Thead about development time

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Cpt-Praxius

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Dec 12, 2005
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Alone during humble bundle, RO 2 was sold more than 100k times, so your source is not accurate at all.

Of course it's not accurate.... there is the humble bundle sales, plus other sales, but I also didn't account for how many copies of the game were sold at full price during pre-order/Beta and official launch which is double the value of the game being sold today (or more depending on which version of the game one buys, deluxe, 4 packs, or both RS and RO2)

$14.99 on sale now is certainly not the same as the $39.99 I originally paid for RO2 + $17.99 I paid for RS later on ($57.98) which equates to four copies of the cheapest copy of the game currently, which is what I based my above estimate off of.

Which is why I said the overall profit of the game is probably higher than what I noted.

There is also the factor of the Humble Bundle where someone could have paid a buck or two for the game.... while others could have spent a lot more, or full price, or more than full price.... it's unknown on our end, which is why I based my previous calculation on the lowest price currently in order to balance between the humble bundle cheap buyers and those who paid full price like I did when the game first came out.

Figured it was a reasonable approach for a ball park guess.

The point being was that the game was gaining profit for TW, even by their own words (regardless of the actual sales #'s) and their claim that content development for the game has to balance out to the profit and demand for the game..... my issue is that the profit and demand was there..... at one point, and the amount of work returned for those who bought the game don't seem to balance out imo, especially when one considered how much of the current content for the game was made by the community vs. what was made by the devs themselves after the game was released.
 
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titsmcgee852

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Feb 27, 2013
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Having RS integrated into RO2 doesn't add players to RO2.... those who like RO2 play RO2. Those who like RS play RS with a small % of players who enjoy going back and forth between the two
The way RS was implemented split the community way way less than what it would had RS become a standalone product. It is definitely more than 'a small percentage' of people that enjoy going between both, otherwise the RS + RO2 servers would never be full... :rolleyes:

RS brought in TONS of players and there is no denying that. It's ironic because the fact that so many people bought RS means that TWI will be able to support both RO2/RS for longer.

The way your argument comes across is "I don't like it, therefore no one else does and it should be removed".
 

Jpz38 Hetzer

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Feb 21, 2013
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RS brought in TONS of players and there is no denying that. It's ironic because the fact that so many people bought RS means that TWI will be able to support both RO2/RS for longer.

This. Rising Storm brought a ton of people in. Some even asked about "the stalingrad mod". Just shows that RS introduces the RO series to people who wouldnt normally buy it, so i for one am glad rs was implemented the way it was.
 

Yoshiro

In Soviet Russia, Yoshiro is a cake
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The point being was that the game was gaining profit for TW, even by their own words (regardless of the actual sales #'s) and their claim that content development for the game has to balance out to the profit and demand for the game..... my issue is that the profit and demand was there..... at one point, and the amount of work returned for those who bought the game don't seem to balance out imo, especially when one considered how much of the current content for the game was made by the community vs. what was made by the devs themselves after the game was released.


Please read my post on the subject. The quote you are remembering says revenue, not profit. You may have missed my post addressing this. http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=1295060&postcount=15

TL: DR, RO 2 cost millions of dollars to develop, and millions more have been spent on post release support.

While you may disagree about the choice of content for the expansion pack (Pacific Front) it is indeed an expansion pack, and we are looking at doing more in the future.

Once this next patch is out, I hope to outline Tripwire's goals for the next set of content to be joining the game (these will be things we are working towards, but may not be things that end up in the game, as situations and plans change, but the community has requested more upfront information so I hope to convince Tripwire to let me post about it).
 

Cpt-Praxius

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 12, 2005
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This. Rising Storm brought a ton of people in. Some even asked about "the stalingrad mod". Just shows that RS introduces the RO series to people who wouldnt normally buy it, so i for one am glad rs was implemented the way it was.

Keep telling yourself that:
http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=35450&from=1356958800000&to=End+Time

^Not including the period of the last Holiday Sales where RS/RO2 didn't make the top 100, every time there was a sale, free weekend, humble bundle weekend, map contest winners added, AND when RS was released, the player counts spiked.... but as you can clearly see, RS didn't improve the player counts overall and the player counts remain basically the exact same as they were before RS came out.

When something new came along, more players joined in or bought the game, but then shortly afterwards the players dwindled away back to what everybody is used to now.

All the effort in getting RS out the door as some "Savior" to RO2 amounted to very little when you look at the larger picture.

So you say that RS introduced a lot of new players to the RO scene..... well RO2 could have done the same (and did) but it doesn't amount to much if you can't retain those new players.... or even the old players.
 

Cwalk

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 25, 2013
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Although I still love RO2 and RS and play them regularly, I have to agree with Praxius that the rate of official content developed entirely by Tripwire is rather slow.

However, this is made up for by the fact that Tripwire supports the modding scene so well. None of the Community Map Contests could have happened without Tripwire's support, not to mention all the various mods available on the Steam Workshop such as the IOM (Although it is annoying that the IOM hasn't been whitelisted yet).

Furthermore, there are all too many game developers that ignore the modding scene in their games altogether, or even flat out discourage it. By these standards, Tripwire is downright benevolent.

So yes, while I would like content a bit more regularly from Tripwire itself, their support of the modding community, and of course the game itself in the form of bug fixes/updates, has enabled this game to endure for over two years, which is proof enough of their success.
 

dibbler67

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2011
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Guys, guys! IOM isn't hasn't been whitelisted or considered for it because I haven't submitted it, not because TWI is dragging their heels or anything.

There are simply certain features that I want to implement (or fix!) that are very expensive in terms of time and my limited resources.
 
Dec 30, 2011
77
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Please read my post on the subject. The quote you are remembering says revenue, not profit. You may have missed my post addressing this. [url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=1295060&postcount=15[/URL]

TL: DR, RO 2 cost millions of dollars to develop, and millions more have been spent on post release support.

While you may disagree about the choice of content for the expansion pack (Pacific Front) it is indeed an expansion pack, and we are looking at doing more in the future.

Once this next patch is out, I hope to outline Tripwire's goals for the next set of content to be joining the game (these will be things we are working towards, but may not be things that end up in the game, as situations and plans change, but the community has requested more upfront information so I hope to convince Tripwire to let me post about it).

If you do plan on releasing new expansions. Please reconsider that players would not purchase skins like Killing Floor. I would gladly pay 5-10 dollars for a new batch of weapon skins. (That fit the time and era) For instance a rusty/battle damaged pack with additional battle-hardened soldier skins. These things are not too difficult and cost-worthy too make. Would be 100% optional compared to the base-game we have now and provide variety to the game. Additionally customization is something I enjoy in games and would love for more variety in-game making our soldiers unique. Having the ability to slightly change weapon models like the MP40 to a folded stock would be any easy small change I would enjoy. Maybe have a character customizer, map specific and can be done in the menu. Your soldier can where field caps, ammo bandoliers. This is just a suggestion that I hope you and your team take into consideration.


Ps. Please allow us to change the weapon grade skin separately from the attachment. Would like to use a brand new Kar 98 without the bayonet.
 

Don Draper

Grizzled Veteran
Sep 6, 2011
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Rising Storm was built in conjunction with Tripwire with many of our staff working on it full time once it went into full production. Its development was paid for by Tripwire. Many games today have dlc/expansions that are built with or by a different team due to where studio resources are at any given point in a development cycle.

Wouldn't the development of rising storm team been completed without TWI anyway? It was originally a Mod before an expansion.
Or was that you saw that it was good and hired them/done a deal?

We take time to do QA passes on these maps before putting them in the game to take out most of the major issues. If we did not it is likely you (or somebody else) would be back here with the complaint that we had put buggy maps in the game.

I disagree, most servers run voting, if they are buggy or people dont like them they simply dont play them and get put down the order.
But we would be talking maps that are reasonable despite bugs.
Take that Univermag map, it is only played on one server where i live, and it is nearly the best map in the game, and it was from the first comp.

That is up to the vehicle mod team, not us what they want to release. However with the carriers at least we are doing alot of work on them internally and they will be joining the beta program soon as they are nearing feature complete status.
Im just talking about a general impression people got early on with release that vehicles would come, and now we might be getting them 2.5yrs later, but through a Mod team.
I think alot of people thought we would have even more vehicle choice than in RO1, The tanks i think are better, but been let down by lack of variety and that has ruined tactical game play.
And because they are better, they are more complex and people being able to mod new vehilces have been hamstrung which has only compounded the problem.

Bugs are prioritized, and some may never get fixed. We try and prioritize the bugs we do address based on player input on the issues. With enough time and money and resources everything is possible, but when it comes to game development, you often have less then enough for all 3 of those items.

Cant say i was impressed with early bug fixing. it was nearly 6 months before a major patch that really made the Game Good. And then Crouch prone etc..only recently.

With most of the player base deciding to give single player a pass, most bugs that did not prevent player progress are not highly prioritized versus other bugs. Bug/feature regression, while never intended, sometimes does happen when complex game systems are changed.

AI in single player could be blamed for that perhaps?
I think it is quite important for players, i play the single player first and finish it, then the multi player, most people do. This is the introduction to the game, you made it, and now are saying it wasn't that important?
And the achievements are important to people with OCD.

As I have explained before, we had a road map leading up to release, and for post release. That road map changed drastically as we handled the post release priority of performance. We initially thought that it would be an issue that several programmers would tackle for a short while, but ended up with many of our content creators having to re-work large parts of the content over a period of months.
I can only take your word on that, i do remember a cruise being taken in december 2011-12.. when customers where asking for the bugs to be fixed.
Nothing was happening. you even released a Fighting in Christmas achievement lol.. i think we had enough of each other at the point.

Some of the content our team was working on was put on hold due to this work (to be picked up later, like the transports and multiplayer campaign), other things were canned (due to various reasons, such as not testing well, feedback from similar things in game already, ect.)

Again, i can only take your word on it.

This isn't true. I would say it is more to the flipside where we did not foresee what an issue it would be for many people to download 200ish meg maps.
But you could have alleviated this by implementing complete less buggy maps as stock if you wanted to?
And i will speculate that perhaps TWI did think there would be more community map making, but that did not happen so they provided an incentive for it with a competion which by that time, performance issues, gameplay issues for some etc.. had driven some people away since the intial fanfare of the launch. (this is just me reading my history of playing RO2 thats all. ) Hence another launch GOTY edition (which should have been the real launch) And then Rising storm, which makes the game not look like RO2 anymore, but its own game RS. IMO.


This is also incorrect, we will always support modding in our projects as long as it is feasible to do so.
Key word feasible.
As much as it is noble given this games origins (make something unreal), I dont think it is feasible to rely on others to supply the content to your games given the RO2 experience going forward.
Im not saying it should be dumped, some great things have come out of it.
But it should run secondary to you releasing payable DLC . I would have much rather, than hoping someone like Harley or Drecks and the rest make a good map.
Perfect example is how great RS is as DLC/expansion etc.. Payable DLC works, money is a great incentive.

I cant believe this has blown out over me thinking you should be thanking us for our patience.
 

RoFanatic

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 16, 2013
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Guys just take a look how many mappers contributed work for ro ost and how many servers hosted custom maps. Ro2 is a dumped down game with horrible gamemechanics to attract more bf and cod players. Nearly no one of the old community plays Ro2. The community is so horrible, servers dont support custom maps (eu based), horrible teamplay with lonleywolfing players, etc. Tunnellayout maps, no flanking possibilities (return to the battlefield, what the hell!!!) Shooting is too easy etc. Just my two cents.
 

Cat_in_da_Hat

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 11, 2006
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Let me throw in another can of worms. (is that a phrase?)

<b>Campaign mode</b>.

Very popular in Australia, mainly because I have promoted it, but its growth has been hampered due to general glitches and bugs (reported) and with balance issues with RS.

I no longer run Rising Storm Campaign Nights because of the balance issues.

Is Campaign mode going to be supported by TWI or should I forget about developing a following for it?
 

RoFanatic

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 16, 2013
93
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If you do plan on releasing new expansions. Please reconsider that players would not purchase skins like Killing Floor. I would gladly pay 5-10 dollars for a new batch of weapon skins. (That fit the time and era) For instance a rusty/battle damaged pack with additional battle-hardened soldier skins. These things are not too difficult and cost-worthy too make. Would be 100% optional compared to the base-game we have now and provide variety to the game. Additionally customization is something I enjoy in games and would love for more variety in-game making our soldiers unique. Having the ability to slightly change weapon models like the MP40 to a folded stock would be any easy small change I would enjoy. Maybe have a character customizer, map specific and can be done in the menu. Your soldier can where field caps, ammo bandoliers. This is just a suggestion that I hope you and your team take into consideration.


Ps. Please allow us to change the weapon grade skin separately from the attachment. Would like to use a brand new Kar 98 without the bayonet.

Worst suggestion i have ever heard!!!
 

Jpz38 Hetzer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 21, 2013
1,715
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I think selling skins is a bad idea, but I wouldnt mind if they sold weapon packs like with killing floor. That wouldnt split up the communtiy at all.
 
Dec 30, 2011
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Worst suggestion i have ever heard!!!

Explain why optional period-friendly customization that is currently unavailable and most-likely will never be by any other means is such a bad idea. I am not talking about having red-tiger and golden ppsh41s. I am talking about things like sniper rifles wrapped in cloth, dark-stained wooden stocks and even factory grade weaponry available alongside the existing 3 skins each weapon has now.

I think selling skins is a bad idea, but I wouldnt mind if they sold weapon packs like with killing floor. That wouldnt split up the communtiy at all.

Weapon packs may be bad idea do to people believing the game is pay-to-win. Imagine how big of a deal the Mk42b would be if you had to purchase it only to unlock it. Now sure there was the Digital Deluxe but that still didn't upset anyone. So maybe if there is a community poll we can get some more guns in the game. Also how would any of the ideas I suggested split the community? Character Customization is a staple of many games like Halo/Gears of War/ Cod. Even if we didn't get payed dlc I would still like the ability to customize my soldier using the in-game already available assets. Things like dirt, rolled-up sleeves, balaclavas, and clean uniforms can still be obtained by reaching a certain honor level but you can revert back if you please. So lets say I am level 80 and would like to still have a backpack with pots/pans along with my new fancy rolled up-sleeves, and maybe even have a clean uniform thanks to my good pal Stalin.
 

Jpz38 Hetzer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 21, 2013
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Explain why optional period-friendly customization that is currently unavailable and most-likely will never be by any other means is such a bad idea. I am not talking about having red-tiger and golden ppsh41s. I am talking about things like sniper rifles wrapped in cloth, dark-stained wooden stocks and even factory grade weaponry available alongside the existing 3 skins each weapon has now.



Weapon packs may be bad idea do to people believing the game is pay-to-win. Imagine how big of a deal the Mk42b would be if you had to purchase it only to unlock it. Now sure there was the Digital Deluxe but that still didn't upset anyone. So maybe if there is a community poll we can get some more guns in the game. Also how would any of the ideas I suggested split the community? Character Customization is a staple of many games like Halo/Gears of War/ Cod. Even if we didn't get payed dlc I would still like the ability to customize my soldier using the in-game already available assets. Things like dirt, rolled-up sleeves, balaclavas, and clean uniforms can still be obtained by reaching a certain honor level but you can revert back if you please. So lets say I am level 80 and would like to still have a backpack with pots/pans along with my new fancy rolled up-sleeves, and maybe even have a clean uniform thanks to my good pal Stalin.

I disagree with charecter customization because it would be to unrealistic. I still say weapon packs are the way to go. If they add the right weapons like carbines and smgs, NOT prototype nonsence, it would be perfectly Fine.
 

PsychoPigeon

Grizzled Veteran
Mar 11, 2006
1,303
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In Unreal
how are bandages, torn uniforms, scars, etc, 'unrealistic'?

Weapon packs? There's hardly any weapons to choose from, the 'community' goes ape **** when something other than a rifle is used by the majority.

The point is moot, TWI have said expansion packs are what's planned for RO
 

TheStranger

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
318
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I have been waiting 2.5 years for them to fix the single player acheivment bug, but intstead they made it worse with rising storm....i like rising storm, but they made something worse that should have been fixed in the first 3 months. Sajer, take off the rose colored glasses.

As I wrote in the thread in the bug report sub forum, it is fixed - I unlocked them all. But I had the same problem as you and the achievements are still unlocked in the multiplayer part of the game - they should just delete them there or unlock all or snyc with the single player.
 

Yoshiro

In Soviet Russia, Yoshiro is a cake
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Oct 10, 2005
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Wouldn't the development of rising storm team been completed without TWI anyway? It was originally a Mod before an expansion.
Or was that you saw that it was good and hired them/done a deal?

The team was put together under Tripwire's direction and offered money for the completion of the project (be it a mod or an expansion). And we told the team (and the public) that based on its quality we would either release it as a free mod or as a paid expansion. During its development and how it was shaping up, we decided to go with the paid expansion route and put full time Tripwire resources on it. So would it have been completed without TWI? It wouldn't exist without TWI. The Rising Storm team have since created a company (Anti-Matter Games) which we have been using as an external resource for additional work.





Don Draper said:
Im just talking about a general impression people got early on with release that vehicles would come, and now we might be getting them 2.5yrs later, but through a Mod team.
I think alot of people thought we would have even more vehicle choice than in RO1, The tanks i think are better, but been let down by lack of variety and that has ruined tactical game play.
And because they are better, they are more complex and people being able to mod new vehilces have been hamstrung which has only compounded the problem.

That was our plan, as well going into the launch. But as I explained in the earlier post, those plans changed due to the issues that come up post launch, and then our focus on Rising Storm.



Don Draper said:
Cant say i was impressed with early bug fixing. it was nearly 6 months before a major patch that really made the Game Good.

I believe we have stated publicly that that GoTY patch/update should have been the minimal quality for the initial release. We released too early and we paid for that in player count and player trust. Due to the way Unreal Engine 3 build process works (called Cooking) it also kept us from patching as much as we would have liked early on (and even now, though we have made improvements to the system since launch. But now we are replacing it completely with a new system) as every patch we released was 8ish Gigs no matter what we changed. While it may not be an issue for some of you, there are many parts of the world with strict bandwith caps (even in the developed world) and players have riots over large, let alone multiple large patches. For a recent example look at Dead Rising 3 patch (13 gigs) for small changes (many modern engines use a system similar to Unreal 3's) and the player reaction.



Don Draper said:
AI in single player could be blamed for that perhaps?
I think it is quite important for players, i play the single player first and finish it, then the multi player, most people do. This is the introduction to the game, you made it, and now are saying it wasn't that important?
And the achievements are important to people with OCD.

The general feedback we got was that the mode just wasn't fun/worth playing (for various reasons. Some want better AI, some want different structure, ect.) We didn't decide it wasn't important, but the player base did so our efforts were better spent in other development.


Don Draper said:
I can only take your word on that, i do remember a cruise being taken in december 2011-12.. when customers where asking for the bugs to be fixed.
Nothing was happening. you even released a Fighting in Christmas achievement lol.. i think we had enough of each other at the point.

Coming off the release of RO 2, most of the team had been crunching (working excessive overtime) for 3 to 6 months and possibly more. Tripwire realized the team needed a break or there wouldn't be much of a team left. Since then Tripwire has given us a company vacation every year, and we have changed how we release products so we do not end up in a crunch situation as bad as we did for RO2's launch.






Don Draper said:
And i will speculate that perhaps TWI did think there would be more community map making, but that did not happen so they provided an incentive for it with a competion

We have held mapping competitions for all of our projects since RO 1 (they have been great for the community so we have no plans to stop).


And then Rising storm, which makes the game not look like RO2 anymore, but its own game RS. IMO.[/quote]





Don Draper said:
But it should run secondary to you releasing payable DLC .

I used the word feasable because due to how middleware works in game engines it can sometimes be very hard to allow modding. So far we have worked with all our middleware partners to allow us to have modding with their tools.

As far as paid DLC goes, we are not against it (see KF), and we do experiment with different kinds of paid DLC (again see KF) to help us understand what works and what players like/dislike. However with the RO community we do not feel that micro-transactional type of DLC will work, which is why we have opted towards the expansion route (the original DLC - except it used to come in a box).

Don Draper said:
I cant believe this has blown out over me thinking you should be thanking us for our patience.

I and Tripwire are thankful for our players patience and understanding. I've taken to answering some of these questions you've posted as much as possible as they keep coming up.
 

Yoshiro

In Soviet Russia, Yoshiro is a cake
Staff member
Oct 10, 2005
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As I wrote in the thread in the bug report sub forum, it is fixed - I unlocked them all. But I had the same problem as you and the achievements are still unlocked in the multiplayer part of the game - they should just delete them there or unlock all or snyc with the single player.

I believe our current plan is to remove them from the multiplayer portion of the game with the next patch. We were hoping to find an easy way to transfer those achievements over to the singleplayer app ID in Steam but that doesn't look like it going to happen.
 

i8pptu

Member
Apr 25, 2011
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I think this just gets back to what people want this game to be, and what this game is.


All of your suggestions sound kind of cool, but is it worth it for tripwire to even start considering those things when people are complaining about many other issues about the game that actually effect us now?


This post is in reply to fourkillmaster, stop posting so fast you guys!!! lol
 
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