The problems with Pistols:

[Mormegil]

I chose mg class and simply dropped my mg at start of round to level up (first the nagant and then the c96, first one is over lvl 25 and second is lvl 50). And I can honestly say that I got more kills and more objectives solely using the pistol than I would have gotten using the mg, so I don't think I wasn't effectively using my class abilities while doing it, and it actually was mostly very fun.

No you weren't effectively using your class. An MGer is NOT suppose to be running into cap. So while you were racking up your kills and cap points, who was providing suppressive or interdicting fire?


That's like saying you were a really good TL, because you got lots of kills with your SMG, while not calling artillery, recon or popping smoke.

 

[Gorgenhuber]

Agreed re. Pistol levelling requirements but for the love of god leave the Mauser C96 requirements as they are, that thing is an absolute beast, a veritable pocket PPSH and the kill points for the unlock should reflect this. It should remain a rarity of the battlefield

 

[Appleshampoo]

I agree wholeheartedly. I've been playing since launch and my pistols are pretty damn low, even after trying to farm them with bots for a day; it was too painful to continue. The pistols are so much fun and the kills from them are even more satisfying than any other kills I get. It'd be nice to see some changes like you proposed.

 

[LordKhaine]

Being level 50 for the C96, Nagant revolver and the TT33 (and being 28 or so for the P38), I'm probably disqualified from commenting on the level up times for the pistols. But their requirements don't seem that outlandish to me. With the proliferation of AT infantry on many maps, and the issuing of pistols for squad leaders in classic, it's not that hard to get your hands on them.

Personally I find I help the team a hell of a lot more using the pistol and AT nades than I do attempting to use the AT rifle (though it does have its uses of course). I never understand people plinking away frontally on tanks 150 metres away with an AT rifle, when they could instead be advancing into the objectives (with an eye towards tossing an AT nade onto the engine deck...)

My personal take on pistols is that the damage is spot on. But I think pistols need some minor tweaking to improve their close range ability. Perhaps slightly increased speed or improved aim time? I also equally feel pistols need some minor nerfing in their long range ability. I think increased sway would really help reduce the 'sniping' you can do with them.

 

[Gudenrath]

No you weren't effectively using your class. An MGer is NOT suppose to be running into cap. So while you were racking up your kills and cap points, who was providing suppressive or interdicting fire?

Sorry, but you are dead wrong. Everyone is supposed to be running into cap, from commanders to mg'ers. It is so annoying seeing someone be commander on grain elevator or apartments "playing their class", or the mock up that they think is playing it, staying by the radio the whole time calling recon planes wasting their extra cap ability. Or the mg staying by the first cap or in church on Spartanovka, sniping random enemy strays, not helping the team one bit. And this is not for the cap points or kill points. Ive got more than enough of those, it is for the team. The team simply wont win if they dont.

EVERYONE is supposed to go to the objective and help cap, and from there they can provide their mg, sniper or radio support to their hearts content. This is especially true for the mg, as in the cap they can set up suppressing fire at the enemy trying to reinforce the defenders.

 

[PhoenixDragon]

Everyone is supposed to be running into cap, from commanders to mg'ers.

Everyone running into the cap is straight-up bad tactics. There are many areas not in the point that are vital for securing it, and teams that put effort into securing them invariably do better than the teams that have everyone rushing to the cap. MGs often contribute more to victory not by being in the point, but by locking down an approach to the point. If they kill more enemies trying to get to the point that way than they would from in the point (Which they almost certainly will) then they've contributed more to victory. Of course it varies from point to point, but in general you want all the area around the cap controlled as well, or the enemy has an easy time picking you off.

 

[Mormegil]

Sorry, but you are dead wrong. Everyone is supposed to be running into cap, from commanders to mg'ers. It is so annoying seeing someone be commander on grain elevator or apartments "playing their class", or the mock up that they think is playing it, staying by the radio the whole time calling recon planes wasting their extra cap ability. Or the mg staying by the first cap or in church on Spartanovka, sniping random enemy strays, not helping the team one bit. And this is not for the cap points or kill points. Ive got more than enough of those, it is for the team. The team simply wont win if they dont.

EVERYONE is supposed to go to the objective and help cap, and from there they can provide their mg, sniper or radio support to their hearts content. This is especially true for the mg, as in the cap they can set up suppressing fire at the enemy trying to reinforce the defenders.

Perhaps on defensive maps. Your example of Spartanovka - the MGer shouldn't be back at church, but neither should they be leading the assault (guess I don't like Rambo MGs). They should be setting up to cut off reinforcements from the flanks (trying to get enfilade fire).

Neither should the TL not be using artillery when it's available and useful on the map.

 

[BuGeris]

Agreed! Lower the requirements to leveling them up and give them more power in action mode.

1. They will lvl up overtime.
2. Who gives a **** about action mode ?

 

[Trotskygrad]

1. They will lvl up overtime.
2. Who gives a **** about action mode ?

his entire point is that it would take an inordinately long amount of time to level them up if you used them like they were intended.

action mode is part of the game, like it or not, and should be considered.

Don't be an inconsiderate person when posting, please.

 

[Buzzles]

The requirements for pistols is lolstastic.

I was looking at the difference between the P38 and the Moisin 1930. The pistol required ~35 kill points to get to level 1, the rifle required 10 or something.

I've currently got more kills on my P38 (158 which is 38/42 towards L4) than I have with my MN1930 and the rifle still holds the higher level (144 kills and it's level 8).

There's also an issue with Anti-Tank rifles. Notably you don't get points for tank damage, only for the kills. Which is +2 team points for a vehicle destroy, plus what ever you get for killing the people inside.

+2 is nothing really. You get +5 to resupplying an MG'er or blowing up an objective.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

To fix 1 problem. Remove the levelling system and enemy weapon loadout! Sad to see a machine gunner throw away his MG to level the pistol. So many bad things in the progression system I do not know where to start...

The leveling system isn't going anywhere, so suggestion it to be removed isn't really an option, let alone a solution.

And as stated in my second post, I didn't create this thread to be another redundant "Remove or Keep Progression" thread, as there's plenty of those around as it is.

I created this thread in order to discuss ways of improving or changing some of the progression system's elements based on the weapons/equipment that suffer the most from it compared to other weapons/equipment that level just fine.

Besides, if you see an MG toss away his MG to run around with the pistol.... Don't complain about it... pick it up and use it.

The requirements for pistols is lolstastic.

I was looking at the difference between the P38 and the Moisin 1930. The pistol required 50 kill points to get to level 1, the rifle required 10 or something.

I've currently got more kills on my P38 (158 which is 38/42 towards L4) than I have with my MN1930 and the rifle still holds the higher level (144 kills and it's level 8).

There's also an issue with Anti-Tank rifles. Notably you don't get points for tank damage, only for the kills. Which is +2 team points for a vehicle destroy, plus what ever you get for killing the people inside.

+2 is nothing really. You get +5 to resupplying an MG'er or blowing up an objective.

Agreed... and while you may have disabled the tank's tracks or other elements on the tank to reduce its effectiveness, you get zero points for that, so you have to try and get a kill from the tank to make any of your shots worthwhile..... but in most cases & angles, you can't do much with the ATR and most often, another team mate (Engineer or Tank Commander) will get the kill before you do....

.... you softened them up, they finish them off.... you get squat.

And yeah, when you point out the requirements for the bolt rifle compared to the pistols.... there's something obviously wrong with the system in that regard.

 

[Nikita]

Besides, if you see an MG toss away his MG to run around with the pistol.... Don't complain about it... pick it up and use it.

This is always an option, but more often than not it will interfere with your own play. If you have to pick up his MG, that could mean your team is down an Engineer, for instance.

Fortunately, the MG unlocks (at least as a German) incentivize proper use to a degree.

In general, though, this kind of rank-at-all-costs mindset does result in several issues.

There's a positive aspect to the progression system too, though, don't get me wrong (some people have figured out just how much capturing/defending objectives goes into leveling, and machine gunners rarely go un-supplied on spawn).

Agreed... and while you may have disabled the tank's tracks or other elements on the tank to reduce its effectiveness, you get zero points for that, so you have to try and get a kill from the tank to make any of your shots worthwhile..... but in most cases & angles, you can't do much with the ATR and most often, another team mate (Engineer or Tank Commander) will get the kill before you do....

.... you softened them up, they finish them off.... you get squat.

You do get an assist point for inflicting damage on an enemy tank--it works somewhat inconsistently, however. I got one today for landing a non-fatal AT nade on a T-34 seconds before our tank finished it. Your point, though, is valid.

 

[JakeWedd]

Tank kills should get way more Points though, same with damaging!

But with pistols, the level up is horrible with the kills required, now, I got Hero Assault and Hero Rifleman, followed by MG and Engineer pretty easily, but to level a pistol past level 12 for me is still a while off, I think my P38's at 12, Nagant is at 12 as well, while the TT33 and the C96 are about at 1 (Dont use them from spawn)

Halfing the kills needed would be good for the pistols for a starter

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

This is always an option, but more often than not it will interfere with your own play. If you have to pick up his MG, that could mean your team is down an Engineer, for instance.

Unless you drop your Engineer weapons, sure.... but since you have carry two primary and two secondary weapons without having to worry about your equipment/grenade loadouts, the only thing you'd really suffer in is the additional weight that slows you down and reduces your stamina.

But once in a while I've been known to pick up an MG, go clear some road blocks & obstacles, then when I was out of Engineer equipment, I headed to the closest wall or sandbags and setup the MG for suppressive fire & support...... when I came across an ammo cache, I'd switch back to my Engineer role, but also still able to switch to MG when needed.

Or Marksman, or Anti-Tank Class, etc.

Fortunately, the MG unlocks (at least as a German) incentivize proper use to a degree.

True.

In general, though, this kind of rank-at-all-costs mindset does result in several issues.

There's a positive aspect to the progression system too, though, don't get me wrong (some people have figured out just how much capturing/defending objectives goes into leveling, and machine gunners rarely go un-supplied on spawn).

True.... for me, ever since the mod days, whenever I see an MG anywhere on the map, I risk my life to chase them down to resupply them as it has always been an easy way of getting some points, while also helping them out.

You do get an assist point for inflicting damage on an enemy tank--it works somewhat inconsistently, however. I got one today for landing a non-fatal AT nade on a T-34 seconds before our tank finished it. Your point, though, is valid.

Yeah I have gotten assists from time to time, but it's rare and most times I end up with no points for the damage I have inflicted.... even so, one assist point for several damaged areas of the tank I inflicted just doesn't seem like much of a reward.

My speciality with the ATR is taking out tracks.... no matter what angle or distance, I always get them stuck in one spot.... now I just have to figure out how to disable the turret consistently.

 

[Cwivey]

The assist point is actually from the Suppression of the crew inside, not from damaging the tank. (Penetrating / damaging hits on a tank do around 30% suppression with the ATR, crew member deaths almost triple that). If anyone dies while they are being "suppressed" by you, you gain one point.

A bit shite if you ask me (and everyone else ), components on the tank should act like players, so you "kill" a component and get X amount of points for it, depending on how important it was.

Summit like 5 points for turret and weapon related components, 4 for the engine, 3 for tracks, 2 for breaks / movement pieces and 1 for just having a shot that damages the armour of a tank (Up to a certain amount so you don't exploit by shooting the same lightly damaging spot over and over).

 

[Piscator]

Unless you drop your Engineer weapons, sure.... but since you have carry two primary and two secondary weapons without having to worry about your equipment/grenade loadouts, the only thing you'd really suffer in is the additional weight that slows you down and reduces your stamina.

But once in a while I've been known to pick up an MG, go clear some road blocks & obstacles, then when I was out of Engineer equipment, I headed to the closest wall or sandbags and setup the MG for suppressive fire & support...... when I came across an ammo cache, I'd switch back to my Engineer role, but also still able to switch to MG when needed.

I know what you mean and I tend to do this as well but I still feel that giving a player the motivation to ditch his role is a bad thing regardless of anything else. However since the last patch I only play Classic mode anyway and the problem does not exist there as people do not care about progression. That being said I levelled my pistols quite a bit due to the fact that SL's only have a bolt rifle there. But Praxius I know that you oppose Classic mode though it was fun playing with you before. I wish I could transfer all the kills to you as I really do not care about this.

I just hate the enemy weapon loadout so much on the realism servers and even when I try to play on those servers I usually quit after 1 min when I hear the russians firing all with MG 34's and germans running around with PPSH's. I know this might sound silly but it ruins the game for me. Immersion gone! Plus the spawn on SL, statistics progression for the avatar and the limitless supply of amphetamines for both sides make realism a no-go for me.

In addition I have grown tired of running around like a rabbit on cocaine twitch-shooting everyone on realism. Fun for a little while but it fades quickly.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

The assist point is actually from the Suppression of the crew inside, not from damaging the tank. (Penetrating / damaging hits on a tank do around 30% suppression with the ATR, crew member deaths almost triple that). If anyone dies while they are being "suppressed" by you, you gain one point.

A bit shite if you ask me (and everyone else ), components on the tank should act like players, so you "kill" a component and get X amount of points for it, depending on how important it was.

Agreed.... the AT Class would be a heck of a lot more popular and at least a bit more useful if that was the case. But you end up hearing of so many players who drop the AT Rifle so they can run faster in order to toss their AT Grenades.... so the AT Rifles are more useless than they were in RO2, especially due to the progression system setting the bar too high on them.

Summit like 5 points for turret and weapon related components, 4 for the engine, 3 for tracks, 2 for breaks / movement pieces and 1 for just having a shot that damages the armour of a tank (Up to a certain amount so you don't exploit by shooting the same lightly damaging spot over and over).

And if you blow up the tank, you should get 8 points.... simply because you're one of the few classes that can take them out, with the exception of Engineers, other Tanks and Commander's Arty. Tanks are pretty brutal against infantry so they should be an important target.

 

[Ducky]

I never did know that an AT rifle was a pistol

 

[Capt.Cool]

Agreed! Lower the requirements for PISTOLS to leveling them up and give them more power in action mode.

 

[Holy.Death]

EVERYONE is supposed to go to the objective and help cap, and from there they can provide their mg, sniper or radio support to their hearts content. This is especially true for the mg, as in the cap they can set up suppressing fire at the enemy trying to reinforce the defenders.

That's where you're incorrect.

Machine gunner is supposed to cover his comrades, not to run into the cap in the first line... He goes into the cap when people who went in before him - those he was supposed to cover on their way inside - has secured the area so he can move up without being shot while on the move. Another way to play as MGer is to defend the certain area from the enemy, allowing rest of the team to catch up and arrive somewhat safely before the enemy will be able to lockdown the area.

If everybody is running into the cap zone then - as someone on the boards once said - "only half of your team will make it and you'll make it only because the enemy had to reload". Yes, people should progress towards the cap, but they should do so with tactic in mind, not by running blindly towards the cap zone.

To comment on the pistols, I have to agree. I only started to use pistols when I had no ammo in my primary weapon or when I had bolt-action rifle and was in CQC.