I pay attention to gameplay ideas and try to keep an open mind, but I tune out appeals to "realism" when I see them because they are often used as poison to shut down other views. One man's realism is another's arcade in a discussion about gameplay mechanics. It's a game.
The other 80% of RO2 players dont want a "realism" mode.
- Thread starter MagyarHonved
- Start date
i actually have to agree with the OP.. no, RO2 doesn't have the same realism as RO1 did.. but nonetheless it suffers from poor gameplay/bugs and those are going to drag on the game regardless of whether it is realistic or not.
yeah. which is why they are fixing them and why this thread is really pointless.
My sentiment exactly.
The point is RO2 is not fun to play.
RO1 was better than ro2 as it does well in realistic fps part, it did get mod of the year award, but what about ro2?
Maybe too easy not rewarding gun fight mechanic,
maybe too realistic not game like map design,
too limited weapon choice, no real sense of variation in weapon handling, weapon characteristics. ( almost every weapon feels and be used same )
Aside from correcting game codes for bug fixes, TWI seriously need game designer who can make interesting fun GAME DESIGN THAT LASTS IF THEY INTEND TO MAKE MONEY WITH RO2 FOR 2 MORE YEARS TO COME.
I and many other ppl want realistic, yet fun to play well planned game design, not too uninteresting/ gamey like current ro2 but realistic yet fun to play game design.
Hell, GRAW2 is much more fun to gun fight, movement feels spot on realistic yet fun to play,
Ppl in TWI really need to play what realistic yet fun FPS is like
i.e. GRAW2, sniper ghost warrior
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I was just playing RO darkest hour last night... and if a gun sights swinging side to side it realism.... you can stick it up your jumper.
After playing RO2 and going back to RO1...there is alot of try hard realistic stuff in RO1 which hinder enjoyment.
I think the way TWI have the game at the moment is pretty good.
But yes..fix the game first not create a wishlist. I prtested this heavily in the Yoshiros post and i refused to vote on that crap poll. Complete garbage....and to be what i thought was a red herring to keep people from thinking why the frack are they on holidays instead of finishing the game.
EDIT: ohh and TWI... Hurry up!! over 3 months....no new maps, a few fixes to bugs that should have been gone on release...and i am losing patience.
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92% of statistics are made up on the spot
___________
Originally Posted by MagyarHonved
statistics mean jack and ****.)
Ludwig:
That's true. If they mattered to you, then you would have never created this super creepy, raged filled post that lacks any intellectual integrity.
____
lol thats funny right there. "Derp I'm going to use a statistic for an argument then contradict myself by saying statistics are meaningless"
btw, it's "jack ****" not "jack and ****"
___________
Originally Posted by MagyarHonved
statistics mean jack and ****.)
Ludwig:
That's true. If they mattered to you, then you would have never created this super creepy, raged filled post that lacks any intellectual integrity.
____
lol thats funny right there. "Derp I'm going to use a statistic for an argument then contradict myself by saying statistics are meaningless"
btw, it's "jack ****" not "jack and ****"
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idk about you but i still see plently of bugs ( suppression not going away, no moans and kill sounds exct.)
This game should have been called "Heroes of Stalingrad"... No red Orchestra in the title. The game would have come out as an attempt to spread a different set of legs and reach a different style of player. RO1 players would have been ok with the idea (If not wanting a proper RO sequel) and maybe even excited and embracing. The game is fine by it's self... a bit buggy but the game in games terms isnt bad. It's fun, fast, doesn't take much thought in comparisant to RO1, but much more thought is needed than most mainstream shooter, and it also has a very high level of detail. But the name Red Orchestra demands a higher level of quality and attention to detail. The MOD and RO1 were this way... not all aspects of it were historical and sometime it too was arcady. But RO2 is such a far step in the opposite direction from RO1 and an even farther step from the mod that It doesnt deserve to be defended as an RO title. I find that there are flawed ideas over at TripWire of what makes this game title right now. Most of those ideas come the the very top 
and that is what has kept this game from being a 10k+ player a day game. But as we see (http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=q35450&jstime=1&from=1315803600000) we havn't managed to break 2000 online at once since Oct. And the biggest flaw is that they dropped much of what made the first games groundbreaking and unique and pulled a CoD to hit the highroad for what they thought would be a money making title.
The player count these days are dismal, with or with-out competitive titles out right now. Players sure as hell aren't avoiding this title because it was so good they all crapped their pants with amazement. They are avoiding it because it's fundamentally flawed. The tanks are broken and have yet to have a home in the game, The cap points are placed seemingly at random with very little thought to strategic importance, menus are still broken, people still lag out and crash, everyone has zoom now to counter campers.... but this newly implemented feature has managed to create the opposite, classes are poorly balanced to the point where a fully upgraded MG has the perk buffs to effectively do the job of every other weapon in the game... pretty successfully.
The only thing I have been able to complement this game on is the fact that the weapons are very fun to shoot. But that by it's self is far from enough to save this game for me. What ever happened to THINKING in a game??
no, not thinking how many more kills i have to get before I can level up my STG copy-cat or my SMG-34... Thinking about How to help my squad and what the safest way to navigate the map is to deploy my squads. Which bunker door I should destroy to cause a new movement path for my team. Complexity, Quality, Red Orchestra level of realism, and teamwork just aren't there. The game should have had a higher level of realism to begin with...The fact that the game is broken in all the ways people have listed is merely icing on the cake.
and that is what has kept this game from being a 10k+ player a day game. But as we see (http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=q35450&jstime=1&from=1315803600000) we havn't managed to break 2000 online at once since Oct. And the biggest flaw is that they dropped much of what made the first games groundbreaking and unique and pulled a CoD to hit the highroad for what they thought would be a money making title. The player count these days are dismal, with or with-out competitive titles out right now. Players sure as hell aren't avoiding this title because it was so good they all crapped their pants with amazement. They are avoiding it because it's fundamentally flawed. The tanks are broken and have yet to have a home in the game, The cap points are placed seemingly at random with very little thought to strategic importance, menus are still broken, people still lag out and crash, everyone has zoom now to counter campers.... but this newly implemented feature has managed to create the opposite, classes are poorly balanced to the point where a fully upgraded MG has the perk buffs to effectively do the job of every other weapon in the game... pretty successfully.
The only thing I have been able to complement this game on is the fact that the weapons are very fun to shoot. But that by it's self is far from enough to save this game for me. What ever happened to THINKING in a game??
no, not thinking how many more kills i have to get before I can level up my STG copy-cat or my SMG-34... Thinking about How to help my squad and what the safest way to navigate the map is to deploy my squads. Which bunker door I should destroy to cause a new movement path for my team. Complexity, Quality, Red Orchestra level of realism, and teamwork just aren't there. The game should have had a higher level of realism to begin with...The fact that the game is broken in all the ways people have listed is merely icing on the cake.
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Problem:
TI released a game which prided itself on realism, then decided to release a successor which people found out was all CoD just before it was released. I didn't actually hear anything till I saw the WTF Is video but eh.
Problem: Game is so buggy that it's unplayable and the devs seem to be focusing on trying to keep their fans around by promising a realism mode which annoys their new CoD immigrants.
End result: Everyone loses. I don't have anything against that, more games like this should die a horrible death even if I preorder them. It's like Dawn of War turning into Company of Heroes or Linkin Park turning into Bieber. RO1 people wish the game was RO1, RO2 people think the game should be what they bought. Back to Killing Floor till then? Almost a six medic.
TI released a game which prided itself on realism, then decided to release a successor which people found out was all CoD just before it was released. I didn't actually hear anything till I saw the WTF Is video but eh.
Problem: Game is so buggy that it's unplayable and the devs seem to be focusing on trying to keep their fans around by promising a realism mode which annoys their new CoD immigrants.
End result: Everyone loses. I don't have anything against that, more games like this should die a horrible death even if I preorder them. It's like Dawn of War turning into Company of Heroes or Linkin Park turning into Bieber. RO1 people wish the game was RO1, RO2 people think the game should be what they bought. Back to Killing Floor till then? Almost a six medic.
I don't mind it whether a game is realistic or arcade, but the gameplay should be consistent. Which in my opinion currently isn't the case in RO.
I've told my opinion a lot of times so I'll leave it with my summary I think that long range is too campy without people advancing, and that cqc is too run and gun.
The pacing of the game is not really consistent in that sense, outside you must play very campy while in building you need to run around and keep moving, the gap to me seems to big.
Personally I would rather have it that in realism mode, cqc things were slowed down a bit. Like for instance a longer time to go into ironsight and perhaps a slightly slower moving speed (not that the movement speed is necessarily too fast but with ping delay hitting a moving target at short range is more difficult than it should be). And in long range the firefights dont happen as its very easy to shoot someone once seen but very difficult to spot on time. It would be more fun in my opinion if long range shooting had some more difficulty to it like more sway.
For the arcade mode, i think that in ironsight you should not have free aim, and perhaps even when hipshooting. Free aim seriously changes the way your mouse and character handles and scares away people that like to have control that feels responsive.
Similary the zoom in long range makes the effective fighting distance much longer, and creates a campy atmosphere. I think that it would be better if enemies were actually easier to spot. This by both decreasing the range of fighting by decreasing the zoom in arcade mode. And perhaps like in Roost and at times in the early HOS beta make enemies slightly emit light so they are easier to spot. Finally the ability to hit far in the distance should be made slightly more difficult with more sway.
Very few people in other forums recommend ROHOS while it got loads more marketing than RO2 and the comments are often not just performance based. People simply do not like the gameplay, as do a lot of old RO players do not like the gameplay. And In my opinion thats due to a lack of consistency, multiple systems that were put together but not fully tested and tweaked for how they work in combination.
I don't care for realism that much yet I voted for the option with the realism changes, because the examples given there will likely make the overall game experience the most consistent.
I've told my opinion a lot of times so I'll leave it with my summary I think that long range is too campy without people advancing, and that cqc is too run and gun.
The pacing of the game is not really consistent in that sense, outside you must play very campy while in building you need to run around and keep moving, the gap to me seems to big.
Personally I would rather have it that in realism mode, cqc things were slowed down a bit. Like for instance a longer time to go into ironsight and perhaps a slightly slower moving speed (not that the movement speed is necessarily too fast but with ping delay hitting a moving target at short range is more difficult than it should be). And in long range the firefights dont happen as its very easy to shoot someone once seen but very difficult to spot on time. It would be more fun in my opinion if long range shooting had some more difficulty to it like more sway.
For the arcade mode, i think that in ironsight you should not have free aim, and perhaps even when hipshooting. Free aim seriously changes the way your mouse and character handles and scares away people that like to have control that feels responsive.
Similary the zoom in long range makes the effective fighting distance much longer, and creates a campy atmosphere. I think that it would be better if enemies were actually easier to spot. This by both decreasing the range of fighting by decreasing the zoom in arcade mode. And perhaps like in Roost and at times in the early HOS beta make enemies slightly emit light so they are easier to spot. Finally the ability to hit far in the distance should be made slightly more difficult with more sway.
Very few people in other forums recommend ROHOS while it got loads more marketing than RO2 and the comments are often not just performance based. People simply do not like the gameplay, as do a lot of old RO players do not like the gameplay. And In my opinion thats due to a lack of consistency, multiple systems that were put together but not fully tested and tweaked for how they work in combination.
I don't care for realism that much yet I voted for the option with the realism changes, because the examples given there will likely make the overall game experience the most consistent.
I agree with that, you can give this game a RO1 mode and it wont do any good.
The "RO vets" will play it for 2 months and then leave it just as they did with RO1
Advocating more sway (i.e. a "random" factor not influenced very much by skill) but advocating removal of free aim (which isnt random, it can be controlled by learning it through playing) seems a bit weird to me if you want to scare people away less.
I also don't think you can really divide the gameplay into long range and cqc atm, at least on most maps. And there's no real problem in not being able to see far away people easily while running/moving imo, that's how it should be. Otherwise, what's the point of camouflage/good positioning?
I think most of the problems in game play aren't down to the actual playing mechanics themselves/realism (moving, shooting), but everything around it. The rest of the game more or less encourages you to play a certain way by either giving you treats or punishing you depending on what kind of person you are. It's not really team play oriented at the moment (in terms of encouraging players, I know that theoretically the tools are there).
The squad system is inaccessible due to a bad UI, SL's and commanders have few ways of reaching out to their subordinates other than shouting at them via VOIP. Squads aren't encouraged to stay together very much, you rarely know who or where your SL/commander is or who the other SL's are, or where they are spawning. Commands are bunched together with regular chat, in the same color, making it hard to spot during combat. Same goes for team chat. All this could be fixed.
Many aspects not only do not encourage team play, but encourage e-peen kill count obsession and lone wolves. By this I obviously mean leveling up, the stats page (which is bugged) and having a separate kills column on the scoreboard (which is also badly designed, even compared to RO1). There's no after rounds chat, isolating people even more. Add to that how there's few ways to really flank the enemy on most maps (some are better than others), also encouraging mindless surging forwards.
Now, I do love RO2 actually, or that which is its core which I believe is still RO. But there is a lot of stuff (mostly design decisions apparently) around it either unnecessary or actively detracting from what could make it, for me (and at least a few people I know), perfect. Just wanted to add another perspective for the devs.
I also don't think you can really divide the gameplay into long range and cqc atm, at least on most maps. And there's no real problem in not being able to see far away people easily while running/moving imo, that's how it should be. Otherwise, what's the point of camouflage/good positioning?
I think most of the problems in game play aren't down to the actual playing mechanics themselves/realism (moving, shooting), but everything around it. The rest of the game more or less encourages you to play a certain way by either giving you treats or punishing you depending on what kind of person you are. It's not really team play oriented at the moment (in terms of encouraging players, I know that theoretically the tools are there).
The squad system is inaccessible due to a bad UI, SL's and commanders have few ways of reaching out to their subordinates other than shouting at them via VOIP. Squads aren't encouraged to stay together very much, you rarely know who or where your SL/commander is or who the other SL's are, or where they are spawning. Commands are bunched together with regular chat, in the same color, making it hard to spot during combat. Same goes for team chat. All this could be fixed.
Many aspects not only do not encourage team play, but encourage e-peen kill count obsession and lone wolves. By this I obviously mean leveling up, the stats page (which is bugged) and having a separate kills column on the scoreboard (which is also badly designed, even compared to RO1). There's no after rounds chat, isolating people even more. Add to that how there's few ways to really flank the enemy on most maps (some are better than others), also encouraging mindless surging forwards.
Now, I do love RO2 actually, or that which is its core which I believe is still RO. But there is a lot of stuff (mostly design decisions apparently) around it either unnecessary or actively detracting from what could make it, for me (and at least a few people I know), perfect. Just wanted to add another perspective for the devs.
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Thats just it. RO1 was so good the vets didn't abandon it. I have played it from release date right up thru RO2's release date
In fact, I ended up buy three other copies for friends and family.Besides, for all the bugs and optimization that is suppossed to be needed for this game, I really only experience the Server Browser delay that's worth mentioning. Annoying but certainly not gamebreaking. For the most part, the rest of the game actually runs rather well for me. I suspect a lot of other players find the issue of realism much more important than some of the bugs they may be experiencing if at all. I'm not saying that some of the bugs others are having aren't real or aren't important to fix, but please don't assume that just because some of you have those problems, that all the rest of us are suffering from them.
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Oh boy. If anything, weapons are too balanced. See: exegerated vertical LMG recoil, PPSH stick mag, MP40-II,...
Ohh please, Ost came out in 2006 (which means it had been out for 4 years before you joined this community), and many of us had been playing it via the mod since 2003. Yes the playerbase had shrunk by 2010, because we had been playing the same game for 7 years straight at that time, 7 friggen years of the same maps, the same bugs, the same everything (well not everything, we lost many of RO's best maps with Ost). Yeah, we were ready for a sequal to be released about then, and Ro2 was supposed to have been out by then aswell, but TWI stumbled upon KF and decided to make that instead, leaving Ost behind for years without any further development (Ost was put on ice back in 2009, a year before you got here).
Take thouse 2 months and stuff them up where the sun don't shine, you came late to the party and you have only yourself to blame for that. Some of us have been here for 8 going on 9 years now, so don't think you can lecture us about the history of this community.
And they didnt play it either?Thats just it. RO1 was so good the vets didn't abandon it. I have played it from release date right up thru RO2's release date
If I bought 3 copies for friends I'd have to kidnap them and force them at gun point to play the game and thats just not who I am.
The sun is shining out of my *** so I cant put them there sorry.
I think I started playing in 2008 but Im not 100% sure.
Have your realism mode but if I need 2 secs to bring my gun up or if I feel like I remote control a robot and not my body I will feel like killing some real people.
I think the should give the russians an ak47 so they can own the germans.
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Sway doesn't have to be random, its often very periodically and could be implemented like that. Next to that its change could be slow enough that a human could counter act its movement. Its not like a weapon becomes more inaccurate, it still fires where it aims at.
But from a control point keeping a constant input output relation with a random disturbance is actually better than a varying input output relation that can only be measured by vision.
Vision is one of the slowest senses in your body and goes with about a 200ms delay before you actually recognize something that you see. Through a lifetime of practice you are generally really good at guess what sort of sensory output gives what movement in your muscles, together with the very fast proprioceptive "position" sensors in your body.
You can learn to use free aim but generally learning to use it is simply making sure you move your gun so much its at the extreme end of the free aim radius so at that point your mouse and gun become coupled again. Or you use the moment you just put up your ironsight at which time the gun is always at the dead center of your screen.
The main point that I have against it is that using ones arms is one of the easiest things to do in real life, you have a life full of experience in training it. By having free aim you take away the ability to use a lot of the training you have in controlling your arm, and will have to learn to use something you can do near perfect without thinking in real life.
In hipshooting free aim got a big advantage which is primarily it stops people in a game without ironsights to just put a tag on the center of the screen. But in ironsights you already have a sight dot, which means at that point free aim loses its adventageous purpose. And in that case its better to have an external disturbance predictable and controllable, than a varying input output relation.
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The issue with the game IMO isn't individual functions but its how the functions work together, and my summary for that is that the overal gameplay in close combat is too rambo and at long range is too campy. There is nothing wrong with long range being campy, but then close range should be more campy as well. There is nothing wrong with short range being rambo but long range should be rambo then as well. The issue is the consistency, especially since every weapon can be used at range.
Arcade players that come upon long range enemies will find the game too campy, Realism players that will come upon short range will find the game too run and gun. At the moment the overall gameplay experience simply isn't consistent. You cannot blame the player for that in the end the player play in the way that gives them the best results. The key thing in a first person shooter are always moving around and shooting stuff on a basic level, and if you make those aspects such that the best way to play the game results in tactical play then its mission accomplished.
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