The notion of perk roles

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Johnny Darko

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 7, 2010
254
13
0
The biggest issue with KF2's class balance is rooted in how trash-killing and big zed takedowns go now.

Almost every perk has some way to deal with trash effectively now, but only some perks have the ability to take on big zeds well. This makes pure trash killers like the Commando undesirable because while they clear trash well, so does everyone else. On the flip side, they can't do a thing to the enemies that will most often cause wipes. Thus, they are disregarded.

On the polar other end of this problem lies Demolitions. A perk so specialized that it actually is locked into fulfilling its role. Yet, because it cannot trash clean, it's disregarded. After all, the other non-Commando perks can all trash clean AND kill big zeds. Why would you take Demolitions in? It offers help against FPs, but you lose a lot of effectiveness in the process when you could play a different perk and do so much more. It's absurd.

Firebug, a perk meant to trash clean, has the Microwave Gun, extremely effective on Scrakes and very effective on FPs as well. For whatever reason everyone thinks this is fine because there have been many bugfixes to the issues that made Firebug even MORE effective, but it still resides at the top as the perk that can do literally anything and get away with it. It trashcleans the best due to Zed Shrapnel which is obnoxious, leaving the Commando even more out in the cold. It has no weakness to either of the big Zeds and can take both out, when most perks have issues with one or the other as a tradeoff. There is simply no weakness whatsoever; everyone could pick Firebug on HoE and it would (and does) work. Even the Patriarch will be instantly killed by this when apparently Demolitions is so scary to Tripwire that he isn't allowed to do any damage to either of the bosses.

Berserker has its share of issues too but lesser so. At least you need a Medic to make Zerker able to blitz Scrakes and to a lesser extent FPs effortlessly. Players have been scared off by a minor health nerf and bringing the Zweihander's damage to reasonable range so this is generally ignored unless you bring up Zerkwalling.
 

ScrakeMorgendorffer

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 16, 2015
582
0
0
...everyone is just asking TWI to make it so THEY can kill the big guys easily with their intended class all Rambo like. If average people can take down big Zeds with any class this game is ruined imo.
I'm inclined to agree - most of the sentiment I read and hear from players is that they don't want to have to rely on their team in order to survive.

In effect, co-op game without an actual co-op theme.
 

silverlighted

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 19, 2013
883
10
0
...apparently Demolitions is so scary to Tripwire that he isn't allowed to do any damage to either of the bosses.../QUOTE]

lmao

I'm inclined to agree - most of the sentiment I read and hear from players is that they don't want to have to rely on their team in order to survive.

In effect, co-op game without an actual co-op theme.

Your summation is a bit unfair.
People do want the co-op theme. What they don't want is the loss of the majority and/or key perks being a death sentence for the remaining players.
 

Mr. Someguy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
245
0
0
The biggest issue with KF2's class balance is rooted in how trash-killing and big zed takedowns go now.

Almost every perk has some way to deal with trash effectively now, but only some perks have the ability to take on big zeds well. This makes pure trash killers like the Commando undesirable because while they clear trash well, so does everyone else. On the flip side, they can't do a thing to the enemies that will most often cause wipes. Thus, they are disregarded.

On the polar other end of this problem lies Demolitions. A perk so specialized that it actually is locked into fulfilling its role. Yet, because it cannot trash clean, it's disregarded. After all, the other non-Commando perks can all trash clean AND kill big zeds. Why would you take Demolitions in? It offers help against FPs, but you lose a lot of effectiveness in the process when you could play a different perk and do so much more. It's absurd.

Firebug, a perk meant to trash clean, has the Microwave Gun, extremely effective on Scrakes and very effective on FPs as well. For whatever reason everyone thinks this is fine because there have been many bugfixes to the issues that made Firebug even MORE effective, but it still resides at the top as the perk that can do literally anything and get away with it. It trashcleans the best due to Zed Shrapnel which is obnoxious, leaving the Commando even more out in the cold. It has no weakness to either of the big Zeds and can take both out, when most perks have issues with one or the other as a tradeoff. There is simply no weakness whatsoever; everyone could pick Firebug on HoE and it would (and does) work. Even the Patriarch will be instantly killed by this when apparently Demolitions is so scary to Tripwire that he isn't allowed to do any damage to either of the bosses.

Berserker has its share of issues too but lesser so. At least you need a Medic to make Zerker able to blitz Scrakes and to a lesser extent FPs effortlessly. Players have been scared off by a minor health nerf and bringing the Zweihander's damage to reasonable range so this is generally ignored unless you bring up Zerkwalling.

I agree with much of what was said here. Commando is good, but Gunslinger does his job, but better. And Firebug can do anyone's job. In my experience, the only weakness to Firebug is the player, who often gets killed by Scrakes or Fleshpounds because they forget they aren't invincible... Firebug could use some adjustments, Zed Shrapnel for instance does Demo better than Demo, and clears trash with ease. And personally I feel like the Husk should be 100% invulnerable to fire, you'd think fire wouldn't hurt a creature whose internal organs are literally aflame!

Demo has problems but despite that I'm enjoying my time playing with that perk. If anything I just think it needs either a carry-space perk like Support, or a pistol damage perk like Commando, in order to effectively defend itself while owning the RPG-7. That said, the RPG-7 does an excellent job of clearing out mobs of trash.

Berserker is alright, he can solo the big ones, but doing that requires time and skill. If you can parry every swipe, and still get enough hits in to kill, all the power to you. Although this is much easier with the Pulverizer.
 

Johnny Darko

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 7, 2010
254
13
0
Demo has problems but despite that I'm enjoying my time playing with that perk. If anything I just think it needs either a carry-space perk like Support, or a pistol damage perk like Commando, in order to effectively defend itself while owning the RPG-7. That said, the RPG-7 does an excellent job of clearing out mobs of trash.
Either of those would be a boon, even though the Medic pistol is a pretty good sidearm. The RPG does clear out mobs well, but doing so consumes valuable ammo, which you have to ration out carefully. In general, Demolitions is a lot weaker on his own than any other perk currently in the game and requires a trash cleaning perk on the team to save him a lot of grief. This is good design and how the other perks in the game should be (With the exception of Commando, another perk whose technically good design makes it inferior due to balance issues), but aren't. The point of my post wasn't that Demolitions should be boosted up to the levels of the other perks in terms of trash cleaning ability, rather that the other perks be looked over and adjusted, plus a rework to Demolitions' damage.

Berserker is alright, he can solo the big ones, but doing that requires time and skill. If you can parry every swipe, and still get enough hits in to kill, all the power to you. Although this is much easier with the Pulverizer.
While this is true, it's much easier for Zerk to solo big zeds than most other perks. With a Medic it becomes truly brainless, however.

Speaking of Medic, I suppose I should have mentioned in my first post that it's not really related to the issues I'm talking about balance wise, as I was discussing zed killing effectiveness which isn't the point of the Medic perk at all and thus comparisons are a bit silly. I think Medic's in a good place right now as far as balance goes. His weapons do just enough of a job at self defense while having an ability to slightly hinder the big zeds with leg stumbling so that they can be taken down easier by his teammates. That's really neat and I like it a lot.
 

xmrmeow

Active member
Mar 23, 2015
1,005
7
38
Any class could do anything? Try to kill a fleshpound with the best firebug weapon on kf1 on hoe. Try to do the same with commando, or berserker. Then try to kill a scrake with firebug or commando. It doesn't work unless you pour out a lot of ammo, as these perks aren't supposed to be killing these zeds.

To my memory, the only classes that could effectively kill scrakes on hoe in kf1 were sharpshooter and berserker, and the only classes that could effectively kill FPs were sharpshooter and demo. I think it should stay this way in kf2 unless you're getting almost all headshots with some other precision shooter class like commando or gunslinger, and classes like firebug that take out hordes of small zeds with ease shouldn't be able to hurt large zeds.
 

Escadin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 19, 2013
1,567
24
0
To my memory, the only classes that could effectively kill scrakes on hoe in kf1 were sharpshooter and berserker, and the only classes that could effectively kill FPs were sharpshooter and demo.

You either haven't played any of the updates or your memory is really foggy.
 

weeman2412

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 11, 2010
359
48
0
Currently all classes have a way of soloing the big guys ( 6 player) and it is skill based. It's just only 1% of the population will be able to pull it off. Just look on you tube.

Ah yes the top 1% that players nothing by situational test room, and then gets rekt in a real game. :rolleyes:

The only skills you need in Killing Floor 2 is knowing which perks are trash and which are winners. The rest takes care of itself. Let me give you a clue, playing demolition, support, or commando is a waste of time. Playing without berserker and medic on the team is a waste of time.
 
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Mr. Someguy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
245
0
0
The only skills you need in Killing Floor 2 is knowing which perks are trash and which are winners. The rest takes care of itself. Let me give you a clue, playing demolition, support, or commando is a waste of time. Playing without berserker and medic on the team is a waste of time.

And I bet you're the guy that always joins a game with 2 Gunslingers already on the team, and then proceeds to click Gunslinger. :rolleyes:

This thread is about perk roles, you've already expressed that you believe all perks should be trash clearers and giant slayers.
 
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weeman2412

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 11, 2010
359
48
0
And I bet you're the guy that always joins a game with 2 Gunslingers already on the team, and then proceeds to click Gunslinger. :rolleyes:

This thread is about perk roles, you've already expressed that you believe all perks should be trash clearers and giant slayers.

And you're the guy that is both bad at the game and intentionally play crap perks to ruin games, good to know. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: