The Nature of Unlocks

[Demonic Spoon]

So, PPShs won't come with the drum mag for balance reasons. Okay.

..They get the drum mag later.


I'm not too well-versed in the game mechanics here, but how exactly does that solve the balance problem, rather than just delaying it until people grab the unlock?


This is a general question - how are they going to make sure that unlocks aren't the only thing people use?

 

[Nylle]

There are manny things and details we don't know yet. Like how the weapons handle. I'm pretty shure the PPSH wont be overpowerd.
Good point though!

 

[Demonic Spoon]

My point is that by saying, "The PPSh with the drum mag would be OP if it was given to everyone at the start, so we're going to push it down the unlock line!" implicitly says you're getting more powerful with unlocks.

I'm a little bit paranoid because TF's last game, KF, did work on the "Level up to become more powerful" mantra (even though it was coop). I'm guessing TF isn't stupid enough to introduce unlock-to-be-viable-in-combat in a PVP game, but so far I haven't seen anything to suggest that this is an example of anything else.

So, what I'm asking is, assuming TF has a mechanic to deal with this, "What is it"... In the unlikely chance that there isn't a mechanic to deal with this, my question is, "What the ****, guys?"

 

[breadtruck]

Germans survived against the PPSH in RO1, Im confident we can do it again the second time around

 

[Demonic Spoon]

Germans survived against the PPSH in RO1, Im confident we can do it again the second time around

Not the point. If the PPSh with the drum mag is balanced against the Germans on a given map, then the PPSh without it is underpowered. In RO1, maps were balanced by a number of things like reinforcements and how well the map objectives favored you. The STG-44 was pretty blatantly better than most other things in the maps that had it, for example, but it didn't need nerfing, because the maps were made with it in mind.

TW is going for a different type of balance here, from what I can tell. I'm assuming there's -something- about the PPSh drum mag being an unlock that will make it worse or limited or in some way not just a complete upgrade for whomever has acquired it.

 

[SiC-Disaster]

Probably holding it back untill the Germans have been able to get the MP40-II with it's double magazines.

 

[MeFirst]

Indeed a good question. Im not a fan of the unlock systems that just give you "better weapons" which means that you usually youst get more, damage, a better accuracy etc. Im more a friend of the thing tf2 does and im not talking about hats. You can say about the hat thing whatever you want but there are basically no "better weapons." The unlocks there mostly give you the opportunity to play a class different.

Regarding on my experience in RO1 I dont think compared to the normal magazine the drum mag will be OP because but what bothers me is the way a lot of people might play the game on public server. In RO1 and its mods like DH I always have the feeling that a lot of people are not playing to be on top of the scoreboard, of course they still want to win the map but it isnt really bothering them how much kills they got and how perfect their k/d ratio is. I always had the feelig that unlock systems like in call of duty and bad company 2 motivate the player too much to play for his stats alone, because he needs to get 10 more kills with weapon x to get the next unlock and he will forget the map objectives at all. Of course there are always people who just want to be on top of the scoreboard and will trying to collect as much kills as they can and completly ignore and defending a point on the map. But as I said im afraid with this unlock system we might see a lot of more people like that.

PS: Yes im aware that there eventually will be mods that change that but right now we are talking about the main game and not mods.

 

[BlackLabel]

Cant we wait with assumptions what is unbalanced what is not until we actually played THE GAME ?

sheesh i need to stock up on popcorn...

how are they going to make sure that unlocks aren't the only thing people use?

Weapon cap per map maybeh ? eh eh ?

 

[Pig]

Probably holding it back untill the Germans have been able to get the MP40-II with it's double magazines.

Which is exactly the point of the OP. Beeing more powerful with unlocks.





The OP already explained it enough and this is also something i'am worried about. How do they limit all the unlocks so not everyone is running around with a better version of his class in the future

 

[mchaza]

there better be server options to tweak the settings of all guns, that would really help regulate weapons in servers and still allow people who like the weapons to use it without removing it completely.

 

[Miro!]

there better be server options to tweak the settings of all guns, that would really help regulate weapons in servers and still allow people who like the weapons to use it without removing it completely.

I will just correct u there.
THERE WILL BE OPTIONS to weak what ever u want on ur server, so no worries

 

[Actin]

It's better to have enemies coming in with the easy-to-use drum mag ppsh when a lot of players are used to the weapon handling, so a few weeks of practice before the mowers come.
It's more of a 'let's delay it till the rest got some skill with the rifle to take them down'.

And it can't be stressed enough that nobody knows how it exactly will work.
So yeah it's a concern, but I am personally not worried at all.
The clans will have picked it out already in beta if it was not a thorough considered mechanic

 

[UsF]

The Ppsh with drum mags had a higher jam rate than the one with stick magazines. Since jamming seems to not be in the game, as it probably would annoy a lot of people, my guess is that it is maybe balanced either by the amount of people that are allowed to use it, the amount of ammo a drum mag Ppsh gets to start with or some other system that maybe prevents the instant reuse of a drum Ppsh on fast death, so there is a more personal limit, depending on time.

I assume the limit will be with the starting ammunition, giving the drum mag longer sustained fire capacity with less overall ammo might balance it and make it a choice for close combat, while the stick magazine is more versatile and allows you to fight short range as well as medium, due to the amount of ammo you get.

 

[C_Gibby]

Well, don't forgot that the Axis side has better light machine guns.

 

[Reise]

Not the point. If the PPSh with the drum mag is balanced against the Germans on a given map, then the PPSh without it is underpowered. In RO1, maps were balanced by a number of things like reinforcements and how well the map objectives favored you. The STG-44 was pretty blatantly better than most other things in the maps that had it, for example, but it didn't need nerfing, because the maps were made with it in mind.

TW is going for a different type of balance here, from what I can tell. I'm assuming there's -something- about the PPSh drum mag being an unlock that will make it worse or limited or in some way not just a complete upgrade for whomever has acquired it.

Balance in RO isn't like some games where they just give one gun advantages and another disadvantages.

It has a lot more to do with how many of said guns there are in a map and how they can be countered with tactics within that map. I'd wager the drums are left as unlocks because (historical reasons aside) by the time they start appearing in number, people will be more comfortable with confronting the PPSH, making the balance factor again rest on the map and the tactics surrounding it. People who finally do get the drums will see it as a straight upgrade I'm sure.

Every gun is lethal in RO, it really just boils down to how they're used and in what number. Making drums an unlock really just eases the players into RO2's new representation of the PPSh.

 

[Serathis]

Would be nice if I could reset the unlock for the delux stuff but keep the badges.

 

[Nar6]

You only need ro1 to get the badges, you have not to preorder !
(If i have well understood)

 

[monster]

Its not about balance, its about selling to people who like games that entitle them to toys, and scripted wins.

Its a marketing tactic, and it works.

Terrible for gaming, good for game sellers.

 

[Das Bose]

You only need ro1 to get the badges, you have not to preorder !
(If i have well understood)

Correct..


Owners of the original Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45 will also receive the following special weapons and items in Red Orchestra 2:

Day 1 unlock of the Kar98 and Mosin rifle bayonets

Special in-game item - Russian Guards Badge and German Assault Badge

 

[AngelsMedic]

As long as I get my 98k, I'm fine with anything else.