The Mysteries of That other Shotgun

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Zeron

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 30, 2010
489
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Somewhere Over The Rainbow...
The only thing i ever complained about level 5 support spawning with the shotgun was you spawned with so little ammo it wasn't funny. Compared to medic and SS that spawn with 100% ammo it just irritated me, personally i prefer spawning with the hunting over the regular shotty just because it has a crapload more ammo available.

Silly people. Nobody actually buys ammo for the hunting shotty. You sell it and rebuy it like a crossbow.
 

ShyMiningStar

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 5, 2010
61
16
0
Wild pigs fly?

Do you know what a forest is? (If not pls google it) There are animals some of them are called wild pigs/hog they are actualy dangerous if you hit it and it doesn't die. You may not know hunters hunt those things. Beceause you asked if they fly I assume you think they only go for birds?

*Sorry I was mistaking about not using the hunting shotung for hunting
In early years lets say something about 35 years ago the hunting shotung was the standard weapon to go hunting it boiled down to 3 things depending on which bullets you had in the barrels:

1.Those with the high amount of little round peas: you used it to shot birds or rabbits (soft animals) (because of the high amount of round peas in the shell it had to be thin peas so you didn't **** up the little animal so you can cook it better like if it was blown to pieces) or for the birds because you can't hit the bird easily so something with a big spread radius helps if it flys.
2.Those who were a bit thicker round peas but not so many round peas in a single shell: You used it for a wolf.
3.You also could get single bullets in your barrel so you had only 2 bullets in each barrel that's what they used to shot on wild pigs.

Nowadays the bullets are skinnier and a bullet which is skinnier flys further than a thick bullet.
 
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timur

FNG / Fresh Meat
It isn't that hard to make the hunting a useful weapon on wave one: if you are in a larger map (say, West London) then you do a bit of strafing to bunch up the zeds. Not that hard, really. If you are in a closed level (say, Bedlam) they group up by default.

Yes, ammo is expensive via the trader; it is also rather plentiful via random spawns. I always buy the regular shotgun after wave one, and just keep the hunting ammo topped up with ammo finds around the level. Since it doesn't get used all that often through the first three or four waves, refusing to buy ammo isn't a problem.

Im not saying its impossible, just that i personally wish that Id kept the normal shotty for it. I mean, I know Im complaining alot here, but it gets really annoying fast when you know that just 1 perk down, youd get a weapon better suited to wave 1.

You know what would be amazing? spawning with both shottys. The support can acrry it after all.
 
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Johnny Darko

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 7, 2010
254
13
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You know what would be amazing? spawning with both shottys. The support can acrry it after all.
If they both spawned with minimal ammo this could work out. After all, even with both shotguns it's less "money" you've spawned with than say, the Berserker.

However I'd honestly like to see them just make Lv6 spawn with a full ammo normal Shotgun and leave Lv5 with the low ammo Shotgun.
 

CandleJack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 2, 2009
3,399
1,059
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VIC
Im not saying its impossible, just that i personally wish that Id kept the normal shotty for it. I mean, I know Im complaining alot here, but it gets really annoying fast when you know that just 1 perk down, youd get a weapon better suited to wave 1.

You know what would be amazing? spawning with both shottys. The support can acrry it after all.

My thoughts on this:



L6 Support spawning with the Hunting Shotgun: just because it's the Tier 2, not because it's a better gun.

I personally would rather switch around the shotguns and perk levels and leave it at that. :IS2:
 

9_6

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2009
2,461
727
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Hunting shotty is the answer to a scrake that charges at you but be careful if you use it on anything small.
It's a true secondary weapon and in no way ever to be used as your main one.
 

smilin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
371
81
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Do you know what a forest is? (If not pls google it) There are animals some of them are called wild pigs/hog they are actualy dangerous if you hit it and it doesn't die. You may not know hunters hunt those things. Beceause you asked if they fly I assume you think they only go for birds?

So lets review how you came to be a dick.

First I made a mildly humorous (imho) comment like so:
Originally Posted by smilin
Hunting shotgun? pfft. You would starve to death if you used it to hunt.
You seemed to miss the humor. Then you went to educate me on how a hunting shotgun is never used for hunting and used wild pigs as an example:

That's why hunters don't use it to hunt, they take it along to protect themselves: If the hunter hits a wild pig with his rifle and it wasn't a deadly shot... the chances are not bad that it will charge you and then that hunting shotgun saves your life.

Thinking that you might have missed an obvious use for hunting shotguns, shooting gamebirds, I made a jest about flying things that incorporated your earlier note on wild boars...
Wild pigs fly?
You again missed the humor I think, and reacted by further insulting my intelligence (with a deep seated assumption that someone you've never met knows nothing of hunting) through the following..

Do you know what a forest is? (If not pls google it) There are animals some of them are called wild pigs/hog they are actualy...

...and that's how it happened. I'm thinking the underlying root cause is you being pompous, overly assuming, and having perhaps an insecurity about your knowledge which you attempt to dispel with thorougly unneccessary demonstrations. But hey, I don't want to make some of the same mistakes by assumption so I'll accept the simpler explanation that you're a jerk if that's what it turns out to be.

Now how about you contribute something to the conversation? Got a tip for users of the KF hunting shotty?
 

WhiteTigerShiro

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 25, 2010
149
50
0
The Hunting Shotty is a master Support weapon. I love it when I'm in a game and see the support pull out his hunting shotty rather than an AA. Then you know you are playing with a "professional".
You can breath a sigh of relief that you aren't going to hear " I need money" ten thousand times every single trader time. you know you aren't getting "spray and pray" and a guy out of ammo 1/3 of the way through the round cause he is taking out single crawlers with his AA from range.
As a Support player who prefers the AA12, I take exception to this. Mind though, I don't fall into any of the categories you listed.

I don't money-beg since I don't care to get it until around Wave 5 or 6, and I don't spend much money until then so it's easy to save-up. And I don't run out of ammo... well... at all, because any Support worth his salt uses the regular Shotgun before anything else. AA12 is mostly only for Scrake/FP or when you have a room you wanna clear-out real quick.

Used properly, the AA12 is (in my opinion) far better than the Hunting Shotgun. Hunting Shotgun has it's uses, granted, but I personally prefer the stopping power behind the AA12. Well... that and I'm still farming-up the achievement. xP
 

Compass

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 30, 2010
383
101
0
The thing about the Hunting Shotgun, you can just keep it on the ground as backup. It's too heavy for most classes to cheap out and resell when you're not looking, and since its ammo is so expensive, it's not like you have to maintain it and restock it. Good for emergency stands against the Scrakes and FPs when you're low on ammo.
 

Selnath

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 5, 2010
30
4
0
Before I say anything on the subject, I will note that I will be referencing some simple math I've done on the more simplistic weapons. The values are from the Killing Floor Damage Table.

Spoiler!


Now on the subject matter, support specialist is my favorite perk, but when I play it I always use the shotgun and the hunting shotgun, and not the AA-12. On a conceptual level, the AA-12 is far closer to an assault rifle than a shotgun. That is of course a subjective opinion, dependent heavily on what one thinks of as a shotgun. Secondly, if you compare the two on the spreadsheet, the hunting shotgun actually has a *higher* total damage capacity than the AA-12. Compare that to say the AK-47 and the SCAR, where there is a doubled damage capacity. Not to say the AA-12 isn't a good weapon, it just doesn't have a significantly increased value compared to the other shotguns. I won't comment on gameplay because that brings up total target number and accuracy, which are not easily reflected in such a comparison.
 

smilin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
371
81
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Selnath, DPS would be a useful stat as well.

I'd like to know what the AA12 damage is for all shots that can be fired in a single reloading of a hunting shotgun.

How much damage can each do during the duration of an AA12 load?
 

Selnath

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 5, 2010
30
4
0
DPS unfortunately depends too much on outside variables. Aside from that, fundamentally you kill zeds with damage, not damage per second. Considering the game, you don't constantly fire anyway. You pick your targets (especially with shotguns, where shooting one target is almost always a waste of ammo), and you don't always wait until you're dry to reload (especially with the shotgun). The numbers you are talking about certainly exist, but they have far more dependence on circumstance than the *potential* damage that can be done with the weapons.

In general damage per second only matters on larger targets that pose a threat to your life. In these situations killing the target quickly is more important than killing it efficiently. Despite this, the tradeoff is particularly noticeable with shotguns because of penetration. Essentially, if you shoot a scrake to death with an M14 you deal the same amount of damage as you would have with the AA-12, but the difference is the M14 would not otherwise deal any more damage, but the AA-12 would due to penetration. I use this not to compare the weapons so much as to compare the playstyle differences associated with the perks.

Overall you can't look very far into the numbers, because they only represent baselines from which things evolve. The AA-12 has more DPS than the hunting shotgun, but not more damage (especially the way the AA-12 is typically used, i.e. on large targets). One may have more importance than the other in any given situation, but since modeling every situation is essentially impossible you have to compare the baseline values and use that to make inferences about the real thing. My inferences from the data are that the AA-12 is designed to be used in such a way that it doesn't capitalize on the perk bonuses as much as the other two shotguns, and that it is an inferior weapon (excluding DPS) to the other shotguns, especially given its position as a tier 3 weapon.
 
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smilin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
371
81
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Sure DPS can be a misused metric especially where you have a "one shot" type of weapon like the hunting gun.

It would still be useful though. For example: Do I care that I fire a single shot versus a 2 second rapidfire? Not really. I don't need instant if "nearly instant" is available. So one of my curiosity questions: Can I crank out 540 damage with the AA12 in the time it takes the hunting shotgun to reload (and then do another 512 damage)?

If I can then it essentially nullifies the burst damage of the hunting shotgun.

I'm a hunting shotgun guy myself but my reasons are subjective to my playstyle. I would be curious to know if objective reasons support my opinion. My guess is they do not (and I'm fine with that).
 

Selnath

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 5, 2010
30
4
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Sure DPS can be a misused metric especially where you have a "one shot" type of weapon like the hunting gun.

It would still be useful though. For example: Do I care that I fire a single shot versus a 2 second rapidfire? Not really. I don't need instant if "nearly instant" is available. So one of my curiosity questions: Can I crank out 540 damage with the AA12 in the time it takes the hunting shotgun to reload (and then do another 512 damage)?

If I can then it essentially nullifies the burst damage of the hunting shotgun.

I'm a hunting shotgun guy myself but my reasons are subjective to my playstyle. I would be curious to know if objective reasons support my opinion. My guess is they do not (and I'm fine with that).
Like I said, the AA-12 has higher DPS, there's no question to that. One of my points though was that DPS is only truly important when the time it takes to kill a specimen matters (which is in general not the case). If you look at the more reasonable case of you needing to kill some number of specimens in a wave (i.e. between ammo refills), you will recognize that the amount of damage you deal is vastly more important than the way in which you inflict it.

Aside from that, burst damage is actually favored over sustained DPS in instances where the burst meets the required damage value. For instance, an enraged fleshpound is right on you; You can deal one burst immediately taking him down, or spend an extra half second using the AA-12, which may or may not be enough time for the fleshpound to hit you. Put in a more time-oriented way, the AA-12 reaches zero DPS when it runs out of ammo (like any other weapon), but the hunting shotgun will take far longer to reach that point. And again, we're ignoring the complications of multiple targets, which in general favors more calculated shots to optimize pellet trajectories (i.e. semi-automatic fire, which is a variable fire rate).
 

CandleJack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 2, 2009
3,399
1,059
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*valid argument*

I'm a hunting shotgun guy myself but my reasons are subjective to my playstyle. I would be curious to know if objective reasons support my opinion. My guess is they do not (and I'm fine with that).

My opinion on the HS/AA12 debate is just that, my opinion.

So here it is:

I prefer the Shogtun over all others, so i take SG/HS until i can afford SG/AA12, because in semi-auto the AA12 acts almost the same as the Shogtun does, though weaker per shot.

The HS has a valid and unique playstyle, burst damage, and i value it for that. However in a game, i am likely to focus on the trash specs and leave the priority specs to a Sharpshooter, so the high burst damage of the HS is wasted in my opinion.

This is where the AA12 is better in my opinion. It is faster, has a higher mag capacity and can engage enemies at a further distance, and the main reason i like it in the first place; it acts like the Shotgun.
 

ShyMiningStar

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 5, 2010
61
16
0
@smilin
I didn't talk friendly to you but I didn't insult you, you cannot force someone to like people if it's not the case.
You don't know me personly and I don't know you personly and that's the way I like it.

I came back here to correct myself after I asked my dad because he knows that stuff and corrected my explanation.

I'm not pompous: "Hunting shotgun? pfft. You would starve to death if you used it to hunt" Where is the humor I can't see it.
You cannot blame someone for not seeing otehrs humour maybe most have it some simply don't.

I didn't posted anything about the main topic because everything I wanted to say was already there. I don't like to talk for nothing.
Most people like to talk alot. I don't, I'm somewhat of a taciturn so what?
 

C_Gibby

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 18, 2010
7,275
2,716
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This is where the AA12 is better in my opinion. It is faster, has a higher mag capacity and can engage enemies at a further distance, and the main reason i like it in the first place; it acts like the Shotgun.

AA12 is just so great. I imagine it does less damage than the Pumpy in one shot, but the semi-auto is just lovely! It's great for killing the babies, especially crawlers and the middle-mouse works as a great "panic button" used to erase a huge mob surrounding you. It's better than a Hunty in that respect.

The Hunty is also very good for killing medium-sized crowds of babies and it's also a good way of finishing charging heavies.

The Pumpy sits in the middle of Hunty and AA12, IMO. Just like how the AK sits inbetween the Bullpup and SCAR. :p
 

smilin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
371
81
0
@smilin
I didn't talk friendly to you but I didn't insult you, you cannot force someone to like people if it's not the case.
You don't know me personly and I don't know you personly and that's the way I like it.

I came back here to correct myself after I asked my dad because he knows that stuff and corrected my explanation.

I'm not pompous: "Hunting shotgun? pfft. You would starve to death if you used it to hunt" Where is the humor I can't see it.
You cannot blame someone for not seeing otehrs humour maybe most have it some simply don't.

I didn't posted anything about the main topic because everything I wanted to say was already there. I don't like to talk for nothing.
Most people like to talk alot. I don't, I'm somewhat of a taciturn so what?

Your previous post, "do you know what a forest is?..google it" came off pretty condescending. If that was not your intent then no worries, no foul. Email, IM, and other typed messages are subject to pretty viscious semantic noise so **** happens.
 

ShyMiningStar

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 5, 2010
61
16
0
My problem is I feel offended to fast. I'm not used to talk to people and someone who feels offended mostly flames "back"(from his point of view/paranoid) emotional people tend to flame.

"do you know what a forest is?..google it" I said that cuz I felt offended by your question "wild pigs fly?" as you see I'm not used to it maybe I just should stay away from forums...
 

smilin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
371
81
0
I wouldn't consider a spat as minor as this reason enough for staying out of forums. Besides most don't have the balls to actually apologize and will continue arguing just for the sake of not losing. My respect for you has climbed greatly and I'm also forced to admit I may have fired the first shot with the "pigs fly".

Anyway if we continue this virtual group-hug we're gonna make everyone else on the thread barf so I'll wrap it up quickly with a smiley..

:)

Take care.