The Mkb once more - Ramm, please check this
- Thread starter Sensemann
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A lot of what you said is true but the stuff regarding recoil is missing a few things. 1) It actually has the same recoil as the PPSH at least it appears so. There's slight differences (like the MKB has higher X axis recoil, so it shakes around) but it's round about the same. This is ignoring the two weapons rate of fire which the higher rate of fire tends to make the recoil seem harder because you feel a lot more of it due to the high ROF. Something the AVT and PPSH both have a lot of is rate of fire so their recoil feels much higher.
I could be reading the wrong bit of code but the recoil properties I saw in the weapon files look completely identical with the MKB and PPSH
This is my intention. I don't mind if the weapon stays in for relaxed realism and realism mode, but I don't really want to see it in classic mode, or a maximum of 1 Mkb being available for 1 hero on the axis team (in the worst case).
This. A thousand times this. RO 1 managed to balance maps and teams without artificially giving stat boosts or access to special weapons. It was a bit like the stone-paper-cissors concept that gave both parties involved a unique strength, so they played different from each other. With hero unlocks and enemy loadouts, the only difference of the 2 teams is the different color in uniform and the tanks.
Want a ppsh while playing German? Do the most honorable thing, take a K98, stab a soviet assault, take his ppsh, there you go.
Point is there is no conclusive proof either way about the MKB.42 and further, there are plenty of RO2 players who like the weapon and use it.
And this is exactly the point I hoped to reach. There is no conclusive proof that the weapon was used in Stalingrad. One side says yes, one side says no. "Innocent until proven guilty."
So how about coming to the conclusion that in RO-classic mode, the weapon is left out because it's already in the other modes and most, if not all, of the RO-classic supporters do not want to see the Mkb in. So, why not fullfilling that wish?
And one more thing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by {ato}sixkiller
over 11,800 mkb 42 (h) models were produced in late 1942-43. I find it funny that everyone seems to know if was or wasn't there except the german federal archives (das bundesarchiv), which i have an open case regarding field trials at stalingrad. They so far, don't have an answer if it was or was not fielded in stalingrad. It seems some know better than the german military archives, makes me laugh.
[URL="http://www.bundesarchiv.de/index.html.de"][url]http://www.bundesarchiv.de/index.html.de[/URL][/URL]
The Bundesarchiv is not the "german military archives". It's just the general archive. And if they have no document about the weapon being used in Stalingrad, you can be pretty sure that there is none.
It's like searching for your white shirt in the suitcase over and over again and saying: "Still haven't found it, still trying to".
If there is one thing Germany did right after the war, it's collecting documents, evidence and items from that era.
The PPSh has slightly more pitch recoil with slightly less yaw recoil, with much less yaw randomness, but yes, they're fairly even in that category. The difference is that the PPSh self-recovers 75% of its recoil between shots vs the MKb's 65% and it also kicks the view ~12% less.
that's what the ppsh was designed to do. I mean, you don't give a weapon a drum magazine with 72 rounds of 7.62 x 25mm tokarev and the capability to burn through it at 900 rounds-per-minute unless that's what you're going for. Put it into the hands of a poorly-trained conscript, and it becomes the ultimate trench broom. It arguably was one of the most decisive weapons of the battle of stalingrad--hence the "gangster tactics" decried by a german soldier in his diary. Chuikov himself acknowledged the weapon's effectiveness, telling russian soldiers to clear rooms by "knocking" with a grenade, then entering and firing long submachine gun bursts. It's lethality was even recognized on a strategic level in both wwii and the korean war, with russians outfitting entire companies and battalions with the weapons, german assault platoons equipped with smgs springing up in response, and american troops being re-organized with 30-round m1 carbines, 30-round tommy guns, and more bars in an attempt to compensate.:is2:
Face it, the ppsh was a beast. It's iconic. No german soldier armed with anything less than an mp40 (which has the full capability of killing a russian assault trooper if proper discretion is used) should even think of being able to take on a ppsh at close quarters in a straight-up duel.
Let the russians have their ppsh. That was their historical small-arms advantage, and i'll have it be known that i fully support the german hero assault trooper having access to the ppsh in response. The germans, in contrast, should get an mg34 with reasonable recoil that doesn't overheat so ridiculously fast.
what's more, i blame the fast iron sights and wounding system for the ppsh's effectiveness. Instead of carefully clearing a building room by room, people rely on sprinting everywhere indoors before bringing up their iron sights or hipfire stance and blazing away at the target, since they know they have a good chance of surviving a hit. This naturally gives the ppsh, with its high rate of fire, a huge advantage over the mp40. If more people played like they had half a brain, then any spray-and-pray weapon can be beaten with good, solid tactics.
The ppsh deserves to be in stalingrad. The same can't be said of the mkb. I can't wait for classic mode and severely reduced/removed mkb numbers.
Nikita for president
All very interesting, but useless, when my feeling is that I am getting killed by Mkbs 50% of the time when playing Russian and 30% of the time when playing German (!).
Well, yes, that's a common psychological reaction when you have a chip on your shoulder about something - you weight it more highly than there is any objective basis for.
Mekhazzio,
The percentages I brought up are guesstimates, true. But there is no doubt that the Mkb is the weapon I am getting killed with most often. Especially on maps like Apartments, Station and Barracks.
The percentages I brought up are guesstimates, true. But there is no doubt that the Mkb is the weapon I am getting killed with most often. Especially on maps like Apartments, Station and Barracks.
interesting. you might try what i do. i hear the weapon being fired, hunt the guy down and KILL them! works for me!
This sh*t should be banned from these forums. I could say the irreligious people use it to justify their position too. No need to take a shot at a religious belief (any of them --- you just chose to single out Christians) when we're talking about MBKs.
Yes, I am a Christian, and yes your statement offends the snot out of me...
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Great strategy, that I usually use as well. Meaningless however, if there is a 2nd Mkb-whore over and over again....
Great strategy, that I usually use as well. Meaningless however, if there is a 2nd Mkb-whore over and over again....
It's sorta disturbing that there's people who play RO2 that use nothing but the MKB. They do exist... I've seen at least 5 people who will always go german assault without fail and sometimes if they can't get it (they usually do) they'll just leave the server and find another one. I wish I was joking.
LOL why do you care?
People can and will play exactly how they please. Far worse are the self important know it alls who have decided the only way to play is their way. Anybody doing otherwise will looked down upon and derided
I know plenty of people who only play as bolt, smg or mg, but you are not complaining about them?
Pointless thread is pointless, again.
Ask Saddam how to prove something didn't happen or wasn't there...
Anywho. When the Germans were encircled in Stalingrad (whe the Mkb was supposedly sent to the front) the Germans couldn't even get the required ammo for "standard weapons" to the troops.
On their best day, the German Airfleet didn't even bring in 1/3 of the required supplies....
( Zeitzler, the chief-of-staff of the German army, calculated that 750 tonnes of supplies were needed by the army everyday.
The numbers given by Bauer were 105 tonnes of materials flown to Stalingrad a day between December 22nd and January 10th, and less than 100 tonnes after that, instead of the 500 tonnes Goering had promised.)
Let's waste some space on those cargoplanes and bombers for 50 Mkb's..?
I know the Germans failed in a lot of strategic departments, but they were certainly not THAT stupid...
Same goes for German armour. Just because they introduced some model in a certain year, doesn't mean the majority of the the units on the front would have those tanks in the same year. (PzIv(lang) for instance...)
P.S. "Gangster tactics" ---> normally troops fall back/retreat to their new lines. Instead Russian soldiers went behind enemy lines and attacked from the rear = Gangster tactics
Anywho. When the Germans were encircled in Stalingrad (whe the Mkb was supposedly sent to the front) the Germans couldn't even get the required ammo for "standard weapons" to the troops.
On their best day, the German Airfleet didn't even bring in 1/3 of the required supplies....
( Zeitzler, the chief-of-staff of the German army, calculated that 750 tonnes of supplies were needed by the army everyday.
The numbers given by Bauer were 105 tonnes of materials flown to Stalingrad a day between December 22nd and January 10th, and less than 100 tonnes after that, instead of the 500 tonnes Goering had promised.)
Let's waste some space on those cargoplanes and bombers for 50 Mkb's..?
I know the Germans failed in a lot of strategic departments, but they were certainly not THAT stupid...
Same goes for German armour. Just because they introduced some model in a certain year, doesn't mean the majority of the the units on the front would have those tanks in the same year. (PzIv(lang) for instance...)
P.S. "Gangster tactics" ---> normally troops fall back/retreat to their new lines. Instead Russian soldiers went behind enemy lines and attacked from the rear = Gangster tactics
maybe you are right in Mkb but Pz 4 F2 was on field at 1942, the Hungarian 2nd army recived 22 at '42 october to compensate the loses, why they would give hight tec weapons for us if they havent got enaught of them? and dont forgot the F1 can be easily upgraded to F2 and also dont forget there were the Stug 3 F series what were produced from March of '42
From wiki pedia
"By 1941, 462 Panzer IV Ausf. Fs had been assembled, and the up-gunned Ausf. F2 was entering production."
in 42 aprox 880 G variant were produced so if you say you dont want to put the F-2 in game because the numbers (200 in 42) than you must use the G variant what has got 80mm of front armour. I think they putted the F2 in game for balance reasons, i mean think abaut it even you have hard time to kill an F-2 in game imagine that fight whit a better protected and better armed tank.
Burden of proof lies with the person affirming a position. He said the argument was retarded, not your religion (despite using Christianty as an exmaple -- and how he implied it). There's no need to get so defensive. It was a legitimate example because the argument is familiar to many people when used in that context.
So, to bring this into the context of RO2: the burden of proof lies with those who say there were MKBs in Stalingrad (and believe they should be in the game) not with those who disagree. If MKB lovers can categorically prove the existence of MKBs, then there is no counter-argument necessary. "Prove it wasn't there" is a fallacious argument.
Wally
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I was talking about the argument. The burden of proof is on the side who first claims something unlikely/unproven is true.
But yes, let's not fire up a ****storm.
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