The M14 case

[horzineplumpudding]

Ok, we have seen many debates with M14. This is an attempt to summarize most points about this controversial weapon in one thread. 5 points are gathered in this poll, so 5 votes are allowed to say simply yes or no. If you don't have any particular idea on one point, don't vote it. If you don't care at all about the M14, just skip this thread.

Just to make sure that everyone is well informed about its theoretical power, this shows what can be done with it : YouTube - ‪KF Testmap SS‬‏Wether its power is practical or just theoretical is YOUR opinion. So please, don't come up with 23413693442 in-game fictive scenarios to explain it, otherwise this is never going to end (there are people saying they are so good they can kill fleshpounds with a 9mm if... and few others who will negate every claim you make no matter how you back it up). And don't come here just to say that the M14 is garbage just because you don't like it.

Now with the five points :

1) Increase the headshot damage multiplier from 2.25 to 2.30. Motive : A headshot is not enough to kill a siren or a husk on HoE 6 with players.

2) Buff the fleshpound resistance to the M14 a little until it would need 13/14/15 headshots to kill a fleshpound on HoE 6 with players. Motive : Soloing a fleshpound with a M14 can be done a bit too fast, which calls for a slight nerf.

3) Slightly buff the damage output for bodyshots and decrease the headshot multiplier to obtain the same damage output with headshots. Motive : The M14 is generally unpopular. If you look at the stats, this weapons has an enormous DPS if you hit headshots. I guess people may dislike it because it is too weak when you don't aim for the head. However, this change would be against the principle of the sharpshooter. I apologize in advance for this potential flamebait.

4) Change the iron sight or replace it with a reflex sight. Motive : The iron sight of the M14 is generally unpopular.

5) Raise the price tag from 2500 to 3000/3500/4000, or include a discount for the crossbow (and possibly increase its price). Motive : The sharpshooter spawns with a saleable crossbow and is able to re-buy a M14 after dying at every wave again, again and again no matter what. This might be a bit too permissive. In KF, a good weapon should be a reward that would encourage cautious behavior, not something you get at every wave without any kind of requirement.

EDIT : The poll failed. And just type 1) 2) 3) 4) 5) to respond to the proposed points for an easier reading of the thread since it won't be possible to have a quick statistical summary.

 

[C_Gibby]

1) Increase the damage multiplier from 2.25 to 2.30. Motive : A headshot is not enough to kill a siren or a husk on HoE 6 with players.

Which is fair enough. That is the hardest possible setting. Edit: What I'm saying is, this part shouldn't be changed. It's fine as is.

3) Slightly buff the damage output of bodyshots and decrease the headshot multiplier to obtain the same damage output with headshots. Motive : The M14 is generally unpopular. If you look at the stats, this weapons has an enormous DPS if you hit headshots. I guess people may dislike it because it is too weak when you don't aim for the head.

Not a bad idea, but I always thought that treatment should be reserved for the Handcannon, but then again, the M14 takes 2 or 3 shots to kill a crawler, and if the M14 is supposed to be his best weapon, then you know something is wrong. Could do with a change!

4) Change the iron sight or replace it with a reflex sight. Motive : The iron sight of the M14 is generally unpopular.

I think this is good for obvious reasons.

5) Raise the price tag from 2500 to 3000/3500/4000. Motive : The sharpshooter spawns with a saleable crossbow and is able to re-buy a M14 after dying at every wave again, again and again no matter what. This might be a bit too permissive. In KF, a good weapon should be a reward that would encourage cautious behavior, not something you get at every wave without any kind of requirement.

Yes, sounds ideal!

 

[horzineplumpudding]

The poll is coming. Is there a way I can make sure that only 5 votes are allowed ?

EDIT : Argh, double-posted this thread by accident. Help, nuke

EDIT (again) : Gosh, it says I can only add a poll within 3 minutes of posting the thread xycxcvfdgbcfbxdfbfgbndfg

 

[sph34r]

This is a good idea, but I don't think it's going to be a very effective poll because it's based on people's skill levels. For example, in order for the M14 to be OP the user needs to be beyond a certain thereshold in terms of skill. Until he is, the user usually sees the M14 as worthless.

 

[Sick Jargon]

1) Increase the headshot damage multiplier from 2.25 to 2.30. Motive : A headshot is not enough to kill a siren or a husk on HoE 6 with players.

I agree, I'd consider the Siren to be a trash zed tbh. The M14 is a powerful weapon so it should be able to take the head off its shoulders in one.

2) Buff the fleshpound resistance to the M14 a little until it would need 13/14/15 headshots to kill a fleshpound on HoE 6 with players. Motive : Soloing a fleshpound with a M14 can be done a bit too fast, which calls for a slight nerf.

I agree, the Sharpshooter shouldn't be capable of taking an FP alone, not on HoE at least. THis would be good for promoting teamplay even when the M14 is buffed.

3) Slightly buff the damage output for bodyshots and decrease the headshot multiplier to obtain the same damage output with headshots. Motive : The M14 is generally unpopular. If you look at the stats, this weapons has an enormous DPS if you hit headshots. I guess people may dislike it because it is too weak when you don't aim for the head.

I disagree, though this promotes the M14's use. The Sharpshooter is a precision class and should be treated as one.

4) Change the iron sight or replace it with a reflex sight. Motive : The iron sight of the M14 is generally unpopular.

I agree - The M14's sight is horrible and I'm glad this was in your poll. I think the iron sight is way too small, would be cool to see a reflex on it.

5) Raise the price tag from 2500 to 3000/3500/4000. Motive : The sharpshooter spawns with a saleable crossbow and is able to re-buy a M14 after dying at every wave again, again and again no matter what. This might be a bit too permissive. In KF, a good weapon should be a reward that would encourage cautious behavior, not something you get at every wave without any kind of requirement.

I agree - If the weapon is to be buffed to a point where people actually wish to use it then it should be earned. After all, it is a powerful weapon.

 

[horzineplumpudding]

From my perspective, I would say 1) Yes 2) Yes 3) Dunno 4) No 5) No, or 1) Yes 2) No 3) No 4) Dunno 5) Yes. Either 2 or 5, but not both, with a slight preference for 5.

 

[iburnstuff]

I've been proven wrong and now I'll have to suck it up. My deepest apology to sph34r. Damn it feels bad to be proven wrong.

 

[OCAdam]

1) Increase the headshot damage multiplier from 2.25 to 2.30. Motive : A headshot is not enough to kill a siren or a husk on HoE 6 with players.

Yeah. Bit dumb with the way it is right now... although I don't play HoE personally. But the logic behind it.... total sense there is being made.

2) Buff the fleshpound resistance to the M14 a little until it would need 13/14/15 headshots to kill a fleshpound on HoE 6 with players. Motive : Soloing a fleshpound with a M14 can be done a bit too fast, which calls for a slight nerf.

Only if a variant of option 4 is done as well. With current sights, I'll abstain.

3) Slightly buff the damage output for bodyshots and decrease the headshot multiplier to obtain the same damage output with headshots. Motive : The M14 is generally unpopular. If you look at the stats, this weapons has an enormous DPS if you hit headshots. I guess people may dislike it because it is too weak when you don't aim for the head. However, this change would be against the principle of the sharpshooter. I apologize in advance for this potential flamebait.

No. SS is precision based, and this goes against the precision idea.

4) Change the iron sight or replace it with a reflex sight. Motive : The iron sight of the M14 is generally unpopular.

Very yes. If I could use the extra vote from abstaining before, I'd put it here as well! Personally, I feel the weapon should rid itself of the laser sight and replace with a SUSAT or a low power scope.

5) Raise the price tag from 2500 to 3000/3500/4000. Motive : The sharpshooter spawns with a saleable crossbow and is able to re-buy a M14 after dying at every wave again, again and again no matter what. This might be a bit too permissive. In KF, a good weapon should be a reward that would encourage cautious behavior, not something you get at every wave without any kind of requirement.

Again, makes sense logically, so I'll give this a yes as well. But, it'd need something better than the current sights on the weapon to make it worth even making an investment at the CURRENT price.

-

Maybe we should hold a poll on what kind of sights to try for the EBR?

 

[sph34r]

My deepest apology to sph34r.

You don't need to apologize for anything. I'm not here to say to debate, just to discuss.

 

[brick_top1982]

!!?? My vid got hijacked!!! xDDDD

-Nips_FB

 

[HaTeMe]

3) Slightly buff the damage output for bodyshots and decrease the headshot multiplier to obtain the same damage output with headshots. Motive : The M14 is generally unpopular. If you look at the stats, this weapons has an enormous DPS if you hit headshots. I guess people may dislike it because it is too weak when you don't aim for the head. However, this change would be against the principle of the sharpshooter. I apologize in advance for this potential flamebait.

No... its good the way it is, so you cant just spam it at the general direction of the zeds and get some lucky one hit kills.

4) Change the iron sight or replace it with a reflex sight. Motive : The iron sight of the M14 is generally unpopular.

Yes, the iron sight is horrible. Now before all these wanna-be-pros come along saying "its good you just have to know how to use it" dont bother. Its HORRID, the worst ironsight in the game which is WRONG because its a sharpshooter weapon and you need a good iron/reflex sight or a scope to aim accurately. Even if you can aim with it, it blocks half your screen which means you cant see crawlers/stalkers or much anything BUT the target which leaves you very vurnerable.

 

[masteriamamind]

#4

Replace the iron sight. The M14 is inaccurate. The sights are off. For the weakened sharp shooter that is a death sentence.

 

[CandleJack]

#1 and #4.

No increase to bodyshot damage, we just got rid of it, i view an increase as a step backwards, not a step forwards.

 

[sph34r]

Keep the sights as is, imo. The laser is more than adequate for medium range and short range. For long range, it SHOULD be hard to use.

Although if the sights themselves are broken and don't correspond to where the bullet is going, then that should be fixed.

 

[Steeps]

Incoming 3AM rant!

I really don't think it's overpowered or underpowered, although when I go LAR over Xbow I almost always prefer to use the handcannon with it. Sure, the M14 can solo fleshpounds, but how often is that going to occur in-game? Unless you're by yourself there are people in the squad that can do this much easier than you (demolitions,e ven support), not to mention that getting 11 straight headshots under pressure while being attacked by other zeds is more difficult and unreliable than doing it by yourself in testmap.

There was a video here not too long ago where someone soloed scrakes and fleshpounds with every single perk. This does not mean that every perk is overpowered and needs a nerf. I think "overpowered" and "underpowered" should be determined by how they affect actual games. If every sharpshooter is easily wasting fleshpounds with the M14 similar to how they did with the xbow pre-patch then maybe we have a problem. But that's not what I see.

The problem I do have with the M14 is I think it is a poorly designed weapon that has an overall negative effect on gameplay. To me sharpshooter is a perk that involves careful aim, choosing your targets wisely, and the ability to take out targets from a distance. M14 really does none of this. You don't need careful aim thanks to the red dot. Secondly, it fills the role that dual handcannons had pre-update and really acts more like a weapon designed to save your *** rather than something to carefully pick off zed with (what I velieve a gun of its price should be about). Finally, the red dot is also unreliable at a range and the iron sights suck. Although it can be used at range, I have no idea why someone would bother with it when the LAR and Xbow are better options.

So it is a sharpshooter weapon that wants to be a commando weapon. However, its iron sights and bodyshot damage are too weak to transform the sharpie into some sort of sharpshooter-commando hybrid class. It really doesn't fit in with the perk and doesn't exactly serve a purpose, either. Handcannon(s) fires faster and works better as a last ditch support weapon, and the LAR and Xbow work better against scrakes (thanks to their ability to stun) and at picking off zeds from a distance due to the superior iron sights and scope respectively. The only true advantage to the M14 is the ability to solo fleshpounds easier than any other sharpie weapon, but as I said shaprie isn't exactly your go-to-guy when it comes to this role.

So I'm basically suggesting a redesign of the weapon from the ground up. Here's what I'm thinking of:

1. A trash/desperation gun. Not my preferred choice, but with the LAR and Xbow being effective at what they do this will at least give it a defined role. I'd give it a scope similar to the SCAR or Bullpup and drop the red dot and god-awful iron sights. Then I'd make it similar to the old M14, except give scrakes and fleshpounds some resistance to it. This is a gun for the trash, right?

2. A more traditional sharpshooter gun and my personal preference to the direction that should be taken with this. Similar to above, get rid of the red dot and iron sights and replace it with a scope. Keep it semi-auto but lower the rate of fire (maybe twice as fast as the LAR? Dunno). Keep body damage at around what it is now (or perhaps a bit lower), but increase the headshot multiplier (nothing extreme, but enough to be noticeable). Obviously some tweaking needs to be done regarding scrakes and fleshpounds, but I wouldn't worry about it killing fp's in 8 shots or so because that would take as long, if not longer than it would now due to the slow rate of fire. This would make it quicker-firing than the LAR, but deal less body damage (so you might not be able to pop crawlers easily how you can with the LAR) and not stun scrakes. So the choice would be between M14, Xbow, and LAR for your distance weapon. Xbow would stand superior for its penetration and scrake killing, M14 superior at quickly eliminating zeds from a distance, and the LAR as something in between the two.

None of this is tested anywhere, so feel free to disagree and think these ideas are terrible! For all I know they very well might be.

 

[FSUBoo]

Incoming 3AM rant!

I really don't think it's overpowered or underpowered, although when I go LAR over Xbow I almost always prefer to use the handcannon with it. Sure, the M14 can solo fleshpounds, but how often is that going to occur in-game? Unless you're by yourself there are people in the squad that can do this much easier than you (demolitions,e ven support), not to mention that getting 11 straight headshots under pressure while being attacked by other zeds is more difficult and unreliable than doing it by yourself in testmap.

There was a video here not too long ago where someone soloed scrakes and fleshpounds with every single perk. This does not mean that every perk is overpowered and needs a nerf. I think "overpowered" and "underpowered" should be determined by how they affect actual games. If every sharpshooter is easily wasting fleshpounds with the M14 similar to how they did with the xbow pre-patch then maybe we have a problem. But that's not what I see.

The problem I do have with the M14 is I think it is a poorly designed weapon that has an overall negative effect on gameplay. To me sharpshooter is a perk that involves careful aim, choosing your targets wisely, and the ability to take out targets from a distance. M14 really does none of this. You don't need careful aim thanks to the red dot. Secondly, it fills the role that dual handcannons had pre-update and really acts more like a weapon designed to save your *** rather than something to carefully pick off zed with (what I velieve a gun of its price should be about). Finally, the red dot is also unreliable at a range and the iron sights suck. Although it can be used at range, I have no idea why someone would bother with it when the LAR and Xbow are better options.

So it is a sharpshooter weapon that wants to be a commando weapon. However, its iron sights and bodyshot damage are too weak to transform the sharpie into some sort of sharpshooter-commando hybrid class. It really doesn't fit in with the perk and doesn't exactly serve a purpose, either. Handcannon(s) fires faster and works better as a last ditch support weapon, and the LAR and Xbow work better against scrakes (thanks to their ability to stun) and at picking off zeds from a distance due to the superior iron sights and scope respectively. The only true advantage to the M14 is the ability to solo fleshpounds easier than any other sharpie weapon, but as I said shaprie isn't exactly your go-to-guy when it comes to this role.

So I'm basically suggesting a redesign of the weapon from the ground up. Here's what I'm thinking of:

1. A trash/desperation gun. Not my preferred choice, but with the LAR and Xbow being effective at what they do this will at least give it a defined role. I'd give it a scope similar to the SCAR or Bullpup and drop the red dot and god-awful iron sights. Then I'd make it similar to the old M14, except give scrakes and fleshpounds some resistance to it. This is a gun for the trash, right?

2. A more traditional sharpshooter gun and my personal preference to the direction that should be taken with this. Similar to above, get rid of the red dot and iron sights and replace it with a scope. Keep it semi-auto but lower the rate of fire (maybe twice as fast as the LAR? Dunno). Keep body damage at around what it is now (or perhaps a bit lower), but increase the headshot multiplier (nothing extreme, but enough to be noticeable). Obviously some tweaking needs to be done regarding scrakes and fleshpounds, but I wouldn't worry about it killing fp's in 8 shots or so because that would take as long, if not longer than it would now due to the slow rate of fire. This would make it quicker-firing than the LAR, but deal less body damage (so you might not be able to pop crawlers easily how you can with the LAR) and not stun scrakes. So the choice would be between M14, Xbow, and LAR for your distance weapon. Xbow would stand superior for its penetration and scrake killing, M14 superior at quickly eliminating zeds from a distance, and the LAR as something in between the two.

None of this is tested anywhere, so feel free to disagree and think these ideas are terrible! For all I know they very well might be.

If you get a chance, check out the IJC weapon pack and their Fn Fal Acog. It's what the m14 should be. It's a single fire, scoped commando weapon but feels more natural to a sharpie weapon because it has a great scope.

 

[horzineplumpudding]

The problem I do have with the M14 is I think it is a poorly designed weapon that has an overall negative effect on gameplay.

[...]

So I'm basically suggesting a redesign of the weapon from the ground up.

[...]

None of this is tested anywhere, so feel free to disagree and think these ideas are terrible!

Sorry but this thread is mainly about possible balance issues and minor changes for the M14, not ditching it away from the game and replacing it altogether with another weapon. IMHO, the changes you proposed are pretty much equal to removing it if you look at it from the gameplay perspective. If you want a new weapon, then it's fine, this whole section is here for this.

 

[Aze]

1) Increase the headshot damage multiplier from 2.25 to 2.30. Motive : A headshot is not enough to kill a siren or a husk on HoE 6 with players.

Agreed on this. On 6-man HoE it feels less valuable to use because of this single weakness.

2) Buff the fleshpound resistance to the M14 a little until it would need 13/14/15 headshots to kill a fleshpound on HoE 6 with players. Motive : Soloing a fleshpound with a M14 can be done a bit too fast, which calls for a slight nerf.

Disagreed. The Sharpshooter (and Demo) are supposed to be the main Fleshpound and/or Scrake killers. View this post for my pov on the perks: [URL="http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=757374&postcount=143"][url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=757374&postcount=143[/URL][/URL] (Warning, it's a bit lengthy )

3) Slightly buff the damage output for bodyshots and decrease the headshot multiplier to obtain the same damage output with headshots. Motive : The M14 is generally unpopular. If you look at the stats, this weapons has an enormous DPS if you hit headshots. I guess people may dislike it because it is too weak when you don't aim for the head. However, this change would be against the principle of the sharpshooter. I apologize in advance for this potential flamebait.

Neither disagreed nor agreed. If raised from 80 to 100 or so (in basedamage) and hs-multiplier down to whatever number so it remains equal would be nice i guess. On the other hand, i like the weapon requiring some skill.

4) Change the iron sight or replace it with a reflex sight. Motive : The iron sight of the M14 is generally unpopular.

Agreed, with a twist: Swap lasersight and aimpoint sight of the SCAR and M14 perhaps? Would make the M14 more against longrange targets (Sniping Husks, Sirens and Fleshies in particular), and a bit less of a close range spammer.

5) Raise the price tag from 2500 to 3000/3500/4000. Motive : The sharpshooter spawns with a saleable crossbow and is able to re-buy a M14 after dying at every wave again, again and again no matter what. This might be a bit too permissive. In KF, a good weapon should be a reward that would encourage cautious behavior, not something you get at every wave without any kind of requirement.

Disagreed. Why? The problem is not the M14's pricetag, its the CROSSBOW which is implemented wrong. Raise the Xbow baseprice to 1250, but give it the discount as well, and all of a sudden the spawntrick will be worth more or less equally to all other perks and the M14 will thus also be harder to attain.

 

[horzineplumpudding]

ADisagreed. Why? The problem is not the M14's pricetag, its the CROSSBOW which is implemented wrong. Raise the Xbow baseprice to 1250, but give it the discount as well, and all of a sudden the spawntrick will be worth more or less equally to all other perks and the M14 will thus also be harder to attain.

Yup. I'll include it in the original post.

 

[poosh]

1) Yes

2) No. Two sharpies with xbow or M14 + xbow combo kills FP much easier than single M14, without worrying about some zeds come in front and block M14 shots. Giving FP a M14 resistance completely outshines this weapon comparing to xbow.

3) No. M14 should be used for doing headshots, not spamming bodyshots. It's better to give M14 a bullet penetration, so stalkers in front wouldn't such a big problem.

4) Yes, of course. IMO would be nice to move laser sights to SCAR, but scope - to M14.

5) Leave M14 price as it is. Xbow price should fixed by increasing it to 1250 and giving ss a discount on it.