The list from Red Orchestra player

[LordSteve]

Great Posts with some great Ideas.
I hope TWI will read it and take some changes in Ro2. Especially in:
1. Slow down game Speed and Movements (longer reload times, longer times to toogle iron sights etc.
2. More weapon sway for all weapons, especially for hipfired mgs!!
3. 100 percent Body Collision
4. Surpression system of Darkest Hour mod!
5. Native Languages
6. Decrease just a little bit the FOV zoom for normal infantry not for snipers, so the sniper class is more important
7. Option to manualy remove unlocks!
8. Remove tank AI gunners, add keyboard keys (asd) to control and move tank turrent.
9. New larger maps with new vehicles (halftracks for both sides) and light tanks to support infantry (Stug, t 70 or kv 1/2, Panzer III).
10. Classic Role Selection Menu with descriptions like in RoOst.

 

[Proud_God]

Nice list. But the problem with these long lists is, everybody's got a few items they don't agree on, and in the end there is no clear overview of wath is liked /disliked.

 

[Poerisija]

Hey OP, I found the perfect game for you

http://store.steampowered.com/app/1200


If you seriously want to bring back ammo pouches, weapon shot out of your hand, attachable bayonets, full body collision and the clumsy to use MG's back I really don't know why you play computer games. You should be doing origami with your toes. It's hard, useless and unnecessary - just like all what I listed above.

I DO agree with fixing wounding and gunplay but please TWI, keep your head and don't make it RO:OST2 because that's not a "realistic WW2 experience" what I and hopefully many others are looking for. There is no need for restricting the avatar to sub-human capability of movement and shooting - like it was in OST. Tweak it, don't remake it.

 

[gyps]

I agree ith the majority of the things on list to some extent or other

I'd like to see weapon drop when shoot in hand back as i thought that was a nice touch and added to the tension of running across open spaces as you could easly wind up weapon less on the other side

 

[Poerisija]

I agree ith the majority of the things on list to some extent or other

I'd like to see weapon drop when shoot in hand back as i thought that was a nice touch and added to the tension of running across open spaces as you could easly wind up weapon less on the other side

It was annoying and tedious. If weapon was shot out of your hand, either your hand or the weapon in question wuould be unable to continue the battle. Following the basic RO principle of combat ineffectiveness = dead, you'd die from "weapon shot out of your hand".

And jesus it was a pain to pick up all those clips while at it. It didn't even make sense to drop them as well.

 

[GRIZZLY]

+1 to the OP

EDIT:
-Make footseps a little louder ffs. Soldiers move like ninjas now.

Keep in mind a lot of these soldiers will be deafened by gun shots and artillery. Foot steps really aren't that loud anyway. People sneak up on me all the time lol

 

[Golf33]

Great post Apos!

I agree with everything except a few items, plus a couple where I'd like to add something or make a comment. If I haven't quoted a point below it's because I agree with it.

• slow down a player's reload speed so player needs to thing twice before he reloads and checking magazine weight will be more useful (let's say reload time takes 5 times more time then magazine check)

Low-level mag changes are about right for most weapons already. High-level mag changes are ridiculously fast at the moment.

• Mantling should take a bit more time and use stamina

Mantling speed is about right at the moment. It should use stamina if it doesn't already.

• bring back original LMG purpose:
  • remove "balanced" recoil and add realistic when deployed (more effective when deployed)
  • remove possibility to run'n'gun with LMGs,
  • add "combat stance" for LMGs from RO:O, that takes a bit of time to enter, so you can shoot only from stationary position

Yes, if you mean reduce the deployed recoil. The recoil you currently see with level 25+ LMGs is about right I think.

Add in:

• Fix maps so LMG can be deployed in all locations
• Add a key to hold bipod legs in place while turning past the limit of travel of the bipod, I.e. shuffle the legs and hips rather than pick up the barrel and shift the bipod.... Or,
• Add a key to reposition the gunner's body so it's in line with the current aim point.

• remove tank AI BOTs (even in Battlefield 3 it is worth to have a other player in a tank and it improves teamplay big time, when in RO2 coop tanking completely disappeared)

Keep the AI driver. Just don't allow the AI to shoot. Or at least hobble the AI's unerring accuracy and thermal imaging capability.

• remove spotting system and "soldier spotted" markers

No, keep this in. It's a good abstraction for more detailed verbal spotting calls which aren't possible in a computer game.

• remove English, but add native voices

Menu option. Don't force me to learn Russian just so I can follow what my team are saying.

• remove random soldier's chatter so only player can decide when he wants to shout or say something (that will also fix problem when soldier says "did I get him?" when player cannot see enemy but shoot in his direction)

I like the chatter. On 'critical only' setting it's pretty cool. Fix the exploit by having the soldier randomly call out whenever he fires, not just when there's an enemy nearby. This way players won't be sure if there's someone there or not.

Overall, great post, cool suggestions, thanks!

 

[Golf33]

Nice list. But the problem with these long lists is, everybody's got a few items they don't agree on, and in the end there is no clear overview of wath is liked /disliked.

Someone could easily go through the thread, and work that out from the replies.

Sounds like a job for Yoshiro!

 

[Rehmes]

Nope to all cause I didn't pay to play it like that.

 

[Poerisija]

Great Posts with some great Ideas.
I hope TWI will read it and take some changes in Ro2. Especially in:
1. Slow down game Speed and Movements (longer reload times, longer times to toogle iron sights etc.
2. More weapon sway for all weapons, especially for hipfired mgs!!
3. 100 percent Body Collision
4. Surpression system of Darkest Hour mod!
5. Native Languages
6. Decrease just a little bit the FOV zoom for normal infantry not for snipers, so the sniper class is more important
7. Option to manualy remove unlocks!
8. Remove tank AI gunners, add keyboard keys (asd) to control and move tank turrent.
9. New larger maps with new vehicles (halftracks for both sides) and light tanks to support infantry (Stug, t 70 or kv 1/2, Panzer III).
10. Classic Role Selection Menu with descriptions like in RoOst.

NO to all except 7 and 9.

 

[Alperce]

I agree with some of OP's points, and with some others I must disagree, however I give this +1 for how contructive this thread is.

However, I have a question, what's the thing with sway? If you handle a gun in reality, it's pretty much the EXACT same level of sway as the one you find in RO2, why the need to change something that is so, so well represented?

 

[YOYOMAMA]

+1 to OP from an RO vet.

when i first read the OP, i felt an an urgent need to create this account to voice my approval.
as it stands now, RO2 adds nothing but new graphics to the RO community, something appreciated lesser in regards to competitive multiplayer gaming (anyone else playing low graph settings in multiplayer) ?.
compared to vanilla RO, i don't see any bigger improvements compared to the content the mod community (DH, you guys rly made 5 guys gaming life a better experience for over 2 years now)provided to the playerbase , maybe with the exception of the great cover/blindshot system.
the longer lasting playerbase was almost entirely aimed at giving realism the preference over fast paced action.
Vanilla RO needed lots of community love to make it that long lasting and i guess it takes another effort from that very same community to make RO2 the brilliant game it deserves to be. :sadface: to the devs.

where is the love ?

 

[Golf33]

I agree with some of OP's points, and with some others I must disagree, however I give this +1 for how contructive this thread is.

However, I have a question, what's the thing with sway? If you handle a gun in reality, it's pretty much the EXACT same level of sway as the one you find in RO2, why the need to change something that is so, so well represented?

Accurately shooting the weapons in RO2 is far easier than it is in real life. I'm a pretty decent shot under range conditions, and in RO2 I'm an expert marksman even under combat conditions, regardless of whether I've just been sprinting, turned to engage a target way off my axis, or whatever.

 

[I. Kant]

However, I have a question, what's the thing with sway? If you handle a gun in reality, it's pretty much the EXACT same level of sway as the one you find in RO2, why the need to change something that is so, so well represented?

I had a realisation just last night, like a diamond bullet right in my forehead, that (and this may have been brought up; I'm quite sure it has) what we're looking for is not the sway itself, but weapon momentum.

Yes, weapon momentum is what we are looking for. Right now, the weapon moves only as far as your mouse does, so the on-screen result is tied directly to the mouse input. What we should rather have is (and I'll say it again) weapon momentum- your weapon should continue moving for a bit even after mouse input stops, so that it is a matter of extreme skill to take those instant snap shots.

Heavier weapons should have more momentum - I'm looking at you, LMGs!

The end result is that acquiring a new target is far less predictable and takes a lot more getting used to, especially between different weapon categories. Couple that with a slightly increased sway that is strongly connected to your current stamina level, and we just may have a solution (for the "improved" realism mode alone, let me emphasise this again, to avoid confusion of "people who didn't pay for this kind of gameplay" being non-constructively critical).

For an example of this, see ARMA2 with the ADS free-aim zone enabled (I don't believe this feature is active with ADS free-aim off; and since in RO2 we do have ADS free-aim, it can be done). I can't seem to currently find a video showing this, nor can I record one, so if anyone could help me out in this regard, I would be much obliged (as the post currently is not as elucidating as I would like it to be).

 

[Nikita]

I agree with some of OP's points, and with some others I must disagree, however I give this +1 for how contructive this thread is.

However, I have a question, what's the thing with sway? If you handle a gun in reality, it's pretty much the EXACT same level of sway as the one you find in RO2, why the need to change something that is so, so well represented?

Sure, when you're holding a rifle on a target in real life, it doesn't sway that much--the difficult thing is aligning the iron sights, not compensating for sway. That said, holding your breath does not magically reduce sway in real life to the extent that it does in RO2, and the normal sway is still just slightly too light.

Besides, since the game cannot easily simulate the difficulty of properly obtaining a good sight picture, it gives you a near perfect sight alignment. Therefore, because you are more accurate than you would be in real life, the game SHOULD compensate by increasing sway.

Right now, competitive RO2 clans have trained their aiming skills to a truly rediculous level. Sprint, stop, aim, score a headshot at 150 m with barely any hesitation. Any real-world military unit with that kind of lethality would be able to give Seal Team Six, the SAS, the Spetsnaz GRU, or what have you a run for their money. Hitting at long range is just too easy as-is. I've shot a Mosin-Nagant at 100 yards--it's not difficult to hit a target at that range by any means, but you DO have to concentrate. In RO2, it's almost a thoughtless process.

 

[Cwivey]

For an example of this, see ARMA2 with the ADS free-aim zone enabled (I don't believe this feature is active with ADS free-aim off; and since in RO2 we do have ADS free-aim, it can be done). I can't seem to currently find a video showing this, nor can I record one, so if anyone could help me out in this regard, I would be much obliged (as the post currently is not as elucidating as I would like it to be).

Indeed, MG's and the larger sniper-rifles do take much more effort to get onto target; and looking up / down fast (even with the free aim off) you can see the momentum of the weapon even more (Weapon meets your screen 1 second after you started looking up /down).

 

[RAF_Pstyle]

Weapon sway and recoil need some work.

I've never fired a WW2 SMG in real-life but I don't think I could empty a whole mag firing from the hip without it ending up pointing somewhere skyward.

This is my almost unimplementable suggestion:
At the risk of getting all RPG on it: Maybe some kind of trade-off between strength and agility for users to make up for the much-hated leveling system?
Strength means you can handle weapons (particularly MGs/ SMGs) with less sway/recoil, and perhaps carry more ammo? Agility makes players run faster, turn faster.

When you first start out at lvl 1, you have 50% allocation to each. Each time you level up you can move the slider a single % point one way or the other. But your overall total never changes (no uber-solldiers). Leveling just helps you craft the balance of your player between the two attributes. That way, if you go too far in one direction, you can correct it back a bit as you continue to level.

 

[Zetsumei]

Yes, weapon momentum is what we are looking for. Right now, the weapon moves only as far as your mouse does, so the on-screen result is tied directly to the mouse input. What we should rather have is (and I'll say it again) weapon momentum- your weapon should continue moving for a bit even after mouse input stops, so that it is a matter of extreme skill to take those instant snap shots.

You have a life time handling different weights and moving around with it. We all have had that experience when lifting up a bag that we thought was very heavy and ended up very light so we shoot in the air, we are very fast in being able to adapt to different weights based on how something looks, and very quick to adapt if our estimation was wrong.

Its simple that in our life we become accustomed and very well trained to handling different weights. It doesn't matter if I'm holding something light or heavy I can point it exactly where I want with ease and no overshoot. Getting humans to control a 2nd order system with a mouse, will lead to a lot of overshoot, as on a computer you can only rely on your eyes and your eyes are slow.

Normall you feel how heavy something is, coupled with proprioceptive feedback and an internal model of your body, and with all that info you can nearly in an instant position something.

As long as you can not actually obtain any form of haptic feedback through your mouse, in a realistic sense. You should not add weight to a gun in game, or basically create a 2nd order control in the mouse input. Mouse acceleration in control is not good. Limit the max turning speed ok, but don't force people to learn to control a 2nd order system as its generally very difficult and will require someone to simply control everything using the eyes as feedback (and eyes work with a 200ms delay).

If you want to make a task more difficult than it is currently, its always better to add a disturbance on top of the output. But humans in general are very bad in adapting to disturbances or variations in the input and output relation.

 

[I. Kant]

Still, there is some overshoot when quickly repositoning things. Yes, almost instantly you re-adjust and re-center the thing on what you wanted to point at, but it's there (I just tried with a few different objects).

Thus, part of the skill at the game would be based on learning how big and rapid of a movement to make with the mouse to aim at the new spot. And then make the momentum small, but noticeable, so it won't affect direct CQB shots that much, but may be a factor in acquiring a small target some distance away.
Then, even when you overshoot, you quickly re-adjust.

Pardon me, if I am being obtuse, but I am not entirely certain how a disturbance on top the output (I gather you refer to sway) is different from, what I would call, a disturbance on top of output (momentum). The end result is that you modify your input to account for the output, anyway. It's just that you do it in a slightly different way.

And don't get me wrong, I am by no means against sway, even if I think the one in RO was exaggerated (based on what some people who shoot guns say, as I don't have the experience myself). I am all for increasing current sway when fatigued, or supressed, yes.
It's just that I would also like a small degree of momentum added (which should be dependent on how rapid a movement you make, thus small adjustments would hardly trigger it).

 

[Zetsumei]

In a mass based system you have delays and essentially have a modification of all input data. So in case you overshoot somewhere you need to correct it with a system that overshoots again.

In case of a disturbance on top of the output, you can use the a constant control input to minimize it.

Basically a disturbance on top you can generally see and correct in an instant movement, and a disturbance within the system you can only feel. And normally that feeling is strengthened by your proprioceptive and tactile feedback, but in a game you don't have that information.

The heavy machine guns in ROHOS have weight added to them, and it just feels horrible to use it, and unintuitive to me. If all the gun play would end up feeling similar to that I wouldn't touch hos with a 10 feet stick. For me to become immersed it's important that I can get a control my character in a seemingly natural way to the point that I'm not even aware I'm controlling a character but just move intuitively.

By changing the input-output relation of your mouse will make things very simply as moving your arms in real life appear very difficult in game. Your eyes give your brain data with a delay of 200ms, while your tacticile and proprioceptive feedback only got a delay of 40ms. An added delay of 160ms in controlling my character will just make the game completely not enjoyable to me.

Weight is realistic, however you miss a lot of the information your real body has, which would make adding weight just clunky and awkward.

If you are interested in human control, you could start by looking up some of the basics stuff by looking up the work of a guy called Mc Ruer, in perticular his crossover model.