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Uk1t4k3

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2009
454
88
0
Singapore
I fail to understand how 9mm is "spammy" and is an ideal weapon for commando. Just because you thought that 9mm is an effective sweeper weapon doesn't mean it has to be a commando weapon.
 

Aze

Grizzled Veteran
Mar 19, 2010
1,424
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so you want to effectively cripple* the SS by removing its very key 9mm and HC? well done, makes perfect sense, ruin the class just so you can have another commando weapon
Geez, dude, calm down!
You think im doing this just to "give the Commando another weapon"? Way to misunderstand the intentions of my ideas!

, you see, the 9mm (single) is not meant to be a spammy weapon, and when used by a decent SS it isnt, so to suggest that it is and therefore should go to commando is bull, same goes for the HC, which is by no means a spammy weapon, it has little capacity, and not much ammo,
I know this. The single 9mm and single HC are nice Sharpshooter weapons. I never really meant to say that SINGLE 9mm and HC are the spammiest weapons in the world (although, they ARE spammier than any other Sharpie weapon, even the M14), but duals certainly are.

dualies for commando makes perfect sense, but if it means you need take the singles away from SS, then **** off.
What a polite way to make your point -.-

Let me try to get this across here as nicely as i can:
Everybody seem to agreed that Dual 9mm and Dual HCs are spammy weapons and that those fit very well with the Commando. On the other hand, the Single 9mm and Single HC are quite nice Sharpie weapons though. But would splitting them up really be a good idea, or make any sense for that matter? You are bashing me cuz im stealing both the single and dual over to Commando, but have you ever thought for 2 seconds WHY i did such a thing? Maybe cuz of pure logic?
Let's say that the Dual HC and Dual 9mm are for the Commando and that the Single HC and Single 9mm are still Sharpshooter weapons.
Are you then implying that it makes sense that:
* If you are carrying a single 9mm as Sharpie and stumble across a 2nd one, all of a sudden you deal crappier damage and can't level your Sharpie perk with the dual 9mm, just cuz you carry 2?
* If you have Dual HC as a Commando and then throw one on the ground and kill stuff, you can suddenly only level the Sharpshooter, and not anything at all with the Commando?
* If you go to the shop, Single HC would cost 500 for a level 6 Commando, while Dual HC would cost 299... does that make ANY sense to you?

Please, someone tell me that im not the only one seeing those horrible flaws if the duals and singles were to split up between the perks. If you move the duals, you HAVE TO move the singles too, it's just common sense! (Although, common sense isn't actually "common" these days, so i wouldn't be surprised if people don't understand my point -.-)

The logical thing to do is to give the problematic weapons (Dual HC and Dual 9mm) to the perk it fits with, the Commando, and then as a consequence also give the SINGLE versions over to that perk too, so it removes all the logical flaws that might occur otherwise.

*(i say cripple because while it can do without, if you take xbow, you really need the HC and if you don't have any other weapons you need the 9mm, thanks to no non weapon perk bonuses apart from general HS, but the pistol would still be nowhere near as good as it needs to be for the SS style)
Did you even read my previous posts? I suggested to reduce the Xbow to 8 weight as compensation, so you can carry the Xbow and LAR at the same time. That would make the Sharpshooter flexible and more into his role, while still being able to carry 2 of his perked weapons (be it Xbow+LAR or M14+LAR). He would then have a backup weapon, which would be decent for smallfry.
Or are you implying that's not enough? You have to consider that the Sharpshooter's very design is: Good against medium/heavy targets, not so good against trash (and the 9mm and HC are awesome for trash). So these ideas goes very well together with that idea in mind.

Also, let's just say that we have moved over the pistols to the Commando. That would mean that the Sharpshooter is more open for other weapons in its arsenal like:
The Hunting Rifle - http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=49966http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=49966
The Colt Python - http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=52393http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=52393 (now that's a pistol that would make SENSE for the Sharpie, as it is more powerful & slow, is not dualwieldable etc etc)
and so on...

Now, can you please be a bit more constructive and polite, next time you want to argue?
 
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Zoridium JackL

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 20, 2011
263
118
0
Australia
Geez, dude, calm down!
You think im doing this just to "give the Commando another weapon"? Way to misunderstand the intentions of my ideas!

I know this. The single 9mm and single HC are nice Sharpshooter weapons. I never really meant to say that SINGLE 9mm and HC are the spammiest weapons in the world (although, they ARE spammier than any other Sharpie weapon, even the M14), but duals certainly are.

What a polite way to make your point -.-

Let me try to get this across here as nicely as i can:
Everybody seem to agreed that Dual 9mm and Dual HCs are spammy weapons and that those fit very well with the Commando. On the other hand, the Single 9mm and Single HC are quite nice Sharpie weapons though. But would splitting them up really be a good idea, or make any sense for that matter? You are bashing me cuz im stealing both the single and dual over to Commando, but have you ever thought for 2 seconds WHY i did such a thing? Maybe cuz of pure logic?
Let's say that the Dual HC and Dual 9mm are for the Commando and that the Single HC and Single 9mm are still Sharpshooter weapons.
Are you then implying that it makes sense that:
* If you are carrying a single 9mm as Sharpie and stumble across a 2nd one, all of a sudden you deal crappier damage and can't level your Sharpie perk with the dual 9mm, just cuz you carry 2?
* If you have Dual HC as a Commando and then throw one on the ground and kill stuff, you can suddenly only level the Sharpshooter, and not anything at all with the Commando?
* If you go to the shop, Single HC would cost 500 for a level 6 Commando, while Dual HC would cost 299... does that make ANY sense to you?

Please, someone tell me that im not the only one seeing those horrible flaws if the duals and singles were to split up between the perks. If you move the duals, you HAVE TO move the singles too, it's just common sense! (Although, common sense isn't actually "common" these days, so i wouldn't be surprised if people don't understand my point -.-)

The logical thing to do is to give the problematic weapons (Dual HC and Dual 9mm) to the perk it fits with, the Commando, and then as a consequence also give the SINGLE versions over to that perk too, so it removes all the logical flaws that might occur otherwise.

Did you even read my previous posts? I suggested to reduce the Xbow to 8 weight as compensation, so you can carry the Xbow and LAR at the same time. That would make the Sharpshooter flexible and more into his role, while still being able to carry 2 of his perked weapons (be it Xbow+LAR or M14+LAR). He would then have a backup weapon, which would be decent for smallfry.
Or are you implying that's not enough? You have to consider that the Sharpshooter's very design is: Good against medium/heavy targets, not so good against trash (and the 9mm and HC are awesome for trash). So these ideas goes very well together with that idea in mind.

Also, let's just say that we have moved over the pistols to the Commando. That would mean that the Sharpshooter is more open for other weapons in its arsenal like:
The Hunting Rifle - [url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=49966[/URL]
The Colt Python - [url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=52393[/URL] (now that's a pistol that would make SENSE for the Sharpie, as it is more powerful & slow, is not dualwieldable etc etc)
and so on...

Now, can you please be a bit more constructive and polite, next time you want to argue?

alright, i'm going to make this quick and to the point.

1] reducing the weight of the xbow would make it EXTREMELY OP on anything hard and lower, there would be little to no reason to tke the m14/lar combo unless on hard or higher, remember you need to keep balance on every difficulty.

2] the SS having pistols is in no way preventing it from getting the Colt or Hunting rifle, that would probably be for completely different reasons, like the Colt not being up to the games standards (no offense) and the Hunting rifle being in Beta.

3] the commando would benefit a world more form the dualies than the SS could ever hope to, but if the only way to give the commando the dualies is to take the singles away from Sharpie
 
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timur

FNG / Fresh Meat
Well, looking at the roles of specific weapons, and not joining this heated discussion entirely, I'd vote to focus more on dualies for commando. The 9mm and HC are really good in either perk, as they are effectively useless unless you can headshots and work as good sidearms. But single pistols aren't all that much of a problem at the moment.

The big thing is dualies. They just dont work with the SS, and thats obvious. Unlike singles, they are spammy, and that is their purpose. We should capitalize on this purpose instead of stifling it with a perk that promotes accuracy instead of spamminess. Not to say that they are totally useless at the moment, but that applies to specific dual HC strategems, instead of general use (and the 9mm dualies are pretty useless). Dual pistols need a role where they can actually emphasize on their strengths and create a viable weapon role.

So, that being said, I say that the Beta is the clearest way to experiment! Now, the commando seems the most obvious in this scenario, but if that doesn't work, there are other perks to try!
 
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Aze

Grizzled Veteran
Mar 19, 2010
1,424
523
113
I'm sorry if this is too much to read, but here is my rethought opinion of all things:

Spoiler!


Keep up the awesome work! :)

EDIT: Why the random downvotes? Comment on what you like/dislike of my ideas, please?
 
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Skalli

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 2, 2010
223
54
0
Germany
Hi,
I played the Firebug most. Like your Firebug changes. But I have to critizise one point: The Flamethrower damage is to high. Even on 6 men HoE. The time, where the damage is dealt is fine now, but I think flamethrower damage is still to high.

I'll join "your beta". Love testing and giving feedback. Did it a few times before in some FPS.
 

DDC1234

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 20, 2011
239
39
0
Middle of Nowhere
Actually compared to the normal flamethrower formula - Too slow damage sirens hurt a team. The sirens die mostly before they can hurt the team like a flamer wants. Not just p***** it off. Definitely an improvement. I love it it is better now.
Aze know idea why they voted you down. There only a few things i can't disagree with expect the support don't like that one. Command and pistols(jury still in seesions).
 
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scary ghost

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 13, 2010
900
338
0
California
@Aze

The bullpup was almost 1 shot decapitating trash specimens anyways. Your original idea of upping the hs multiplier to 1.25x would have the same effect as upping the damage boost to 60%.

The new fleshpound rage is to punish the people who don't kite it properly. If you land every head shot, then you'll have no trouble taking him down. However, if you miss, then you will rage him.
 

Aze

Grizzled Veteran
Mar 19, 2010
1,424
523
113
@Aze

The bullpup was almost 1 shot decapitating trash specimens anyways. Your original idea of upping the hs multiplier to 1.25x would have the same effect as upping the damage boost to 60%.
Yeah i realize that now.
What's your personal opinion about it though: Is the Bullpup being able to headshot decap/kill trash specimen with one bullet too strong?

The new fleshpound rage is to punish the people who don't kite it properly. If you land every head shot, then you'll have no trouble taking him down. However, if you miss, then you will rage him.
Alright, i get it :)
But, is it really possible to do it anyway? I mean, you have to wait 2 seconds between each head shot, and it rages after 10-15 seconds, no? (Plus now you have made it so miss-swings / line of sighting just pauses it) And how many axe altfire attacks to the head does it take to decap the FP on 6-man HoE?
 

poosh

Grizzled Veteran
Jan 6, 2011
3,403
327
83
I agree with Aze's idea to lower dual-9mm weight to 2 or 3, and raise dual-HC weight to 6-7. Also don't see the problem of moving dual pistols to commando perk while leaving singles for sharpshooter. Let's analyse all operations with pistols, that is: picking up, dropping, buying, selling, and of course - shooting.

Picking up and Dropping
When playing as sharpie and picking up second pistol, I always drop it back (or sell, if the wave ends) due to lack of precision. So basically it doesn't matter for ss, are dualies commando weapon or not - ss mostly don't use them. It's just like picking a bullpup - ss can use it, but not so effectively - so it's better to give it to commando or just sell. When commando picks up second 9mm, he acquires a new weapon for his perk - same if it picks up a bullpup, for example.
If dual-HC weight will be increased to 6 or 7, it will protect ss from accident picking up 2-nd HC (when carrying xbow+HC). If commando founds his first HC, he will have 2 choices: ask ss for 2-nd HC, or opposite - save it for extra ammo for ss.

Buying and Selling
None of perks have discount on 9mm, so no problem with it. To make it easier, HC discount should be applied both for ss and commando (both single and dual), but changed position in the trader list: single HC stays with ss weapons, while Dual-HC (same as Dual-9mm) moved next to commando weapons.

I agree with Aze, that this scheme looks weird, but I don't see the problem in the gameplay, because single and dual pistols counts as different weapons, you can't switch from single to dual mode - just produce one from another (by picking/dropping).

I don't know if it would be possible to proper count perk progression while using single/dual pistols, but since this mutator isn't whitelisted - it doen't matter ;)
 
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Aze

Grizzled Veteran
Mar 19, 2010
1,424
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I agree with Aze's idea to lower dual-9mm weight to 2 or 3, and raise dual-HC weight to 6-7. Also don't see the problem of moving dual pistols to commando perk while leaving singles for sharpshooter. Let's analyse all operations with pistols, that is: picking up, dropping, buying, selling, and of course - shooting.

Picking up and Dropping
When playing as sharpie and picking up second pistol, I always drop it back (or sell, if the wave ends) due to lack of precision. So basically it doesn't matter for ss, are dualies commando weapon or not - ss mostly don't use them. It's just like picking a bullpup - ss can use it, but not so effectively - so it's better to give it to commando or just sell. When commando picks up second 9mm, he acquires a new weapon for his perk - same if it picks up a bullpup, for example.
If dual-HC weight will be increased to 6 or 7, it will protect ss from accident picking up 2-nd HC (when carrying xbow+HC). If commando founds his first HC, he will have 2 choices: ask ss for 2-nd HC, or opposite - save it for extra ammo for ss.

Buying and Selling
None of perks have discount on 9mm, so no problem with it. To make it easier, HC discount should be applied both for ss and commando (both single and dual), but changed position in the trader list: single HC stays with ss weapons, while Dual-HC (same as Dual-9mm) moved next to commando weapons.

I agree with Aze, that this scheme looks weird, but I don't see the problem in the gameplay, because single and dual pistols counts as different weapons, you can't switch from single to dual mode - just produce one from another (by picking/dropping).

I don't know if it would be possible to proper count perk progression while using single/dual pistols, but since this mutator isn't whitelisted - it doen't matter ;)

Well, think of one more thing:
While a Stalkerkill with dual HCs would level the Commando, would a single HC do that, while it is still also a Sharpie weapon? If so, get a headshot on a Stalker with a single HC... and you just progressed with TWO perks? Do we want that?
There are just too many illogical flaws and outright stupid things to happen if you split dualies and singles between perks.

So i still stand by my point: Either you leave both single and dual pistols as Sharpie weapons, or you move BOTH single and dual pistols to Commando. Those are really the only logical and consistant choices.

And the reason why i wanna move them to Commando is:
For Sharpie, single pistols work just fine. Dual pistols suck for the perk though. But for the Commando, single pistols work just fine as well BUT dual pistols do too. And, since i stand by my above statement that you either move both single and dual or nothing due to simple logic, i thus also believe moving both single and dual pistols completely over to Commando would be the best thing to do.

Sure, you can leave the pistols on the Sharpie too. But then we still have the problem of useless dual pistols...
 

poosh

Grizzled Veteran
Jan 6, 2011
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Well, think of one more thing:
While a Stalkerkill with dual HCs would level the Commando, would a single HC do that, while it is still also a Sharpie weapon? If so, get a headshot on a Stalker with a single HC... and you just progressed with TWO perks? Do we want that?

If dualies will be moved to Commando, then killing Stalker with them will increase Commando perk. It doesn't matter she killed with headshot or not, dual-HC is Commando weapon, so couldn't level sharpshooter with it anymore. Killing stalker with single pistol headshot will level Sharpshooter (as it is now), without leveling Commando.

I think your confusion is because you think dual pistols is just the same weapon as singles, just in increased quantity. In real life it is, but in the game it's different. Imagine dual pistols as completely different weapon. For example, try to replace words "dual-HC" with other commando weapon, like "Bullpup".
Code:
Can you  level up Commando perk with Bullpup? Yes.
Can you level up Sharpshooter perk by doing headshots with Bullpup? No.
Can you level up Commando by killing Stalkers with single HC? No.
Can you level up Sharpshooter by killing Stalkers with headshots from single HC? Yes.
Now just replace word "Bullpup" with "Dual-HC" or "Dual-9mm" in lines above and you'll get the answers.
 
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Aze

Grizzled Veteran
Mar 19, 2010
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@poosh: It is almost correct what you are saying with these comparison except one thing:

Picking up a Bullpup when you have a Handcannon doesn't make your Handcannon disappear, nor does it morph the Handcannon in your hand into a different perk's weapon or anything weird like that. And throwing the Bullpup on the ground doesn't make half of the Handcannons ammo disappear. The Bullpup isn't in any way an upgrade/sidegrade for the Handcannon, it's simply a completely different weapon.

So while the 9mm vs Dual 9mm and the HC vs Dual HC are "different" weapons, they still are what they are, both in single and dual mode (1 Handcannon or 2 Handcannons, they are still HANDCANNONS!), and single vs dual still grab ammo from the exact same ammopool, so the comparison is a tad flawed (even though, i do understand what you are trying to say).

So while i do understand you from a gameplay point of view, and even though we are balancing a game, i still don't think we should toss the logic out the window regarding all this, as breaking immersion on this level would just feel so stupid. At least imo.

And another thing: Why would the Commando get a discount on single HC and dual HC, if only dual HC is part of weaponry he gets perk benefits from? Let's say the Commando only had money to afford a single HC then... why can't he benefit from it at all then? Can he only handle its recoil, if he has one in each hand? It just... hurts my brain how illogical it all woud be Oo xD :D
 

poosh

Grizzled Veteran
Jan 6, 2011
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- Increasing Dual-HC weight should prevent accident pickup issue in most cases.
- If Commando will not get discount on single HC, then it will cost to him
 
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Aze

Grizzled Veteran
Mar 19, 2010
1,424
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- Increasing Dual-HC weight should prevent accident pickup issue in most cases.
Agreed. But, do you agreed that if it gets extra weight, it should get extra ammo too? Otherwise using Dual pistols has too many penalties compared to the amount of benefits.

- If Commando will not get discount on single HC, then it will cost to him
 
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CandleJack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 2, 2009
3,399
1,059
0
VIC
Every specimen must be a re-skinned Mr Foster with specimen parts.

They must also have the prefix Candle-

Candlepound - A Mr Foster with blenderfists.

Candlescrake - A Mr Foster with a chainsaw hand, that likes trousers and LOADSAMONEY.



Oh, i'm sorry, this isn't that kind of a community beta. I thought the community was the zombies.
 

Fish111

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 25, 2011
102
19
0
Holy wow, is the commando +60% lvl6 dmg still in?

The only thing I'm scared of as commando is scrakes, and that will make it a whole lot easier to take them down.

Also, is the american server still up with these test settings?
 

DDC1234

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 20, 2011
239
39
0
Middle of Nowhere
Every specimen must be a re-skinned Mr Foster with specimen parts.

They must also have the prefix Candle-

Candlepound - A Mr Foster with blenderfists.

Candlescrake - A Mr Foster with a chainsaw hand, that likes trousers and LOADSAMONEY.



Oh, i'm sorry, this isn't that kind of a community beta. I thought the community was the zombies.

Nice one:D