The honest thoughts of an RO:Ost vet
- Thread starter 20.PzGr.Fleck
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Danzig, Pavlov's, Fallen Fighters, Grain Elevator are THE SAME MAPS FROM Ostfront. The solution to this game's problem is fixing the gameplay, not making bigger maps.
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All these RO1 vets complaining about pace must have never played the old Danzig/Baskin Valley just to name two.These maps always had a very fast pace to be realistic to the battle of Stalingrad the official maps for now about have to be fast paced.The Germans called the fighting in Stalingrad the "Rat War" they claimed there was a Russian in every house the battle itself was very fast paced.
Its not the games fault its fast paced its the maps.Maps dictate the pace distance between objectives and distance to spawns etc.The battles in ro1 was designed to be more "wide open" with bigger maps and a slower pace to reflect these battles on the Russian steppe.
Coming to ro2 I wasn't expecting these type of slower paced battles.Knowing how the fighting in Stalingrad took place in RL its was about what I expected.To make slow paced maps would not have been realism while alot scream arcade or "cod" its very close to how the real fighting in Stalingrad was.
Don't judge this games pace until more custom maps are released or even official maps.That takes place outside of the city where the fight was more like what was seen in OST.Atm the fast pace game play is designed to be realistic to the real battle of Stalingrad was.
So its map design that dictates the fast pace of the game not game play mechanics.When APC's/custom maps are released I'm sure the vets will see some slower paced maps they are used to.While sometimes I do miss running a mile to reach a capzone.I still enjoy the chaotic battles that's realistic to the "RatWar" found in ro2 as well.
Its not the games fault its fast paced its the maps.Maps dictate the pace distance between objectives and distance to spawns etc.The battles in ro1 was designed to be more "wide open" with bigger maps and a slower pace to reflect these battles on the Russian steppe.
Coming to ro2 I wasn't expecting these type of slower paced battles.Knowing how the fighting in Stalingrad took place in RL its was about what I expected.To make slow paced maps would not have been realism while alot scream arcade or "cod" its very close to how the real fighting in Stalingrad was.
Don't judge this games pace until more custom maps are released or even official maps.That takes place outside of the city where the fight was more like what was seen in OST.Atm the fast pace game play is designed to be realistic to the real battle of Stalingrad was.
So its map design that dictates the fast pace of the game not game play mechanics.When APC's/custom maps are released I'm sure the vets will see some slower paced maps they are used to.While sometimes I do miss running a mile to reach a capzone.I still enjoy the chaotic battles that's realistic to the "RatWar" found in ro2 as well.
All these RO1 vets would get killed just as easily in any game or even real life because they are not able to adapt to the situation. What is happening around them has to happen at a certain speed and a certain distance, it has to happen in a certain place with a certain kind of weapon. If everything is perfect, they can kill with precision and ferocity. If not, they die.
These guys are amateurs playing soldiers, not real solders, at least in terms of the way they think. When I did infantry training, we were practically programmed so that any time staff (what the soldiers training you are called) could say to you "What is the role of the infantryman?" and the first words out of your mouth without thinking were "To close with and kill the enemy".
One sentence that encapsulates the infantryman's role, and the RO1 vets only do half of it.
There is a Biritsh documentary series airing at the moment called Young Soldiers. The first couple of episodes let you see a few of the things they do to program the raw recruit and turn him into a soldier. Most of them have nothing to do with shooting.
From day one, you are yelled at and "beasted" whenever you make the slightest mistake or hesitate. You do exactly what you're told the instant you're told it, without thought. You are being trained to become part of a well oiled machine that DOESN'T think for itself. Thinking is dangerous. You don't have time in combat to think. Your commanders and your training will do all the thinking for you. Just apply the tactics you are taught to accomplish the tasks you are given.
This is done for two reasons. One is to make everyone as uniform as possible, so that a commanding officer knows if he says to do something, no matter which soldier he says it to, they all know what he wants and how to do it. The other reason is for the soldiers benefit as much as any one else. He is constantly pressured, even when he is physically and mentally exhausted, so that he can get used to the sensory overload. It's like a boxer sparring with an opponent before a fight. He is "conditioning" his mind and body to deal with the pace and stress and confusion of combat, and telling him what to do when he CAN'T think: Follow your orders.
That's what I mean about these RO1 vets being amateurs playing at soldiers. Amateurs don't undergo the intense psychological training that real soldiers do, so they simply can not fathom why someone would stick his head up to try and see where the MG that is shooting at him might be.
To them, the bullets are everything. To a soldier, not letting down his comrades, his commanders and his country (in that order) is everything. If he DOESN'T think like that, he won't make it through the training. The majority of people who enter basic training, no matter how fit or physically strong, no matter how intelligent, simply can not adjust to the different way of thinking. They are the people that get their comrades killed, so they aren't welcome.
You read the stories the soldier tells when he gets back from the front and think that is how he was thinking when he was actually there. More often than not, it isn't. That is how he thinks once he has had time to process what happened, and what he did. That happens AFTER the battle. During the battle all he was thinking was "Close with and kill the enemy" - thats how he was TRAINED to think.
Up to and during WWI, armies approached each other in force, forming long well defined front lines. Everything 'that side' was 'no man's land' or 'enemy territory' while everything 'this side' was friendly territory and safe, even relatively close to the front line itself. This is how the RO1 vets fight a battle. They expect all the enemy to be "over there" and nothing but friendlies to be "over here".
When they guy beside them ISN'T a friendly, they go to pieces. They have no time to think, they have not trained their reactions, so they do stupid things and are easily killed. Then they complain about it not being realistic because of the sway, or because the SMG/AS the guy used is overpowered. It's never about how they reacted to the situation, it's always someone else's fault.
They are no more realistic in the way they think than any CoD style Rambo.
All the guys complaining, whether they be RO1 vets, or new arrivals from the CoD style games, are the guys who quit or are thrown out of basic training. They are the guys that simply can not adjust to the role they are being expected to fulfil, and they would be more of a liability on the battlefield than they are worth.
Once more I'll point out that they are the same exact maps (including your example Danzig), but the gameplay is different. Gone is the kind of teamwork and tactical play we used to enjoy.
Danzig, Pavlov's, Fallen Fighters, Grain Elevator are THE SAME MAPS FROM Ostfront.
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Yes, I have several of both guns. And hitting a bullseye at 300 yards is hard, but hitting a mansize target is not hard at all at 300 yeards.
Less likely to hit it sprinting, though I've never sprinted with my rifles to try it. I have held breath though and tried to shoot when I HAD to exhale and take that breath. There is not as much sway as people think there should be. Any experience at all and you can hold your shoulder girdle steady while bracing the gun against your shoulder while your chest expands and contracts.
i agree with a lot of what OP has said, though i have come to terms that this is what the design team wanted. I love playing this game, though i'd like to play what was actually advertised, in terms of weapon rarity, RO1 feeling and whatnot. (I havent played RO1 yet, though. Sounds amazing.)
All i think is necessary is some server variables to get specialiced realism servers, which dont have 25 auto weapons and 5 riflemen who are waiting for an assault or an elite to log off, (and lets not even mention the mkb), no lockdown, and such. Is it very hard to do? Honest question.
All i think is necessary is some server variables to get specialiced realism servers, which dont have 25 auto weapons and 5 riflemen who are waiting for an assault or an elite to log off, (and lets not even mention the mkb), no lockdown, and such. Is it very hard to do? Honest question.
The problem is most people, even the people that have shot the actual rifles, have not been trained to shoot them at people. They have been trained to be accurate, but not effective. So they will brag about head shots, thinking I will be impressed by their skill, rather than laughing at the noob that doesn't shoot centre mass like real soldiers do.
An accurate shot hits the target it is aimed at. An effective shot hits the enemy. Target shooters don't think like that. They are looking for the bullseye, which means they have to go MUCH slower from a MUCH steadier position, which means they have to be MUCH further away in combat if they want to survive.
The things they call "tactics" are the things they are forced to do because of their lack of skill. I am not referring to shooting skill, I am referring to soldiering skill in general. They refuse to accept that fact though, so if it doesn't work for them in RO2, it's because the game is flawed, rather than their skill set.
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Ro2 is a faster running game the sprint speed is higher and also aiming is a bit faster so ya it is a tad faster gameplay.As far as teamwork and tactical gameplay its still here its just impossible to find on 64 man public servers atm. Where its more of a rambo style frag fest after playing some clan matches. I found that the tactical gameplay is still very much alive in ro2.
Alot of ro1 vets including myself took for granted the skill of the players and the tactical minds of those who played it.We became jaded after years of playing on public servers where teamwork was just 2nd nature.While yes its quite a shock to jump in on a 64 man server all doing their on thing then compare it to ro1 is just not fair.
I have said it before more than anything patients is required give the game time.Even the fabled ro1 wasn't what it is today when it first started as a mod.Still atm this game is more like ro1 than its unlike it and there will be no game that's any thing close to it.
To expect TWI to just make ro1 with better graphics would have not been a good sequel by the very definition of a good sequel.While I agree with all the vets complaints I just ask them to give tweaks time and custom maps/mods.When most of us played ro1 it wasn't love at first sight it took sometime to grow on us.
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I gotta say, it's really refreshing to hear RO1 vets that don't feel like they've been slapped speak up.
Wrong wrong wrong, it's not a matter of maps, it's a matter of mechanics, if I am able to aim in 0.001 seconds down the sights, running around with my gun in one hand and then instantly go from hipshooting to IS mode like call of duty, or if weapons have no sway recoil and when you shoot they shake a little but go back to the same position (like if there was a magnet) instead of going just up like in old red orchestra and let you compensate with the mouse (yes because the game auto-adjust the aim for you with autos/semi-autos, you can shoot one bullet and then the gun is back in the same millimetric position), everything just turned into arcade mode, and you can't negate it. I won't argue the accuracy of weapons such as the easy shooting of the mp40 up to 150 meters, it may be realistic i may be not, I don't care, what I want is a game with a good gameplay that gives you the realistic war feeling of red orchestra.
You know with the easy shooting you no longer need cover as long as you aim at the enemy position, because you'll hit 100% of the times.
You know nobody wanted red orchestra with better graphics, but when they announced the game was going to be called red orchestra 2, people expected they wouldn't break those fundamental few key features they had in roost, again, no zoom/low zoom, sway, recoil, delay to go into IS mode, then experimenting would have been very welcome, not even the prototype guns would have matter that much.
I mean if you have played and are used to those kind of games like battlefield bad company or something like that and you find it nice to have those mechanics in red orchestra 2 it's good for you, but some people expected something else for a game with the red orchestra tag.
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Agree with OP's view.
Their is just far to many Semi or fully automatic weapons on the game in all the map so it is completely un-enjoyable. I hope that custom mappers will tone down the amount that are aviable. Also that TWI do on all the maps that are avaible at the moment.
I don't mind the unlock system but agree that the scope for the G41 is useless rather use the normal Iron Sights.
Their is just far to many Semi or fully automatic weapons on the game in all the map so it is completely un-enjoyable. I hope that custom mappers will tone down the amount that are aviable. Also that TWI do on all the maps that are avaible at the moment.
I don't mind the unlock system but agree that the scope for the G41 is useless rather use the normal Iron Sights.
I agree with OP on many cases.
Especialy the team balance. I mostly play with the russians, because i always found them awesome just like the grand majority favours the Germans
Well
I have a win ratio off... 0.40 official, counted with the times my stats did not go recorded(i kept record of it) i came up with 30 matches played...of wich i won 9 times and lost 21 times.
I never played ROOST or DH. or any RO1 game, but the past week i was able to at my mates place. who has this game. And i can 100% see now why many Ro1 fans are so dissapointed in this game. Look i like this game, despite the obvious OP german side, but Dual mag MP40? COMMON.
Especialy the team balance. I mostly play with the russians, because i always found them awesome just like the grand majority favours the Germans
Well
I have a win ratio off... 0.40 official, counted with the times my stats did not go recorded(i kept record of it) i came up with 30 matches played...of wich i won 9 times and lost 21 times.
I never played ROOST or DH. or any RO1 game, but the past week i was able to at my mates place. who has this game. And i can 100% see now why many Ro1 fans are so dissapointed in this game. Look i like this game, despite the obvious OP german side, but Dual mag MP40? COMMON.
Not with iron sights tho, which is like having a crosshair without recoil. Shouldn't be so easy to go to iron sights while sprinting, without momentum. Can anyone really line up a guns sights in the blink of an eye while sprinting? You don't even have a pause before the gun shoots centre of the screen
But in RO:OST it was backwards, they used sprint in FREEAIM to make it go dead center and shooting at the middle of scene even without a cross hair is easy...
+1
I doubt they will change it though since they haven't responded on any of these complaints by a large part of the community.