The flaws of RO2's leveling system

[PhoenixDragon]

This is what polling is for!

Internet polls are just about useless.

Internet polls conducted on very narrow-selection sites such as game forums are even moreso.

Have you spent much time hanging around gaming forums? They are a gold mine of horrible ideas, rampant whining, and complete lack of understanding of actual game mechanics and design. A few rare nuggets shine in the murk, but most players have no ability to see beyond the initial idea to realize how it will impact the gameplay, and many don't even have the ability to look at the whole picture to see if their idea even fits in. Most players have no concept of game design, and more, they often seem to carry a deep scorn for game designers, holding onto this illusion that they can easily do better than "those hacks." Instead, they throw out bad idea after bad idea, supporting it with appeals to emotion and vague claims ("It's too much," "it doesn't work," etc).

If you have a good idea, it should be able to stand on its own arguments, not through a popularity contest.

And as a hint, if you ever find yourself saying that someone doesn't understand your idea because they're "too experienced," you should take some time to reconsider things. (Seriously, it's like you tried to insult me, but missed so hard that you said "You know these things better than I do." I would say thank you for the compliment, except you seem to think that what you said means I'm wrong...)

You're also using a lot of fallacies to support your argument. The most notable ones I can see in the recent string of posts is accusing the others of "self interest" (Your argument relies almost entirely on personal feelings in the matter), and are quick to say that people who don't mind the progression system shouldn't count in the discussion because they must be biased. Yet, you speak in vague terms about being annoyed at feeling compelled to compulsively grind to get a new texture for a weapon, while I've been discussing gameplay effects and the mechanics of a progression system. You should try actually addressing the arguments made, instead of just dismissing them as "not naive enough."

 

[Sarkis.]

I see what is taking place here.

''Screw the progression system, let's talk about Sarkis and his flaws, and opinions, and fallacies.''

Well, guess what. I have my share of flaws alright. And they won't be fixed from the night to the day. I don't care if my arguments are not so sound, I really don't. I have already made my case well enough as to why I am right and the thing deserves revision. And a ton of people have agreed.

It is time to have a revision. TWI, Yay or Nay?

 

[PhoenixDragon]

I don't care if my arguments are not so sound, I really don't. I have already made my case well enough as to why I am right and the thing deserves revision.

The fact that you don't see any conflict between these two sentences shows why you are not a game designer.

My post wasn't criticizing you, it was criticizing your arguments. Yes, they are not sound. No, you have not made your case "well enough." You dismiss arguments that are sound, generally by just ignoring or insulting them. If you can't even look at and consider sound arguments, how can you possibly expect to make good decisions? You're not only working with flawed reasoning, you seem proud of it. Simply put, if you can't even put in the effort to make your own arguments sound, why should anyone bother to listen to it?

 

[Comrade Kaizer]

Ah, well that wasn't fair... one of those polls indicate something I have had a moderately recent (or since then) change of opinion with.

One thing for certain that I will not deny is my displease with artificial stat buffs associated with "leveling". It is a rich get richer system I'll never be entirely fond of - it's wrong. It's also my opinion.

Enemy load-outs I honestly have no quarrel with. It reflects some authenticity on the period in which one faction preferred the weapon of another and continued their campaign with said particular weapon. I purposely stated that in a very general fashion because the compromise isn't the point here.

At this point in the game's shelf life I'm certain the leveling system will not go nor change drastically... as too many players have already engaged/invested in the system (whether legitimately or not).

Some reasonable tweaks to it would be favorable though and I would hope to see something of that degree explored in the future but as of now - if it isn't creative, constructive suggestion(s) being discussed, it's a bit of a dead horse.

 

[Ritterkreuz]

I'd like to get the MG34 with belt. But I don't want to kill 2,000+ bots to do it..

 

[stern]

I'd like to get the MG34 with belt. But I don't want to kill 2,000+ bots to do it..

Amen brother!
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and oddly i like the leveling system, ive been grinding like cheap pole dancer to get my hero squad leader, id i probably cry (not too much) then carry on if it all went away.

but all i can say is id prefer if bots didnt give you any exp or stat or achievement unlocks. bots filling up a server before humans arrive is fine, but playing against solely bots just for teh exp is very lame, and those people are often those that play lame even against humans. and that is the only fault i see in the system.

 

[Ritterkreuz]

The leveling up system is 'ok', if they just dramatically lower the requirements to about 1/3rd of the present state.

The upgrades (outside of the MG34 belt) aren't good enough to warrant such effort.

 

[migmadmarine]

Especally with side-arms.

 

[[Mad_Murdock]]

You know, half of me agrees with Sarkis and half of me doesn't.

Personally I think ~3300 kills with a sniper rifle is absurd. Top listed sniper aces of the war scored less than ~500. Thus it makes no sense to make a player grind all that way for a new scope. 1/3 of that is fine. I will use myself as an example. Personally, I work 40 hours a week, I also have other responsibilities, I play maybe 3 hours of games a day on average, that's 21 hours a week. I play a lot of different games and I have exactly one weapon at level 50, the MN91/30, my PPSh is at level 47. I have played since release, and then reset. Obviously, getting 3300 kills with a sniper rifle is beyond my achievement, first because it is hard enough to get the marksman class, and secondly because I simply do not have the time required. Pistols, as a consequence are out of the question.

However, I do enjoy some perks of the unlock system. For example, I appreciate that I have a wider selection of weapons as a more experienced player. (Enemy loadout notwithstanding, enemy loadout is an abomination best relegated to the deepest layers of hell, if i wanted an enemy weapon i'd kill one and pry it from his cold dead hands like a real man) I also enjoy some of the stat bonuses, for example, I can testify from IRL experience that a man who has been reloading an M91/30 for several years is gonna be much quicker at it than one who has been shooting it for two weeks.

I guess what I really want is for the unlock system to make sense. Sometimes it does, as in the case for quicker reloads, the better scopes on the sniper rifles, cosmetics on some of the pistols, etc. But other times, as seen in the C96 full auto, the bayonets, the lack of anything for half of the Soviet weapons, and most importantly in the PPSh, it is complete horse****. It makes no logical sense whatsoever, and that is what drives me up the wall.

I don't know where exactly I stand on this. Even if the requirements were lowered I still wouldn't have all the sniper unlocks, and I don't care because I don't play that class. I think it was a bold decision for TWI to go this route, but I wish they had spent a couple weeks (or at least two more meetings), on actually fleshing it out.

To summarize, I am not against unlocks per se, but I just want them to make sense dammit.

 

[Sarkis.]

You know, half of me agrees with Sarkis and half of me doesn't.

...

To summarize, I am not against unlocks per se, but I just want them to make sense dammit.

So, you seem to agree with me entirely, it appears.

 

[PhoenixDragon]

Personally I think ~3300 kills with a sniper rifle is absurd. Top listed sniper aces of the war scored less than ~500.

And they did it all in one life, too.

Give those guys some respawns, and I'd be interested to see how high their count got.

 

[Ritterkreuz]

I finally got the level 25 MG34, and it's a treat. The non-upgraded Mg34 is much less effective than this.

Level 1 MG34- 50 rounds drum, barrel starts smoking after 60 rounds fired. The frequent barrel changes are a pain, and make the MG34 a chore to play. only 200 rounds issued.

Level 25 MG34-75 rounds drum, barrel starts smoking after 120 rounds fired. The combination of a critical extra 25 rounds, and the lack of barrel smoke & clear sight picture improves the weapon immensely. Around 250-275 rounds issued. The extra ammo makes a significant difference.


How many rounds does the level 50 MG34 need to fire before the barrel starts smoking?

 

[PhoenixDragon]

Level 1 MG34- 50 rounds drum, barrel starts smoking after 60 rounds fired. The frequent barrel changes are a pain, and make the MG34 a chore to play. only 200 rounds issued.

Level 25 MG34-75 rounds drum, barrel starts smoking after 120 rounds fired. The combination of a critical extra 25 rounds, and the lack of barrel smoke & clear sight picture improves the weapon immensely. Around 250-275 rounds issued. The extra ammo makes a significant difference.

You might want to make sure you're firing those on the same maps, since ambient temperature makes a difference. Weapon level doesn't appear to affect the weapon heat code at all, only the type of barrel used (Of which there are only two, MG34 and DP28).

 

[Ritterkreuz]

I played a summer, then a winter map...that's probably why.

Good info, and good attention to detail by the designers.

 

[Cwivey]

The double drum on the MG34 seems to take a little longer to load and change barrel with because of the size of the double drum, so there's a trade off for having more bullets.

 

[Ritterkreuz]

Actually, I think drums reload around the same time, because the gunner has to lift the cover of the 34 just to reload level 1. In level 25, there is no such action.

However, the level 25 barrel change is slower, as the gunner has to unload the drum first.

I've picked up level 50 MG34s and the reload is faster than either, and it's a totally superior weapon.


My most desired upgrades:

1. Level 50 MG34
2. Level 25 PPSH
3. Level 25 MP40
4. Level 50 SVT
5. Level 50 G41

 

[Sarkis.]

Lvl 50 MG34 introcudes funny out of sync animation when reloading, Lvl 50 SVT40 is purely cosmetic and introduces a unfinished texture to the muzzle brake. Lvl 50 G41 is purely cosmetic. All lvl 50s have the weapon bonuses however.

 

[Ritterkreuz]

I am primarily a squad leader player, and I want to extend my gameplay to machinegunner as well. I don't use smgs, but I use semi-automatics. My SVT is at level 12 or so, and my G41 is at around level 20. I consider these to be my cornerstone weapons in the game.

I bot farmed the MG34 to level 25, and I plan on botfarming it until level 50 and veteran status.

Then I plan on learning how to play machinegunner, as I've noticed that this is a favorite of top players.

 

[Cwivey]

I bot farmed the MG34 to level 25, and I plan on botfarming it until level 50 and veteran status.

Then I plan on learning how to play machinegunner, as I've noticed that this is a favorite of top players.

Swap those around and you wont have to even bot-farm at all.

 

[Sarkis.]

Swap those around and you wont have to even bot-farm at all.

Not really. Unless he plays for some good 4 months.