The flaws of RO2's leveling system

[CocaineInMyBrain]

One thing is for sure, we are not the aggressors, and we are certainly innocent, all we do is try to help RO, even if that takes us against the stream... the mainstream even for we are loyal fans.

I stand for my demand, as I said, a demand for nothing but a revision, not much of a demand really, If what is demanded is clearly something I will have no sway or final decision in, or at all.

While the word will remain as being a demand, as I do believe I have a say on this, (long forgotten INB4RESET). One can hardly say I am trying to dictate anything at all. I demand respect in our little developers/players relation.

While this progression system's absurd requirements and faults continues to insult our intelligence, yes, I will, demand. I am a customer, who was promised many things by the developers before the game was launched, most of which I did not hold them accountable for, and don't plan to, and that would be unfair to.

Someone has to do the dirty work of standing for the innocent Red Orchestra loving player. So long as I can, I will do that.

And good suggestion Ross. I would also go for reducing the requirements, design them in such a way that anyone can unlock everything at one point, perhaps, maybe after 600 hours of play, that would suffice I guess. Maybe even less, anything that will make it a more of a sideshow. Was it a sideshow now, we would not be having problems with it.

So its just the usual "cover your ears, cant hear you lalaalal" routine huh Sarkis? I guess some people can't face the fact that whatever camp they side with isn't the righteous crusade they thought it was. So outright asking for removal of features that were present in the game for over a year is not being aggressive? *note I am not talking about this thread, or even you specifically There s reason you got that nice all expenses paid vacation, and no its not because there uber-sekrit forces at work trying to undermine the sacred RO purist cause. But you clearly can't accept that, and it will always be "us vs them" "if i don't screw them over , they will screw me " attitude with you.

Anyways on the issue of the unlocks, there's no reason to not lower some of the requirements , especially on things like pistols and AT rifles (the AT class in general actually). Also, standard equipment (bayos for bolties, drum mags) should be just that, standard equipment , and shouldn't require an unlock. I don't see why the more extravagant unlocks (MKB, AVT, dual mag MP40, various scope mounts) shouldn't stay in the game as part of the existing Action mode. Sure it doesn't fit in with regular RO , but with the existence of action mode theres no reason to not just throw it in there.

I honestly don't think the unlock system it self should be that much of a bother to any one once the whole issue , if the whole Ranked/Unranked server thing was such a mess right now. I'd say try to fix that first and stuff like unlocks/progression and other community requested customization will come along much easier.

 

[PhoenixDragon]

You know, thinking on it more, I'm actually fairly happy with how much it takes to unlock most of the stuff. Mind, I say this as someone who doesn't have a single weapon to 50 yet. I don't have some obsessive compulsion that I must have everything unlocked. I can appreciate the desire to have a progression system where each step is an upgrade, and often a very minor one (3.5x to 4x isn't much of a difference in capability, but still offers a reward). It does its job well as a carrot and occasional reward, without having any significant effect on gameplay. And yes, if you're going to have unlocks, it needs to take time, particularly if you're trying to implement weapon rarity through it.

I'd still design it differently if I were in charge, but as progression systems go, RO2 has it down pretty well.

 

[TrOOper]

I am neither a fan of the leveling system nor am I against it...It has been with us for a year. Over that time, i havent changed my game play one bit to chase any upgrade. I have played with the weapons i have always used. Mainly rifles and semis. These are the only weapons I have hit level 50 on. The server i usually play on doesnt have pistols for every class...consequently i am maybe level 0 or 1 with them....That doesnt bother me in the least...I think this whole thread is no more than a tempest in a teapot... In other words, much ado about nothing......The progression system is not a game changer. Its only a problem if you wish to make it so..
Of course this is just my opinion.....i find it difficult to understand the mindset of those that can think it destroys the whole game.....I enjoyed RO1 and its mods for many years. I currently am enjoying RO2...I am really looking forward to new content in the near future...

 

[Capt.Cool]

C96 - Requires 7150 kill points to get Lvl 50.
Kar 96 - Requires 1650 kill points to get Lvl 50.
MP-40 - Requires 7150 kill points to get Lvl 50.
MG-34 - Requires 6600 kill points to get lvl 50.
Scoped G-41 - Requires 7700 kill points to get lvl 50.

3500+ kills for a pistol ? This is a joke, right?!?

This only leads to the totally unrealistic situation that every soldier tries to kill the enemy with a pistol on every occasion,
even when he has a much better weapon at his disposial (like smg or auto rifle).

Also the requirements for the sniper rifle is much too high!
As a sniper you dont kill that much people, cause you try to stay hidden all of the time.

The second reason is that you dont even have the opportunity to choose the sniper role, because this is the
most wanted role in the game and 95% of all games its already taken by someone with a faster PC than your...


So YES, please lower the killpoints for pistols and sniperrifles. Thanx.

 

[Sarkis.]

Cpt. Cool, each kill earns 2 killpoints.

http://bwhgaming.com/forums/m/323223/viewthread/4198058-weapons-classes-honor-xp-req-levels

So to know the number of kills you have to divide by two. The C96 requires 3575 kills for level 50. The K98 Sniper requires 3300 kills for level 50. Again, with such high requirements, the mere thought of having stuff unlocked will drive you to botfarming. And that's what people will do and have done. 20% of the people at all times are botfarming.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

Botfarming.... obviously there are those who enjoy doing so in pursuit of their goals. Why RUIN their fun, let them enjoy.

 

[Sarkis.]

Botfarming.... obviously there are those who enjoy doing so in pursuit of their goals. Why RUIN their fun, let them enjoy.

You have got to be kidding me...

 

[Mike_Nomad]

You have got to be kidding me...

Nope! I'm very serious. TYVM

 

[Sarkis.]

Well I happened to botfarm for hours and hours in this game, not because I wanted to botfarm, but I wanted to unlock stuff. Because otherwise, I simply wouldn't. I majorly play with a PPSh41 and TT-33. So it was either botfarm the other weapons or see them remain in LVL 5 or 6 for ever.

I botfarmed too much and I can tell, I did not enjoy the least bit of it. No one has never claimed to be enjoying themselves while botfarming. Unlocking stuff is good and rewarding, the actual work to get there is not. We could ease all that work and make it sensible. And not something that will waste hours of one's life for no good reason. Did the bots ever do something bad for us? Do we feel the need to draw so much bot blood? Is not really fun to do so really...

I am not trying to ruin anyone's fun. One would have to live in bizarro/republican world to believe that. It's the very opposite, I want

 

[ross]

I find it extremely hard to believe anyone 'enjoys' botfarming.

 

[Proud_God]

Although I am convinced a progression system is wrong for any RO game, I think lowering the XP points required would improve it, as they are indeed quite insane atm.

 

[Sarkis.]

An idea I think would work well and help kill the need for botfarming: Untying the XP bonuses from the weapons. So that if you can simply buy your desired unlock with your pool of XP money. In that way, you can play however you want, and still unlock all the varied stuff in game.

Ex: I will only play with the PPSh41 and gain XP with it, but it won't go to LVL50 itself. It will give me the killpoints, and I will do with them as it pleases me. I can use them to unlock the DP-28 LVL50 or the 91/30 LVL 50, or even the PPSh41 LVL50.

It could even have a twist. You can only use XP points you gained as a german to unlock german equipments, and russian XP for russian equipment.

It would work really nice if I could use my exeding kill points from the PPSh41 or anyother weapon that went beyond the requirement for LVL50 at this point. And invest it in another weapon. Do that and kill bot providing killpoints at the same time and we're done.

 

[ButchCassidy]

I read a lot about changes to the game again in this thread.
Which I still think is totally unrealistic mainly because Yoshiro has already posted if players want major changes then producing a popular mod to prove your point is the way to go.
TWI will be more likely to sit up and take notice if your mod is constantly being played by a great deal of players.
I also can't see TWI changing the unlock/progression system because its been in place for many months and would cause far too many complaints from the larger community who are already playing the game as it is now and working their way through the progression system as it is now, I believe any major change at this stage in RO2's life cycle would not be at all well recieved by the larger community.
And yes people should suggest stuff and its good that they do but I also believe it has to be realistic in its intended impact on the larger community.
I don't want to put a damp squib on peoples hopes or discourage them from making suggestions but asking for major code or gameplay changes is not really taking the wider community into consideration because invariably those changes are being asked for in order to satisfy a very small minority compared to the 17/1800 other players playing and enjoying the game as it is in its present condition, who don't post here (nor want to) but would be very unhappy if the game was to suddenly be changed to suit a smaller minority of people.
Its no use asking for changes when you have no idea on the overall impact that those changes may have on the larger playerbase so again a mod would let that impact be tested and allow for changes to be made to compensate for that impact.
Yes TWI may make a minor change here or there but proving your point with a popular mod is (i think) the only way to get major changes into the game at this stage.

 

[Sarkis.]

Who is going to make a mod overriding TWI's system? What for? I would give all unlocks to everyone AND make a realistic loadout with the actual weapons and variants of Stalingrad! Which player out there is going to be so mad to start the game and find that now it takes a half the kills that it used to, to unlock something. ( Double XP weekend anyone? ) Why is it that the game having a problem for over a year serve as a justifiable reason as to why it should not get fixed? Unless of course you don't see 3300 kills for a sniper rifle or 20% of the playerbase being in botfarming sessions at any given time as a problem. Let alone the fact that a lot of the game's content will remain hidden away for ever from people's computers.

 

[ButchCassidy]

Who is going to make a mod overriding TWI's system? What for? I would give all unlocks to everyone AND make a realistic loadout with the actual weapons and variants of Stalingrad! Which player out there is going to be so mad to start the game and find that now it takes a half the kills that it used to, to unlock something. ( Double XP weekend anyone? ) Why is it that the game having a problem for over a year serve as a justifiable reason as to why it should not get fixed? Unless of course you don't see 3300 kills for a sniper rifle or 20% of the playerbase being in botfarming sessions at any given time as a problem. Let alone the fact that a lot of the game's content will remain hidden away for ever from people's computers.

Errm well you were given the mod to do this by Ducky some weeks ago?
As far as I was aware some of your friends are working on this to allow some of the common ideas you share to be play tested.
Is this no longer the case?

I am also aware that the ranking system can be disabled in webadmin.
It does de-rank a server but so what if you don't like progression..

In addition it seems to me that the problems you and others are experiencing are purely based upon your own perceptions and expectations of the game.
In my opinion this expectation was common among some people who liked RO1 in particular.
Yes, some features are not implemented yet and they maybe some while yet but TWI never hid RO2's features nor the fact that it was not an updated copy of RO1.
The beta testing exposed those features to all those who pre-ordered the game.
None the less I can understand those expectations (especially if you were expecting RO2 to be an updated copy of RO1) but they cannot be used as a reason to change the game to something that it clearly is not or was ever designed to be by TWI who clearly decided the game was not to be an updated copy of RO1.

For instance I don't perceive anywhere near the same problems with the game as you have because I was never expecting it to be something it clearly was not and furthermore I don't expect TWI to go making changes because it was not what I fully expected.

I am not saying you or anyone else is wrong.
I am saying that consistantly asking for features that you as an individual would like does not constitute enough of a reason for TWI to implement major changes even if another 10 or even 100 players may want them.

RO2 may not be what you wanted or expected but by providing modtools at least TWI have allowed people the opportunity to alter the game to more resemble what it is you expected.

 

[Proud_God]

It does de-rank a server but so what if you don't like progression..

No one will join the server because no one checks the unranked tab.

 

[ButchCassidy]

No one will join the server because no one checks the unranked tab.

But surely a popular set of game changes will get players into a server ranked or not.
If the ideas are truely of value and popular then players will find the server in order to re-inforce those changes to TWI and enjoy the gameplay.
I know for instance from reading these suggestion threads, that around 10 or so players who would try these changes.

As I said before, a popular mod will do more to make TWI look at those ideas than anything else.

 

[Sarkis.]

But surely a popular set of game changes will get players into a server ranked or not.
If the ideas are truely of value and popular then players will find the server in order to re-inforce those changes to TWI and enjoy the gameplay.
I know for instance from reading these suggestion threads, that around 10 or so players who would try these changes.

As I said before, a popular mod will do more to make TWI look at those ideas than anything else.

This is definitely not what this thread is about.

 

[Mekhazzio]

I find it extremely hard to believe anyone 'enjoys' botfarming.

A significant portion of the player base in just about any game with AI available will actively choose to play with AI, regardless of any other factor. Even Starcraft had its "comp stomps", and its AI was almost wholly incompetent.

No one will join the server because no one checks the unranked tab.

This is my only real beef with the progression system. I'm apathetic towards it for most purposes; it has a negligible impact on gameplay in any direction and is fairly innocuous as such things go...but the way the default server filtering means that if you spurn the progression system, you lose any chance that the great unwashed masses will ever see the server. This has pretty severe implications for modding - anything that touches gameplay enough to keep itself off the whitelist is essentially a complete waste of time.

 

[akb]

That's why i posted this [url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=83507[/URL]

It needs more support so go put your input in about what you think.