The flaws of RO2's leveling system

[Falkenhorst]

NO! the worse thing about the leveling system is that people can farm xp for unlocks. to get an advantage over people who play the game properly!

The worst part about the leveling system is you have to gain xp to unlock items that were part of a soldiers standard issue kit. Everything you have to unlock could be made optional. The only exception is the full-auto C96. Which could just be a Hero weapon.

 

[PhoenixDragon]

NO! the worse thing about the leveling system is that people can farm xp for unlocks. to get an advantage over people who play the game properly!

To me, if someone wants to waste hours of their time to get a negligible advantage, I'm not terribly bothered by it.

 

[Sarkis.]

To me, if someone wants to waste hours of their time to get a negligible advantage, I'm not terribly bothered by it.

So why not lower the requirements? That way, they win their stuff, advantages and unlocks, and maybe even you do as well, and remain indifferent. Everyone wins.

I for one, have practically 90% of what the game has to offer, but I am not indifferent about the struggle of other people, and the impact that the progression systems have in the game.

Hopefully, reason will prevail, and the requirements will be lowered.

 

[Ritterkreuz]

All the upgrades except for the MG34 and the SMGs are negligible. The rest make the gun and the class 25% better + additional ammo.

I'm noticed that a lot of guys are trying to level up their C-96. I've picked up these fully auto C-96s and I'm not terribly impressed. I just saw the requirements for it, and wow, it's as high as my MG that can shoot across the map.

 

[PhoenixDragon]

So why not lower the requirements? That way, they win their stuff, advantages and unlocks, and maybe even you do as well, and remain indifferent. Everyone wins.

*shrugs* The point of a progression system is to make it so not everyone has everything. It all depends on how rare they want to make the high-level stuff and how much they want encourage specialization over generalization.

 

[Grobut]

NO! the worse thing about the leveling system is that people can farm xp for unlocks. to get an advantage over people who play the game properly!

Welcome to the real world, this is what people do in a game that has unlockables, always has been, always will be.

And no, removing XP gain from bots would solve nothing, because there are many other ways to farm, like 2 guys agreeing to join an empty server on different teams, and then take turns killing eachother. Same basic outcome, both get free XP.


No my confused freind, the worst part of the leveling system is that it exists in the first place, not only because this is a WWII game and it simply does not make any kind of sense in this setting, but also because of this:

Expected, contingent rewards reduce free-choice intrinsic motivation.

Or put in plain English, when you give people known yardsticks to follow, they stop enjoying the journey for it's own sake, and only care about reaching the next yardstick.

This is the oft glossed over problem with opperant conditioning, it comes at a price, and for games in particular it is a heavy toll indeed.


Using opperant conditioning you can trick people into playing a shallow game for longer than they reasonably would, just by handing out medals or boosters for prolonged play, it is appealing to very base gathering and hording instincts embeded in our brain.

But the cost is that once people max out their achivement list or armory, the game simply dies for them. They have reached the victory state, they chased down the maguffin and now it is in their grasp, so there is nothing more to play for.


This is fine if you are Activision and you are selling CoD, because Activision doesen't want people to still play their game 3 years from now, god no, Activision wants people to buy the next yearly installment of their virtual treadmill, and the last thing they want is for you to still be running on last years treadmill.

But if you can't do yearly franchises, if you actually want people to play your game for a prolonged period of time, then using opperant conditioning is working directly against you, and is one of the worst things you could do.

People can play a well made and deep game for many years just because it is good, just because they enjoy it. But if you attach a virtual treadmill to it, then you have also given your game an artificial expiration date, people are going to run out of treadmill sooner rather than later, and then what happens?

Then they quit the game, because not only have they reached the victory state and beaten the game, but in doing so, the game became not just a trivial part of the grand quest for the maguffin, no, it became the enemy of the player, the very thing standing between him and obtaining the maguffin.


At this point the game is a vanguished foe and nothing more, and this is why people lose interest in their games once they unlock all the goodies. You would think they would be happy that now they can continue to play it with the desired weapons or perks, but no, it doesent work like that. It doesen't because now they have long since grown bored or even resentful of the game's content, because the content was not presented as beeing the game, but rather, as beeing the obstacle standing between the player and the maguffin, the thing that they had to grind their way past, and in that grind it became boring and unwelcome, and they nolonger enjoy it.

 

[MeFirst]

If you ask me the leveling system is a complete mistake. If a game like RO2 has to use a leveling system to keep people playing the game it shows that there is something wrong with the game. A game that is good enough gameplay and content wise does not need a leveling system. This is even a greater problem if the leveling system is nor working proplerly or is in a direct conflict to key points of the game like a realistic gameplay experience.

 

[Cwivey]

It's a good thing that RO2 is enjoyable then isn't it, I mean, maxed (nearly) everything out just through playing, enjoyed every minute because I didn't care all that much or think of it as a grindfest, and will continue to enjoy it so long as there's servers full of people. If you constantly look at it as a grindfest and not just ENJOY the game, then that's your own problem.


The major floor of the levelling system is the people that grind because they feel they should have something, rather than just playing the game and picking it up along the way. They are ruining it for themselves. It's not even the main focus of the game. >.>

 

[Ritterkreuz]

You must really, really like the game to play it so much that you maxed everything out...

I'm not sure if I'll be playing the game too much in times to come. I'm probably going to pick up the new MG, play Dan's WW V2, and then drop down my RO2 activity to 'occasional' as my favorite maps (Red October, Bridges, WW, Commissar's House (sometimes), and Spartan, are so few. I simply don't like a lot of the maps (Barracks, Apartments, the other mod maps, Palvov's house, etc.) and would play the game more if better ones came out.

 

[Cwivey]

You must really, really like the game to play it so much that you maxed everything out...

I put "nearly" in brackets, but yes. I do like the game that much, 623 hours of playing is proof of that. :>

 

[Sarkis.]

*shrugs* The point of a progression system is to make it so not everyone has everything. It all depends on how rare they want to make the high-level stuff and how much they want encourage specialization over generalization.

Well, if a revision is made, they could make it so that some things will continue to be a little bit rare, like say... the full auto C96. At the same time, they could greatly lower requirements for weapons that were common in Stalingrad and cosmetic upgrades, like the papasha drum, tt-33, bolt action rifles, semi auto rifles etc, the majority of unlocks in fact.

Wanting to make stuff become rare in a game about WW2 was pretty much a mistake, the moment they went to make common stuff from the era, rare as well.

On top of that, they could take away the MKb42 and the AVT, and make it so that it requires having LVL 50 on the MP40 and the PPSh41 respectively, to obtain them, or something like that. But no one is gonna do that haha! When the dust is in our eyes it suddenly hurts, right?

This system doesn't make too much sense, and probably never will, but having lowered requirements would go a long way into helping mitigate the damage.

TWI any words on the matter? How about doing so in the next big patch?

 

[Trotskygrad]

All the upgrades except for the MG34 and the SMGs are negligible. The rest make the gun and the class 25% better + additional ammo.

I'm noticed that a lot of guys are trying to level up their C-96. I've picked up these fully auto C-96s and I'm not terribly impressed. I just saw the requirements for it, and wow, it's as high as my MG that can shoot across the map.

C96 is impressive because it's the most powerful sidearm... compare it to weapons in it's same class and you'll notice that it's vastly superior.

 

[Ritterkreuz]

^
Yeah, it's better, but I feel just as secure with a semi-auto rifle in close quarters vs. the gimmicky C-96 full auto.


-------------
A good history-based progression system would involve entire weapons unlocks as the person gets a higher rank (from killing human players, not bots). These unlocks would have the option to use rare and enemy weapons + significant ammunition/equipment upgrades.

A L5 'battle decorated' soviet squad leader could win himself the option to have a AVT. All PPSH fed by drums by default w/ a L2 SVT option. A L3 Soviet squad leader could win access to the enemy MP40. At L4, an enemy G41.

L1 German squad leader- K98. A L2 'battle hardened' German squad leader could win himself the MP40 option. A L3 veteran German squad leader could win himself the G41 and use a captured enemy PPSH/SVT. a L5 'Hero' with the experimental STG...

All L3 german rifleman could get access to a pistol sidearm. A level 3 soviet rifleman could get access to the SVT instead of mosin.

 

[Sarkis.]

A good history-based progression system would involve entire weapons unlocks as the person gets a higher rank (from killing human players, not bots). These unlocks would have the option to use rare and enemy weapons + significant ammunition/equipment upgrades.

A L5 'battle decorated' soviet squad leader could win himself the option to have a AVT. All PPSH fed by drums by default w/ a L2 SVT option. A L3 Soviet squad leader could win access to the enemy MP40. At L4, an enemy G41.

L1 German squad leader- K98. A L2 'battle hardened' German squad leader could win himself the MP40 option. A L3 veteran German squad leader could win himself the G41 and use a captured enemy PPSH/SVT. a L5 'Hero' with the experimental STG...

All L3 german rifleman could get access to a pistol sidearm. A level 3 soviet rifleman could get access to the SVT instead of mosin.

Thinking too outloud there. G41 would have to be quite a rare weapon, AVT and MKb42 outrules you being able to call it history based. All german rifleman with sidearms, no way! All soviets rifleman with SVTs

nah screw it, I won't take that suggestion seriously no more, too much fantasy. Probably worse than what we have now.

 

[Ritterkreuz]

^

All my suggestions are history-based but also mixed with gameplay needs. Otherwise, we'd have the boring weapons in Classic.

AVT/Mkb42 are just 'fun' weapons, I see no reason to remove them from the game. I like both weapons, actually, but it's too bad that I can't use them much.

G41 wasn't really that rare- as I wrote before. There are plenty of pictures of squad/section leaders carrying that weapon in 1942. There are photos of German paras carrying the G41.

Soviet Paratroopers, Guards Infantry, and Naval infantry had some (or in case of naval infantry, sometimes all) of their battalions equipped with the SVT + DP MG. Their sections were all SVT rifles (in place of Mosin) w/ DP LMGs as base of fire.


Maps could be modified accordingly -to exclude certain weapons and include others. The SVT could be banned from Soviet riflemen in some levels, and in others, it could be standard.

In any event, the idea of asymmetrical weapons is pretty interesting to me. German sections would be heavily MG-based and have more of them (double Mgs), while Soviets would have more semi and fully automatic weapons. As they were in the actual war.

 

[Sarkis.]

TWI also called RO2 ''history based'', but having MKb42s and AVTs makes it be loosely based on history, and we don't want that.

Of course, realism mode is already fantasy mode. In fact, that's not even what we are discussing. The only thing that can actually be done, and should, is the lowering of the requirements for the unlocks. Additionally, a new optional Historical Loadout could be made as well, but to function like the Classic Loadout, as in, having no relation what so ever with the progression system. And Historical Classes and slots as well, just as there are Classic classes.

 

[Ritterkreuz]

Yeah I guess so.

The Classic games give me the impression that they're for people who LOVE bolt action rifles and slower, more deliberate movement speed.

I find killing somebody with the mosin/kar satisfying, but I'm more dangerous with a SVT or G41.

 

[[Mad_Murdock]]

^

All my suggestions are history-based but also mixed with gameplay needs. Otherwise, we'd have the boring weapons in Classic.

AVT/Mkb42 are just 'fun' weapons, I see no reason to remove them from the game. I like both weapons, actually, but it's too bad that I can't use them much.

G41 wasn't really that rare- as I wrote before. There are plenty of pictures of squad/section leaders carrying that weapon in 1942. There are photos of German paras carrying the G41.

Soviet Paratroopers, Guards Infantry, and Naval infantry had some (or in case of naval infantry, sometimes all) of their battalions equipped with the SVT + DP MG. Their sections were all SVT rifles (in place of Mosin) w/ DP LMGs as base of fire.


Maps could be modified accordingly -to exclude certain weapons and include others. The SVT could be banned from Soviet riflemen in some levels, and in others, it could be standard.

In any event, the idea of asymmetrical weapons is pretty interesting to me. German sections would be heavily MG-based and have more of them (double Mgs), while Soviets would have more semi and fully automatic weapons. As they were in the actual war.

This ladies and gentlemen, is a very intelligent human being and speaks volumes of sense. I love assymetrical balance myself. But I doubt we will be seeing it any time soon

 

[Ducky]

Please do not turn this thread into yet an other complain thread about RO2 isn't realistic. We already have enough threads about that and it will be considered off-topic with regards to this thread.

 

[Cyper]

so the worse thing with the leveling system is people make it so you cant farm xp, and make you cry?

NO! the worse thing about the leveling system is that people can farm xp for unlocks. to get an advantage over people who play the game properly!

you see these ****s (thats the C word for lady garden by the way) all the time with their lvl 99 tag thinking they good when they often play like ****..

i thought were cool mr cross.. but now i see you for what you are... a non cool person

Even if you play the game ''properly'' without botfarming you know as well as I or anyone else do that XP does not tell if you're a good player or not. Therefore, whenever you gain XP by botfarming or not does not really matter. It all boils down to the fact that your XP is dependent on how much you play the game not how you play the game. Those who spend hundreds of hours with the game get advantaged over those who spend less time with the game. So if you don’t spend ‘enough’ time with the game you’ll have less freedom of choice and other players will have an advantage over you. Fair? No! It’ stupid, and the only reason to why this system is used in videogames is to give player’s a ‘reason’ to play the game. The reason to why I started playing RO in the first place was because of freedom of choice not because I wanted the game to dictate what I can use or how I should play.

You're imo a good player when you only play for the enjoyment of playing, and you play for your team, not for a ''Hero'' Rank, not for some stupid unlock that gives you UNFAIR advantage over others, and you’re not a true player when you force yourself to play just in order to keep up with the other player’s unlocks/XP/whatever.

This is the mainreason to why I play Classic Mode. I would like the whole unlocksystem to be HISTORY in Rising Storm; and if it is, which is very unlikely, the player’s who endorse it will either accept it or leave the community. I care less of what they choose than what I care about an ant crawling down to its hole in the forest. It's a win or win situation.