The Elder Scrolls V

[I. Kant]

Smokey:
Disagree on the need to exploit the AI early on. If something demolished me, I would potion up. If I still got demolished, I backtracked out of the dungeon (did this for, e.g., Azura's Star dungeon and the Companions full membership quest) to return to it later, with better gear/skills.

Agree on the scaling. Loved how early on things would kill me if I allowed myself a second of lost focus. Really liked the broken resistances in v 1.2, when even after loading up on items designed to counter, say, frost breath I would be slapped around silly by frost magic. Once leveled up a bit - with the aforementioned culprits of smithing/ enchanting/ alchemy - I rarely have to use a potion during any but the hardest fights anymore.

 

[EvilAmericanMan]

I actually found that the game scaled too well. I'd get better material weapons, yet the default draugur would still take two Daedric Battleaxe hits to kill. Once I got some items that strengthened the power of two handed though they went down in one hit. It just didn't seem to make sense that the most epic weapons in the game were basically in practice just as powerful as the steel ones.

Also iron weapons are useless. You can get steel right off the bat (the imperial swords are steel). They also don't seem to be textured as well as others. I guess the only way to get use out of them past level 3 would be to walk everywhere and not fast travel so you have more chances to use your weapons in the wild. But still when you see NPCs use iron weapons when you're leveled in the teens but for you they're useless it just doesn't seem right.

 

[Zennousha]

I actually found that the game scaled too well. I'd get better material weapons, yet the default draugur would still take two Daedric Battleaxe hits to kill. Once I got some items that strengthened the power of two handed though they went down in one hit. It just didn't seem to make sense that the most epic weapons in the game were basically in practice just as powerful as the steel ones.

Also iron weapons are useless. You can get steel right off the bat (the imperial swords are steel). They also don't seem to be textured as well as others. I guess the only way to get use out of them past level 3 would be to walk everywhere and not fast travel so you have more chances to use your weapons in the wild. But still when you see NPCs use iron weapons when you're leveled in the teens but for you they're useless it just doesn't seem right.

Well that's one thing I can appreciate out of the smithing exploit. You can use it to wear whatever you want and use whatever you want later on and not lose effectiveness.

 

[smokeythebear]

I actually found that the game scaled too well. I'd get better material weapons, yet the default draugur would still take two Daedric Battleaxe hits to kill.

When you smithing buy a blacksmiths philter or whatever it's called and on improving your items you will get a nice chunk of bonus stats.

Without using any exploit I 1 hit kill a giant with my bow and the last dragon priest was also a one hit kill with a crit backstab. This is lvl 50 on master difficulty.

The only thing I think is really broken is sneak lends itself too well to the level design. The most intense moment for me was on entering labyrianthia proper you fight an undead dragon and a dozen skeletons with no way to back out but you could smartly use cover around the cavern. The fights like that are way too few and far between.

 

[SiC-Disaster]

Why not Zoidberg?

Skyrim Futurama Zoidberg Mudcrab Mod 1.1 - YouTube

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Thanks, I needed that laugh

 

[Fedorov]

dis mod

Skyrim Mod - Thu'uMic v0.1.1 Demonstration Dragon Fight - Use SHOUTS with your MIC! - YouTube

 

[REZ]

lol @ pausing and being able to drink 6 potions and perform a plethora of other tasks. How do you ever expect to die? I obviously havent played it yet (waiting for it to be much cheaper), but games with holes like this are just too damn easy. Are they not? The design testing must reveal at least that much, no? To me it seems like an opportunity to make the encounters much more epic if they actually have some gravity to them. When did challenge lose its appeal?

 

[Grimreapo]

And yet did you buy Darks Souls?

 

[REZ]

No, but don't think I haven't heard of it. I await the day it arrives to PC.

I just don't console.

 

[Fedorov]

lol @ pausing and being able to drink 6 potions and perform a plethora of other tasks. How do you ever expect to die? I obviously havent played it yet (waiting for it to be much cheaper), but games with holes like this are just too damn easy. Are they not? The design testing must reveal at least that much, no? To me it seems like an opportunity to make the encounters much more epic if they actually have some gravity to them. When did challenge lose its appeal?

In master, I normally get one shot killed regardless of my armor, and I run out of potions very quickly, they are barely enough to refill your bar twice, which is not enough for a dragon or a dungeon sometimes.

The game is hard, but is not a challenge, I'm gonna quote myself from another post to explain this:

My problem with Skyrim's dificulty is that is completely random an unfair, the game does not provide you with methods to evade or effectively block attacks.

A game like Demon's/Dark Souls, while hard, its combat relies purely on your skill, so I'd say it has a much fairer difficulty system.

That randomness/luck based/button mashing/potion spamming encouraged in Skyrim is what pissed me off the most. I ended up fast traveling everywhere just to NOT see a dragon (and even then), and ignore the missions that sends you to dungeons (which are almost all of them).

Next time I'll play it, its gonna be heavily modded, I can't stand the game anymore in its current state.

I just don't console.

Your loss, there are very nice things out there.

 

[REZ]

Your loss, there are very nice things out there.

Yeah, I hate to make it sound this way, I used to really enjoy consoles (PS2 was the last one for me), but I'm 35 and feel like an absolute douchebag sitting on the couch with a controller in my hand. The once in a blue moon Dark Souls type game that comes along, which will eventually make it to PC anyway, isn't enough for me to go there.

Besides..

..I'm an elitist prick, I have a standard to maintain.

I'm out! Back on topic, go, go, go!

 

[Fedorov]

Dark Souls type game that comes along, which will eventually make it to PC anyway!

Not necessarily, Demon's Souls never made it to PC.

 

[REZ]

Ahh, but would it be worth the hit my dignity would take when I see the reflection of myself, on the couch with a gamepad, in the sliding glass door? Hm? I think not.

 

[Fedorov]

Ahh, but would it be worth the hit my dignity would take when I see the reflection of myself, on the couch with a gamepad, in the sliding glass door? Hm? I think not.

I thought the same thing before buying the console, but then I realized that it was all meaningless prejudice.

I guess it all depends on how much useless thought you want to put into it. Playing a on a console doesn't have to symbolize anything.

 

[Bluehawk]

lol @ pausing and being able to drink 6 potions and perform a plethora of other tasks. How do you ever expect to die? I obviously havent played it yet (waiting for it to be much cheaper), but games with holes like this are just too damn easy. Are they not? The design testing must reveal at least that much, no? To me it seems like an opportunity to make the encounters much more epic if they actually have some gravity to them. When did challenge lose its appeal?

"Cutting holes in time" is canonical to the series.

 

[Nenjin]

It's just a symptom of every Bethesda game ever made.

Unlimited resources, after all. Kind of like, what's the point in having vendors and money when there is literally 3,000,000,000 gold worth of loot laying around to be stolen? What's the point in having any potions when a player can craft as many as they like from readily available ingredients, and even make potions to make their potion making better?

That's not a legitimate excuse for not adding stuff like: potion cool downs, animations for potion drinking, hot keys that make potion use outside of pause really viable.

But Bethesda games have always largely been "what you make of them." They're more interested in providing a player with a particular playstyle a good time, than they are in making sure the game is completely balanced for all approaches.

I'm pretty sure I could hit level 20 without killing anything more than the tutorial guys, and walk out with armor and weapons so badass that the next 20 hours of the game would be completely broken. But I don't choose to do that.

So yeah. To judge Bethesda games on how they perfectly hit balance is to judge them on something they've never gotten right or tried particularly hard at. It kind of pisses a body off at times, particularly when the game has just released and hasn't been completely revamped. Bethesda is one of the few dev houses that get away with putting out "3/4 of a game" and get judged on that basis alone. That's ok to me though, because they've always been committed to empowering players to create the 1/4 they feel the game is lacking.

If Bethesda didn't put out mod tools, to me they'd be the Activision of 1st Person RPGs, where the "movie" is more important than the game. Luckily, Bethesda is very aware of what makes their titles sell and what retains them a massive fan base.

 

[Zennousha]

That's not a legitimate excuse for not adding stuff like: potion cool downs, animations for potion drinking, hot keys that make potion use outside of pause really viable.

No, but those things also completely change the openness and difficulty/balancing issues of the game completely. There's times where on Master even with potions, unlimited use was seldom enough. Not to mention you still need to ACQUIRE the potions. Potions are less frequently found in comparison to other RPG games where these "features" exist.

But Bethesda games have always largely been "what you make of them." They're more interested in providing a player with a particular playstyle a good time, than they are in making sure the game is completely balanced for all approaches.

I think it's more an issue again of the open issue. It's a very large undertaking. And it's not like other RPGs are magically super balanced either. Plenty have abusable mechanics or playstyles that weigh more effectively than others, and they're linear. So by your logic, that'd be inexcusable

I'm pretty sure I could hit level 20 without killing anything more than the tutorial guys, and walk out with armor and weapons so badass that the next 20 hours of the game would be completely broken. But I don't choose to do that.

In certain areas, yes. There would still be other high level content areas that you would still struggle with though. Being high level doesn't mean you're guaranteed better equipment either (without abusing smithing).

So yeah. To judge Bethesda games on how they perfectly hit balance is to judge them on something they've never gotten right or tried particularly hard at. It kind of pisses a body off at times, particularly when the game has just released and hasn't been completely revamped. Bethesda is one of the few dev houses that get away with putting out "3/4 of a game" and get judged on that basis alone. That's ok to me though, because they've always been committed to empowering players to create the 1/4 they feel the game is lacking.

And yet those 3/4's are larger than most full games, DLCs, and expansions. I think you're completely underestimating how much work has to go into open world games with plenty of options.

If Bethesda didn't put out mod tools, to me they'd be the Activision of 1st Person RPGs, where the "movie" is more important than the game. Luckily, Bethesda is very aware of what makes their titles sell and what retains them a massive fan base.

If that was the case, then why are the storylines seldom the focus of TES games, considering their length? The main quest is just as much of the game as the side quests, or the guilds. It's the whole experience, not the part. I also heartily enjoy your concept of proclaiming TES to be akin to story driven linear experiences when it's the antithesis of that.

Welp.

 

[Nenjin]

There's times where on Master even with potions, unlimited use was seldom enough

Because that's how they constructed it. To me that's an artificial level of difficulty when you can go through a stack of potions in your menu screen, and need to do it again 6 seconds later because there's 8 guys wailing on you and a mage hosing you down with spells. It's not a terribly enjoyable form of balance to me. Combat ends up spammy on both ends of the spectrum.

And yet those 3/4's are larger than most full games, DLCs, and expansions. I think you're completely underestimating how much work has to go into open world games with plenty of options.

Er, I played Oblivion. That showed pretty clear how much of a cut 'n paste job Bethesda was working from. They've obfuscated that a lot over time, but if you look hard enough, you'll see it again and again. For example, Nord tombs and Frostbite Spider Lairs in Skyrim. I appreciate how much work it takes. I also appreciate how a good formula makes it possible to crank that **** out quickly. (And having enough artists to dress it up in different stuff.)

And it's not like other RPGs are magically super balanced either. Plenty have abusable mechanics or playstyles that weigh more effectively than others, and they're linear. So by your logic, that'd be inexcusable

I think you're substituting your logic for mine. I do agree that it's a product of the openness. But on the other hand, I just bought this game for my brother, an avid RPG gamer who has never played a Bethesda game in his life. The first real observation from him about the game? "Why the hell are these bandits dying in one hit and they're not even scratching me?" And that was before he even reached Riverwood. He didn't have a playstyle to speak of, and it already struck him as too easy. He didn't have to use a single potion until he pissed off a shopkeeper and got jumped by the Revenge Squad, who was a whole tier above him. Watching a newbie play Skyrim was actually pretty educational, because of the amount of stuff he didn't know about and didn't need to, to steam roll everything.

I don't require that games be perfectly balanced. I do require that they have enough balance to makes the gameplay meaningful at default difficulty. Skyrim is pretty sporadic in that regard, in my opinion. Smithing only exacerbates it.

If that was the case, then why are the storylines seldom the focus of TES games, considering their length? The main quest is just as much of the game as the side quests, or the guilds. It's the whole experience, not the part.

Are we talking from the player's perspective here, or the dev's? Because Bethesda games are driven by the storylines from the dev's perspective, that's where a large amount of the work goes. And in Skyrim in particular, I feel like they've focused way more on appearances than they ever have before. I'd point to the tutorial dragon attack as an example of that thinking.

Skyrim is literally the premier Mountain Vista Simulator on the market right now and that's what I think has sold it to people more than anything. The Dragon Fights, which are terribly balanced, are all about appearances. Can you honestly say you weren't sick of dragons by your 10th one, or that you didn't find the fights themselves shallow at some point?

I feel like Bethesda emphasized a lot of things in their game that puts it on par with a production like MW2. Where they want to give you a cinematic experience and that was at the forefront of their thinking. It doesn't stop it from being a Bethesda game, with all the open world work they do and the vast amount of content they generate. But once the novelty of both Dragons and staring off a 1,000 foot mountain wore off, the experience was a lot less glamorous.

I also heartily enjoy your concept of proclaiming TES to be akin to story driven linear experiences when it's the antithesis of that.

When you've played 3 characters in a Bethesda game, it starts to feel a lot more linear that it did at first blush. Subtract out all the sites you know, all the loot you know is there, all the mini-quests, and you're left with a lot of stuff to do on the periphery of the map you never get around to. You end up doing a lot of the same things, the same way. Not all quests have an alternative to explore either (in some places frustratingly so, like the Thieves Guild quest which is, in terms of outcomes, 100% linear.)

Does that make the whole game linear? No. Becoming linear? Consider having to do everything up through Whiterun, and maybe even up through the Graybeards, to really be on the "main game." Consider how many staged events and "epic moments" there are along that path.

I like Skyrim plenty but I definitely got the impression they wanted to deliver more movie-quality experiences. And personally I think the way game play mechanics shook out is where some of that time should have gone. Because it's the mechanics that are stopping me picking Skyrim back up, and not the epicness that makes me want to play it again.

 

[Reise]

dis mod

Dat guitar rape.

Looks hella fun to actually say the shouts. Makes the Dragonborn feel a lot more powerful.

And if you guys want to talk about "artificial difficulty" Demons and Dark Souls replace potion chugging with pattern memorization. You can finish those games without taking a single hit.

But I like both Skyrim and the Souls games.

People would also be less annoyed with dragons if they were rare and very challenging and dangerous. Bethesda messed up by making it so Joe Average could just sit on a mountain of Dragon Souls so he could unlock all his shouts in one playthrough without as much effort.