The current state of balance in Killing Floor

[Aze]

Like most have said, Support is slightly OP in the hands of someone who knows how to play him. However, I think the biggest change needs to come in the form of his grenades. At his current state, the grenades are what enable him to effectively solo any mob.

Being that the Demolition perk exists, there is absolutely no reason for the Support's grenades to do any more than normal grenade damage, and no reason for him to be able to carry any more than normal. Remove the damage bonus, and reduce the amount carried to 5.

This change, I feel, would balance the class out perfectly. He still retains the power of hit shotguns, which is great for mopping up mobs, and is a great aid to help others take out problem Scrakes/Fleshpounds, etc. All of this, while putting more of an emphasis on keeping the wields up, rather than running around blowing stuff up.

There is ONE reason mainly which i can see why Support gets more and/or stronger grenades: Too be able to breach doors more often and/or faster than other perks (Cept for the Demo now too ofc).

While i too agreed that the grenade damage bonus sorta is unnecessary for Support, i think the extra amount is ok, as it suits with his "heavy carrying" bonuses. Sure, that CAN be scrapped too, but imo, the damage removal is the only one i would completely shrug off and say it was a perfectly fine nerf. But the extra amount? Dunno, it sorta fits with the perk's carrying abilities and his (un)welding bonuses. But that's just my opinion ofc

 

[OCAdam]

There is ONE reason mainly which i can see why Support gets more and/or stronger grenades: Too be able to breach doors more often and/or faster than other perks (Cept for the Demo now too ofc).

While i too agreed that the grenade damage bonus sorta is unnecessary for Support, i think the extra amount is ok, as it suits with his "heavy carrying" bonuses. Sure, that CAN be scrapped too, but imo, the damage removal is the only one i would completely shrug off and say it was a perfectly fine nerf. But the extra amount? Dunno, it sorta fits with the perk's carrying abilities and his (un)welding bonuses. But that's just my opinion ofc

And I'll second this bit pretty quickly. If anything, maybe just a small reduction in grenade carry capacity could be in order, but keeping the capacity increase in general.

 

[outofrealman]

Like most have said, Support is slightly OP in the hands of someone who knows how to play him. However, I think the biggest change needs to come in the form of his grenades. At his current state, the grenades are what enable him to effectively solo any mob.

Being that the Demolition perk exists, there is absolutely no reason for the Support's grenades to do any more than normal grenade damage, and no reason for him to be able to carry any more than normal. Remove the damage bonus, and reduce the amount carried to 5.

This change, I feel, would balance the class out perfectly. He still retains the power of hit shotguns, which is great for mopping up mobs, and is a great aid to help others take out problem Scrakes/Fleshpounds, etc. All of this, while putting more of an emphasis on keeping the wields up, rather than running around blowing stuff up.

Support and demo berserker are really OP in good hands.

Commando and firebug, on the other hand, have to be quite pro to match adverage level demo support in team play.

If they really nerf something, they wont just nerf it slightly like "remove the nade bonus on support" only. Remember chainsaw? Remember xbow?

 

[iburnstuff]

If you find nothing else about my reply agreeable with, i hope at least you will agree with me that there is only 2 ways to play killing floor, camp or kite. While many have posted there own opinions about the firebug and that some of my opinions may overlap don't start to tell me how there are so many posts like mine has been posted before me just yet. Because mine revolves around the concept of camp and kite, and the firebugs role in it. The scenarios below all assume playing on HoE difficulty.

Many of you seem to think that the firebug is balanced but lets go back to the concept of camp and kite. To camp means you will need sufficient fire power to stop the crap from overrunning your position. In a typical camping team you have support to take out lots of trash, and commando to pick off the remaining isolated trash that support missed with a headshot. What about the firebug?

A firebugs role is to handle the trash, since it can't take on the big guys. Despite undedd jester's opinion that firebug is just there to weaken and slow down the horde, this never happens. Why? Consider your typical camping scenario, long corridor full of trash coming at you, quick tap with flamethrower undedd jester says. What really happens is you light up the front line of the horde(because flamethrower does not have piercing ammo nutterbutter!) who by the time crisps up and dies would be almost in your face, while the rest of the trash behind the front line would be unharmed and now in your face requiring the support to clean up for you. What is the worth of the firebug in dealing with trash? Support commando team would beat support firebug team everytime because commando can pick off alot of weak zeds with a headshot before it gets to close unlike firebug who can only set the front row on fire. Before you even start on how firebug has mac10, look at the points below.

1. mac10 has only 300 rounds max, ak and scar has 375
2. mac10 can't decapitate trash with 1 shot, ak and scar can
3. mac10 may have DoT but it takes too long to crisp and kill, while ak and scar can decap immediately, only takes trash a few seconds to die after that, not 10 secs(gorefasts dont die at all)
4. since mac10 takes along time to kill, and the horde of trash continue to approach, zeds behind the front row will march right up to your face unharmed, while commando could have disposed alot more trash during that time

So if a firebug is not a good camper is he a good kiter? Zeds speed only decreases after crisp up, and since it takes along time for gorefasts to crisp, a kiting firebug would be long dead before the gorefast has crisped.
Not to mention the crawler/mac10 glitch is still not fixed.
(Yes I didn't mention other trash zeds because they arent much of a threat to a kiting firebug)

The only time that a firebug comes in handy is when you play on a custom map like tower defense. Picking out zeds from afar with mac10 and letting DoT work its magic, thats when a firebugs principal of weakening and slowing zeds would work. Remember that most camping maps aren't full of space, your most likely defending a long corridor or worse, a door.

What exactly is TW's intentions for firebugs role I do not know, but right now, its a class that doesn't help in camping situations as other perks can do its job better. Its also worthless in kiting. Maybe this will help TW rethink about the firebugs role in the game, maybe they will read this and say meh. Or maybe like alot of you out there, they just think that Firebug is well balanced.

Some suggestions to Firebugs weapons to help define his role better, right now he can't compete with commando, nor should he.

The Flamethrower
The FT does not effectively slow down specimens to give the team some breathing room, if that was its intention at all in the 1st place, lets make FT have piercing ammo that can go through 3~4 zeds, weaken its DoT and make it crisp trash like gorefast and below within 3 seconds of being ignited? If you still think its OP(no doubt many of you picky people would), than lets have it only ignite zeds after piercing the 1st zed. So front row of zeds takes the raw damage of FT while the rest merely gets ignited. Still OP you say? Fine lets cut the ammo capacity of FT than. Do remember that this would severely impair the teams view like a GL's smoke screen, I'd say its a fair trade to slow down horde at the cost of visibility but people are never happy with firebug buffs.

Incendiary Grenades
Could make it have a lasting area effect up to 5 seconds to create a wall of crisp and pain when the teams on the verge of being overrun, of course no1s happy when things just get buffed, so to make it more balanced, firebug can only carry 2 nades? Perhaps it cant be thrown and has to be set up like real incendiary grenades.

Mac10
Boy where do I start with this 1? If I suggested making it capable of decapitating trash with 1 shot than you people will be all over me saying firebugs just taking over the role of commando, so unless I want to be the most hated person on this forum I'm not going to suggest that. What I will suggest is taking down that insane recoil(for a weapon with such a weak calibre it somehow has a bigger recoil than the scar), closer to that of mp7m, come on its already got 1 of the most horrible sights in the game(2nd only to m14) and the ammo reserve isnt exactly huge. DoT really doesnt help in a camping situation does it now?

Addendum
I wonder if it was a wise idea to post such a long and detailed reply here, on the last page of a long forgotten thread. All this effort to type it up and no1s going to read it except the moderators. I could start a new thread to have every1 tell me off, or post here for no1 to read...

 

[sph34r]

I think the M14 needs a nerf, in the form of a specific scalar versus FPs. It shouldn't be as easy as it is now to solo them. If the amount of headshots required to kill an FP was increased by ~3-5 more shots, not everyone and their grandmother would be doing it.

 

[iburnstuff]

I think the M14 needs a nerf, in the form of a specific scalar versus FPs. It shouldn't be as easy as it is now to solo them. If the amount of headshots required to kill an FP was increased by ~3-5 more shots, not everyone and their grandmother would be doing it.

What difficulty have you been playing on? All m14 is good for is raging FP and ends in your own quick death, unless your playing on normal.

 

[9_6]

I think the M14 needs a nerf, in the form of a specific scalar versus FPs. It shouldn't be as easy as it is now to solo them.

 

[DDC1234]

Nerf the m14. - "Doctor a brain transplant is needed here"
iburnstuff - that is exactly the problems with the firebug. Thanks for that.
Those are the stuff that should be look at for the Firebug.

 

[outofrealman]

Nerf the m14. - "Doctor a brain transplant is needed here"
iburnstuff - that is exactly the problems with the firebug. Thanks for that.
Those are the stuff that should be look at for the Firebug.

Watch out for random theory throwing at you from FB defenders. All problems in that list can be solved by their god-like skill.

 

[DDC1234]

All problems in that list can be solved by their god-like skill.

"God like skill" - your joking right.

 

[Bill Nye The Science Spy]

I actually think that the Firebug is not underpowered. They can be hard to use on some maps but they are great on maps like doom,biotics lab, ect. where you are camping in a room with only 1 or 2 entrances in.I honestly dont see a problem with this perk and why most people think that it is underpowered. You just need to know how to play them. You shouldn't flame husks or scrakes because husks are immune to fire and if you flame a scrake then it will make it hard for the sharpshooter to shoot its head. Also you shouldn't be spamming your flamethrower either unless you really have to. I also dont see a point in stock piling flamethrowers. Ive seen people have 3 or more flamethrowers extra. If used right you really dont need extra ammo. Although it can get tougher on the higher waves or higher game modes so i think that 1 extra flamethrower can be needed but not any more then 1.

I do agree that the Support Specialist is the most Overpowered perk. I really dont like playing them because its boring to me being able to mow down almost anything with aa-12 and hunting shotgun with almost no effort.

Commando is by far the most balanced perk. I cant see how anyone can complain about them. One of my favorite classes.

I think medic should have a slight discount to all weapons maybe like 5% at levels 1-3, 10% at 4-5 and 15% at 6. But other then that i think they are fine.

I think that SharpShooters are fine for the most part i only think that they should still be able to 1 hit kill scrakes with the xbow on HoE still. Because it gets annoying when they get stunned and then its hard to get a follow up shot because of the messed up hitboxes so a 1 shot to scrakes would be good. Also if they could reduce the price of the xbow bolts by a little that would be great.

Firebug is balanced to me and very effective if used properly but it is a rather difficult class to use. One of my favorite classes.

Demo to me is balanced because they have long reloads and they are an expensive class to use and missed or blocked shots can hurt you and/or waste your ammo.And they are bad at close range. But they can dominate groups of zombies with ease and is critical for killing FPs on harder game modes. They are pretty bad with a bad team but very usefull with a good team.

Berserker to me is balanced. They are kind of bad with a team since they are melee range only and team mates can steal kills from the berserker but they excel at bigger maps such as: farm,death basin,arcade,mountain pass, ect. They are far better on there own then with the team. I dont consider them to be underpowered or overpowered though.

 

[sph34r]

What difficulty have you been playing on? All m14 is good for is raging FP and ends in your own quick death, unless your playing on normal.

You...

You're just...

My god man. You're absolutely clueless

 

[Ibin.]

What difficulty have you been playing on? All m14 is good for is raging FP and ends in your own quick death, unless your playing on normal.

.... I don't even know what to say to this. It's almost like I can see your ignorance oozing through the text on my screen. The M14 is definitely the most overpowered weapon in the game. The weapon alone is more OP than the entire support class. As Q said, you are clueless.

Go burn some more stuff and don't speak of that which you don't know.

 

[9_6]

There have been nerfs to the m14 you know. Significant ones.
More than for any other gun in the game except maybe the crossbow.

Do you want the thing to be entirely pointless?

 

[sph34r]

There have been nerfs to the m14 you know. Significant ones.
More than for any other gun in the game except maybe the crossbow.

It's irrelevant if there have been nerfs already, or if there have been more nerfs to it than any other weapon because it's still overpowered. If a weapon did 100 damage over a thereshold where it became OP and it was nerfed 50 times (with each nerf reducing its damage by 1 point), would it make a valid argument to claim it has been nerfed too many times? No, because it would still remain 50 points over the thereshold (100 - 50 = 50 btw) for being OP.

But hey, that seemed like an irrelevant extreme right? Read on:

Do you want the thing to be entirely pointless?

No, I didn't say this. In fact, not only did I not say that, I was actually extremely specific as to what degree I'd like to see the M14 nerfed. Have a look:

I think the M14 needs a nerf, in the form of a specific scalar versus FPs. It shouldn't be as easy as it is now to solo them. If the amount of headshots required to kill an FP was increased by ~3-5 more shots, not everyone and their grandmother would be doing it.

I think you haven't seen this weapon in the hands of a capable user. I don't claim to be some elitist here, but if you want to see what I mean, ask me for my steamID in your reply and either myself or |bin will be glad to show you how the M14 can solo 2 fleshpounds in a row (or kill trash more effectively than a commando).

edit: I didn't specify this anywhere: I'm referring to 6-man HoE difficulty for the FPs.

 

[horzineplumpudding]

Frankly, I would be quite unhappy if they nerfed the m14. Sure its damage output is ridiculus and it is amazingly handy, but I have fun playing with it the way it is now. However, I wouldn't be against making it much more expensive, since the sharpshooter is the richest perk at start. Even switch price tags with the AA12, that's what it is worth.

As it is now, when you die in the game, you just have to respawn as a sharpshooter and you can afford your m14 without help from teamates, that's just overkill.

 

[9_6]

But hey, that seemed like an irrelevant extreme

Overshooting nerfs... completely irrelevant indeed.
I mean after the chainsaw and now the crossbow and the pipes and the dualies and the support balance thread earlier, it is completely absurd to assume that screaming for nerfs as well as the way they are then implemented is a slippery slope because this definition over there says it's a fallacy thus it can't be true.

If a weapon did 100 damage over a thereshold where it became OP and it was nerfed 50 times (with each nerf reducing its damage by 1 point), would it make a valid argument to claim it has been nerfed too many times? No, because it would still remain 50 points over the thereshold (100 - 50 = 50 btw) for being OP.

So how do you mearure "OPness" again cause I could really use the formula.
Silly me has always assumed it to be a highly subjective thing.

I think you haven't seen this weapon in the hands of a capable user. I don't claim to be some elitist here, but if you want to see what I mean, ask me for my steamID in your reply and either myself or |bin will be glad to show you how the M14 can solo 2 fleshpounds in a row (or kill trash more effectively than a commando).

No in fact I have only seen it in the hands of dead people who didn't yet know they're dead.
I can imagine that if you're masochistic and take the time to get used to this pile of crap, you can do rather well.
But that doesn't matter cause all I'm saying is that if you might not want to rock that boat again as long as it's still able to swim.

The M14 now is nothing that ruins games.

 

[sph34r]

Overshooting nerfs... completely irrelevant indeed.
I mean after the chainsaw and now the crossbow and the pipes and the dualies and the support balance thread earlier, it is completely absurd to assume that screaming for nerfs as well as the way they are then implemented is a slippery slope because this definition over there says it's a fallacy thus it can't be true.

That was convoluted. From what I understood, you stated you didn't use a slippery slope argument. Let me repeat my previous claim to show you why you did.

A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.

That's the definition of a slippery slope argument. Let's take it step by step:

I think the M14 needs a nerf, in the form of a specific scalar versus FPs. It shouldn't be as easy as it is now to solo them. If the amount of headshots required to kill an FP was increased by ~3-5 more shots, not everyone and their grandmother would be doing it.

Here, I called for a minor nerf. There is no disputing that I called for a minor nerf here, because I stated the M14 should just have a harder time, not an impossible time, soloing FPs. I did not talk about its damage output versus any other specimen than the FP. After I said all of this, you said this:

Do you want the thing to be entirely pointless?

As you can see here, you used the word "entirely." This denotes that you're referring to every possible aspect of the M14, not just soloing FPs. This could imply one of two things - either that you believe the sole purpose of the M14 is to kill FPs in which case nerfing it versus FPs would make it useless (since it has, by this logic, no other purpose), or that you believe that giving the M14 this slight nerf will eventually lead to more nerfs, that after they accumulate, will cause the M14 to be useless. Just my proposed nerf alone will NOT make the M14 useless (the italics was the slippery slope).

So how do you mearure "OPness" again cause I could really use the formula.
Silly me has always assumed it to be a highly subjective thing.

I honestly thought it would just be obvious enough that being able to solo the game's toughest specimen in and of itself is OP. But since that hasn't been conveyed clearly enough, please understand that being able to solo the game's toughest specimen is OP.

No in fact I have only seen it in the hands of dead people who didn't yet know they're dead.
I can imagine that if you're masochistic and take the time to get used to this pile of crap, you can do rather well.
But that doesn't matter cause all I'm saying is that if you might not want to rock that boat again as long as it's still able to swim.

The M14 now is nothing that ruins games.

This is, in my opinion, your only valid point. You're stating that the M14 is too hard to get good with, to the point where nerfing it would make it too hard to use properly at all, and would thus be unfair to someone like you. I disagree, I think Killing Floor in general is laughably easy, it's incredibly slow paced and takes little skill. A slight increase in this game's pathetically low skill ceiling, if you'd allow for it, would do you more good than harm in the long run. If it would be better, then instead of nerfing the M14, TWI should nerf the game by creating a new difficulty mode where the M14 (along other things) would be weaker.

 

[9_6]

That was convoluted.

Short version:
I was given the chance to make a list with changes that would actually realistically be considered to be implemented, nerfing by "10" was suggested, people were then asking for "20" in the beta, one thing lead to another and "30" is what we ended up with.
It's a reoccurring scheme, it is why the chainsaw was utterly useless before, it is why pipes now cost a mountain of cash and why dual deagles are now as useless as never before.

And I know what the slippery slope fallacy is and how it works. Thank you.

I honestly thought it would just be obvious enough that being able to solo the game's toughest specimen in and of itself is OP. But since that hasn't been conveyed clearly enough, please understand that being able to solo the game's toughest specimen is OP.

Okay you're trying to tell that to me with a straight face?
That's a terrible, oversimplified way to measure "overpoweredness".
Someone has to be able to do it.

This is, in my opinion, your only valid point.

That it doesn't ruin games and thus isn't such a pressing issue at all? Well okay then, if that point is vali-

You're stating that the M14 is too hard to get good with, to the point where nerfing it would make it too hard to use properly at all, and would thus be unfair to someone like you.
...
TWI should nerf the game by creating a new difficulty mode where the M14 (along other things) would be weaker.

Oh.

 

[poosh]

@ sph34r (about M14 vs 2x FP):
are you playing on lower difficulties or tried this on test map? Because I don't believe that 20 headshots can be made in the row in the real HoE game. No because of player's skill, but because other zeds usually run in front and block your shots (esp. while FP is doing rage animation), but M14 has no penetration at all. Of course, you can kite FP with M14, because 1 shot doesn't rage him. But it's kind of weird...

I think M14 should have slight buff, not nerf. Increasing headshot multiplier from x2.25 to x2.30 should allow single-shot kill Husks and Sirens on 6p HoE.