The Blacklist.

  • Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

jmoak3

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 26, 2009
3
7
0
I understand the motivation of The Blacklist. It prevents people from easily leveling their perks with little to no effort. The Blacklist blocks perks in maps and mutators that allow such easy leveling, which is reasonable, but I would like to know why it blocks perk-USE. I understand that it keeps people from cheaply leveling their perks, but why would it block the perks? I love turning on clot-buster, or bloat-ed, etc, but why do I have to have no perks? What's the harm of using perks without leveling them?
If it's possible, could you great people over at Tripwire Interactive please allow perk-use in blacklisted content and mutators? However, if it's not possible, please just tell me so and why, and I'll go on my way, knowing why I can't use perks in blacklisted content, and that there is a reason behind it.
 

Yoshiro

Senior Community Manager
Staff member
Oct 10, 2005
13,575
4,165
113
There is no blacklist. A blacklist would mean all content is allowed until it is disaproved.

What there is is a whitelist, where content has to be approved first.

And no, we cannot safely allow mutators that haven't been whitelisted any access to the perk code.

If you do a search I believe Xienen has done a more detailed explanation post on this exact subject.
 

C_Gibby

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 18, 2010
7,220
2,716
0
This here guy is right.

I'm 100% YES on the de-whitelisting of the "single ZED only" mutators, but I find it disappointing that I can't go on an arena-style map against a horde of gorefasts with only a katana + berzerker perk.

I don't want to be able to level perks on them, but I still want to use them with the perks. :(
 

Entangler

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 12, 2009
474
216
0
34
Sydney, Australia
And no, we cannot safely allow mutators that haven't been whitelisted any access to the perk code.

If you do a search I believe Xienen has done a more detailed explanation post on this exact subject.
Indeed he has, but if memory serves the explanation was a bit underwhelming. If I recall, my interpretation of it strongly implied that the Steam connection code is entirely within UScript, which might've been simpler to implement at the time but doesn't sound like a sensible decision from a security perspective. I know he did say that connections to Steam stats and achievements servers can't be flagged "read-only", and in a choice between letting questionable mutators send write requests unrestricted and denying the connection altogether, the latter is obviously superior, but it begs the question of why UScript code can access the connection in the first place.

If there is any particular reason why the following is not possible to do, or for that matter has already been done but for some reason is impossible to secure, then I apologise in advance; but I would've thought the more robust solution in the long term would be to implement the Steam connection subsystem entirely in native code, providing UScript access via a very restrictive API, the native implementation of which could silently discard write requests at its own leisure without them ever reaching the connection itself. The native module would interact with the whitelist checking and other validation code (which I assume is already native) to determine whether or not to honour write requests. Meanwhile the UScript definition of its "class" would merely provide simple "read" and "write" functions, along with another function returning a Boolean to indicate whether or not the latter will actually do anything (e.g. for the interface code, so it can report a more accurate message about why perk progress won't be saved). With this strict encapsulation scheme in force, the only way for UScript code to write to the Steam connection would be through a native layer that would dishonour all write requests in non-whitelisted environments, so dodgy mutators on Bob's Whorehouse could say "give me 60 million fire damage pls" all they like, but it would never amount to anything.

If for some reason the above is not feasible, I'd be curious to know why.

EDIT: And I do realise that changing from an entirely UScript implementation to the one described above would constitute a significant amount of work, but I honestly think it'd be worth it.

EDIT 2: And by "simple read and write functions" I mean "read and write progress for X perk", not "read and write TCP streams", since the latter is obviously an implementation detail with which the UScript side needn't concern itself.
 
Last edited:

crystaldragons

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 7, 2010
163
7
0
www.trevorsstuff.webs.com
i was told that this may happen in the future if they code it properly. what they need to do is store the lvling system in 2 different places but update both of them. first: the one we use now, to be able to lvl up. that should be the only editable and readable one. however the second one could be stationary. after game has ended on system 1, all that legit information, would be sent wherever it goes, but then be written to the second system(update the info). then if perks enabled=false then it should use this perk system instead. but still not allow level up. :D i have no clue how to code for killing floor but i'd like to learn. i know how EXACTLY to make this work if i was using realbasic. realbasic and java are things i currently know how to code for. or to make it all simple. use the perk selector mut. then configure muts, set the perk lvl to your desire 0-6.
 

trilance

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 16, 2009
208
5
0
Just use the perk replacement mutator. Hopefully, TWI could polish the mutator and make it an official mutator.

As in part of the game? A fantastic idea indeed. Perk enabled? Rather redundant.
 
Last edited:

timur

FNG / Fresh Meat
This here guy is right.

I'm 100% YES on the de-whitelisting of the "single ZED only" mutators, but I find it disappointing that I can't go on an arena-style map against a horde of gorefasts with only a katana + berzerker perk.

I don't want to be able to level perks on them, but I still want to use them with the perks. :(

seconded. I miss poundamonium.:(
 

nath2009uk

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 25, 2009
1,368
174
0
England, UK
Will there ever be a way to allow perks (No leveling) with non-whitelisted maps and mutators? Why couldn't the game store the last known level of all perks into a single file and force all non-whitelisted things to use that file.
 

Olivier

Grizzled Veteran
Jan 19, 2010
3,651
1,071
113
Will there ever be a way to allow perks (No leveling) with non-whitelisted maps and mutators? Why couldn't the game store the last known level of all perks into a single file and force all non-whitelisted things to use that file.

You can already play with your perks with non-whitelisted maps Nath.
 

crystaldragons

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 7, 2010
163
7
0
www.trevorsstuff.webs.com
Will there ever be a way to allow perks (No leveling) with non-whitelisted maps and mutators? Why couldn't the game store the last known level of all perks into a single file and force all non-whitelisted things to use that file.
this is what i was trying to explain. just in general though. i proposed a solution. there needs to be 2 perk save files. one the game uses for whitelisted things. whenever THAT file is edited, that data is saved into another file named differently that non-whitelisted things would use instead.
 

timur

FNG / Fresh Meat
this is what i was trying to explain. just in general though. i proposed a solution. there needs to be 2 perk save files. one the game uses for whitelisted things. whenever THAT file is edited, that data is saved into another file named differently that non-whitelisted things would use instead.

It seems difficult, but the payoff would be nice.
 

SMIFF

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
1,811
804
0
this is what i was trying to explain. just in general though. i proposed a solution. there needs to be 2 perk save files. one the game uses for whitelisted things. whenever THAT file is edited, that data is saved into another file named differently that non-whitelisted things would use instead.

Iv thought of the exact same thing, but I assumed TWI would of already thought of it themselves and probably couldn't do it?