The best commander?

[JudgeMental]

Many threads have aired their veiws as to which was the best tank of WW2, but in my humble opinion, there is only one real candidate for best tank commander. A man who to this day is still revered by British tank regiments. Forget the politics and just base it on tactical sense and there can be only one ( hmm, I'm sure I've heard that line in a film once )
http://www.panzerace.net/

Opinions?

 

[Praetorian Historian]

Michael Wittman, Joachim Peiper and Kurt Knispel are my three favorites.

 

[Strahd]

About your sig...Leon DeGrelle rulez. Before i've read his book, i never expected that Belgium or NEtherlands had so brave soldiers.

 

[Sichartshofen]

Kurt Knispel
Otto Carius
Johannes B

 

[DingBat]

Dr Franz Bake

 

[MercyKiller]

About your sig...Leon DeGrelle rulez. Before i've read his book, i never expected that Belgium or NEtherlands had so brave soldiers.

trust me the majority of them were traitors expetially the dutch.

 

[Praetorian Historian]

trust me the majority of them were traitors expetially the dutch.

I beg your pardon? Traitors to whom, Germany? The Foreign SS were some of the fiercest fighters and placed their lives on the line just as quickly as any German soldier. It disgusts me that you would make such a blatantly false statement without any evidence to back it up.

In fact, right up the very end many of these soldiers fought with fanatical determination and died for it. Had the allies not encircled the majority of them, they would have probably even fought in Berlin to defend the Fuhrer. They were not "traitors," "monsters," or "murderers."

They were soldiers, just as equal to and brave as any American, Brit, Canadian or ally that fought in the war. Nor were they traitors to their own countries as they truly believed that the benefit of their country would come at the hands of someone like Adolf Hitler. I better end this post before I continue to feel disgusted by your blanket statement.

 

[Strahd]

Yes, he's right, i sign myself with both hands. In "Eastfront - The memoiries" written by Leon Degrelle u can really adminre those guys. They were among the fiercest german units, and their spirit was trully awesome because they were idealistic, they fought not for great germany, they fought against primitive sovie bolshevizm. BTW, they were the last soldiers of great Wehrmacht who seen Dniepr river, cause they backed off as the last units...I was reading that book with an awe.

 

[MercyKiller]

I beg your pardon? Traitors to whom, Germany? The Foreign SS were some of the fiercest fighters and placed their lives on the line just as quickly as any German soldier. It disgusts me that you would make such a blatantly false statement without any evidence to back it up.

In fact, right up the very end many of these soldiers fought with fanatical determination and died for it. Had the allies not encircled the majority of them, they would have probably even fought in Berlin to defend the Fuhrer. They were not "traitors," "monsters," or "murderers."

They were soldiers, just as equal to and brave as any American, Brit, Canadian or ally that fought in the war. Nor were they traitors to their own countries as they truly believed that the benefit of their country would come at the hands of someone like Adolf Hitler. I better end this post before I continue to feel disgusted by your blanket statement.

did i say ss or germans??? no i meant the dutch , alot of them were traitors..(not all)
like helping nazi scumbags , hand over jews, alot surrendered, or collaberated with the germans..

 

[Praetorian Historian]

did i say ss or germans??? no i meant the dutch , alot of them were traitors..(not all)
like helping nazi scumbags , hand over jews, alot surrendered, or collaberated with the germans..

Once more, you couldn't be more wrong. Like every area that was conquered by the Germans, there were people who were grateful for it and saw it not as an invasion but as liberation. It is no different if someone conquered America today, while a majority of Americans would resist, there would be a minority that "collaborated" (we call them Californians).

The Policy of Gleichschaltung ("to make equal") in the Netherlands aimed to end the pillarization of Dutch society that had been there since the 19th century. It also established the Jewish Board which made for all Jews to register in the Netherlands. Everyone in the Netherlands thought it was simply a way of keeping tabs on the Jews who were, at the time, the scapegoats for the loss of World War I, the European Depressions and every other societal ill including crime.

When the Jews were rounded up, nobody in the Netherlands resisted because to resist would have been asinine. As far as they knew, the rumors of concentration camps were just that, rumors. Second, it was not them but the Jews who were being rounded up, why risk dying for someone else? Third and most importantly, it looked like the Germans had won and that their victory was solidified by 1943. Any resistance would have been futile.

In fact, the Dutch did what they could, they organized the February Strike across the Netherlands in an attempt to end the deportation of Jews. Though the strikes didn't stop the deportations, it instead made Hitler distrust the Dutch and he began to make more arrests in the Netherlands using the Gestapo and began to persecute anyone who spoke against Nazi Occupation more strictly.

All of this and I have not yet even touched up the Dutch Resistance Movement. Largely communists, they protected Jews in their own homes at great risk to their own lives and the lives of their families. The Dutch Resistance also killed high ranking officials in the SS while their own people suffered with mass executions in retaliation.

To say that "a lot of them were traitors" is baseless and false. You should be ashamed of yourself for presenting fallacy as fact.

 

[DingBat]

did i say ss or germans??? no i meant the dutch , alot of them were traitors..(not all)
like helping nazi scumbags , hand over jews, alot surrendered, or collaberated with the germans..

They might be traitors, I don't know, but as for handing over jews....

I'd recommend checking out Yad Vashem or "The Righteous Among Nations". This is a jewish organization dedicated to celebrating the non-jews who sheltered and helped jews during the Holocaust.

If you look at the statistics, the Dutch have the second highest number of Righteous, after the Polish. And on a per capita basis, the Dutch are far and away the most Righteous of nations.

 

[Piron]

Ok, lets get some facts straight in here:

- Len Degrelle, was a Walloon, thats the french speaking part of Belgium. He was not dutch, he didnt even talk dutch.
- In juli 1941 Degrelle, as leader of Rex, the walloon fascist party, asked to join the Waffen SS, but it was refused by Hitler personally.
- Only after chances changed at the eastern front, Degrelle and his L

 

[Praetorian Historian]

Ok, lets get some facts straight in here:

- Len Degrelle, was a Walloon, thats the french speaking part of Belgium. He was not dutch, he didnt even talk dutch.
- In juli 1941 Degrelle, as leader of Rex, the walloon fascist party, asked to join the Waffen SS, but it was refused by Hitler personally.
- Only after chances changed at the eastern front, Degrelle and his L

 

[Piron]

The problem is probably, that non belgians see people like Degrelle like war veterans, fighting in a 'clean' and 'open' war against the Russians. But they tend to forget that Belgium during and right after the second world war was involved in a sort of 'dirty' civil war of collaboration, resistance, repression,... that tore whole families, communities,... apart. Even to this day this debate is a topic to be dealt with with lots of care in both politics and on the streets. So to lots of Belgians, Degrelle does not stand for a glorious soldier, but a collaborator who is direct or indirect responsible for killing hunderds, if not thousands of compatriots.

 

[Praetorian Historian]

The problem is probably, that non belgians see people like Degrelle like war veterans, fighting in a 'clean' and 'open' war against the Russians. But they tend to forget that Belgium during and right after the second world war was involved in a sort of 'dirty' civil war of collaboration, resistance, repression,... that tore whole families, communities,... apart. Even to this day this debate is a topic to be dealt with with lots of care in both politics and on the streets. So to lots of Belgians, Degrelle does not stand for a glorious soldier, but a collaborator who is direct or indirect responsible for killing hunderds, if not thousands of compatriots.

The victor is the one who writes history. Had it been the English that had defeated America in the American Revolution, we'd be discussing how George Washington was a traitor no different than Guy Fawkes. Instead, he is regarded as a hero because he stood up for what he believed in and won.

When you lose, you are the "bastard of the war" and the guilty one. When you win, you are the hero and saint. Only later can historians really judge who was a saint and who was a sinner.

 

[Piron]

Only the 'winner', at least from our western european point of view, (the eastern european viewpoint can be debatable) did not stand for a totalitarian regime suppressing any opposition with extreme violence and organizing a massmurder of various ethnical minorities and other 'untermenschen'.
I'm sorry Praetorian, but nobody on this whole forum will ever be able to convince me of the 'just cause' nazi germany and their collaborators were fighting for.
Every week I pass a few times past a sign that says 'Breendonk' (more info: http://www.breendonk.be/), and in whole Breendonk, not a single jew or gypsie was inprisoned, only Belgian compatriots who didnt agree with people like Degrelle.

 

[Praetorian Historian]

Only the 'winner', at least from our western european point of view, (the eastern european viewpoint can be debatable) did not stand for a totalitarian regime suppressing any opposition with extreme violence and organizing a massmurder of various ethnical minorities and other 'untermenschen'.
I'm sorry Praetorian, but nobody on this whole forum will ever be able to convince me of the 'just cause' nazi germany and their collaborators were fighting for.
Every week I pass a few times past a sign that says 'Breendonk' (more info: http://www.breendonk.be/), and in whole Breendonk, not a single jew or gypsie was inprisoned, only Belgian compatriots who didnt agree with people like Degrelle.

I hardly ever find pity for those imprisoned under Rexism as they tended to be Communists. As you said, Rexists didn't bother with gypsies and Jews because they had no reason to be sadistic against them. Communists, on the other hand, were killing Belgians fighting on the Eastern front and were the majority of the "resistance." In my opinion, there is no political ideology more deadly than Communism and I have some very strong figures to back that up. (Read "Death by Government" by R. J. Rummel) Fascism can be applied if applied in the correct doses. That is why I am a strong advocate of Rexism, Constitutional Monarchies and Corporatism.

 

[Piron]

Stating that Rexism was the way Belgium was ruled is largely overrating the role Rex and other organisations like De Vlag,... played. They were merely puppets in the hands of the German occupation.

Communism as a political theory is a very valuable system. But as with most utopian theories in practice these systems are always used and abused by the ruling classes. Fascism, can be non racist, like the Italian fascism, on the contrary, the german fascism, nazism, was based and founded on racial discrimination an suppression. No '-ism' will ever be perfect, communism, fascisme, imperialism,... even democracy (oops thats not even an '-ism') have their flaws.

But stating that fascism is an ok system, I would call that a bit naive and even dangerous. I dont know what country you're from, but it seems it never witnessed a fascist government and what it does to people.

 

[Jack]

Is it just me or is no one bringing up the idea of patriotism?



Fighting well for a foreign power is fine...however fighting for a foreign power that is invading your country is something else!


I frankly don't understand what is so enthralling about someone who turned against his own countrymen, especially following something as heinous as Nazism. What is honorable or compelling about that? I mean if you were a Nazi yourself I suppose it would sound appealing...but otherwise wtf?

 

[Praetorian Historian]

Stating that Rexism was the way Belgium was ruled is largely overrating the role Rex and other organisations like De Vlag,... played. They were merely puppets in the hands of the German occupation.

O Rly? Not quite. Rexism played into what the Germans wanted but were they true puppets? Not at all. The Rexists were actually adamant about getting what they wanted and Hitler caved into it almost every time because he liked Degrelle that much. In the end, had Hitler one, Belgium would have been apart of the Greater Germany but in a provincial status where the Rexists could still be in control.

Communism as a political theory is a very valuable system.

Tell that to the 56 million people killed at the hands of Soviet genocide.

But as with most utopian theories in practice these systems are always used and abused by the ruling classes. Fascism, can be non racist, like the Italian fascism, on the contrary, the german fascism, nazism, was based and founded on racial discrimination an suppression. No '-ism' will ever be perfect, communism, fascisme, imperialism,... even democracy (oops thats not even an '-ism') have their flaws.

Every government is a utopian idea put into practice with a dystopian society. You're right though that Nazism was primarily motivated by the ideals of race and being the ubermensche to the untermensche but I do not consider Nazism to be Fascism at all. If anything, it was a cult of personality with ideas from Communism and Fascism. Fascism gets a bad wrap because of the early 20th century and Hitler but what people don't realize is that Benito Mussolini was in power and leading successfully for some 20-odd years prior to Hitler. He was the first to give women the vote in Europe and he pushed across labor reforms that were necessary but not overly zealous.

But stating that fascism is an ok system, I would call that a bit naive and even dangerous. I dont know what country you're from, but it seems it never witnessed a fascist government and what it does to people.

America has never had a totalitarian government and the closest we ever came to it was during World War II with F.D.R. and his practically limitless terms of office that only ended with his death. But that is the thing, America would never function with a fascist government. We have become ingrained with our freedoms and this "politically correct" knowledge that all governments outside of democracy are evil. But for the rest of the world where democracy hasn't turned into a liberal bureaucracy as it has in America, true fascism could work.

Is it just me or is no one bringing up the idea of patriotism? Fighting well for a foreign power is fine...however fighting for a foreign power that is invading your country is something else!

So, let's imagine for a second that Country-A has become split 50% Communists and 25% Republicans and 25% Rexist. Its government is in turmoil and can never agree on anything and our economy is in the greatest depression since our founding. Country-B on the other hand is 90% Fascist, has a stable government, left the depression early and is thriving.

Country-B invades Country-A. Without regard to whether or not Country-B's invasion is jus ad bellum, what, hypothetically, do you have to be patriotic about in Country-A if your government can't get itself together, your people are starving and there is hope on the horizon with becoming apart of Country-B? At least in the future you can fight for your annexation and liberation if you feel the sudden spur of nationalism.

This of course, is truly hypothetical as a TRUE fascist nation practices isolationism and does not invade other countries.

I frankly don't understand what is so enthralling about someone who turned against his own countrymen, especially following something as heinous as Nazism. What is honorable or compelling about that? I mean if you were a Nazi yourself I suppose it would sound appealing...but otherwise wtf?

Leon Degrelle never turned his back on his countrymen. He did what he believed was best for Belgium and, according to the amount of Belgians that enlisted, they actually agreed with him. He fought on the Eastern and Western fronts with distinction, never surrendered (died in 1993 still fighting through his books) and lived an enviable life. You are so easy to dismiss Leon Degrelle as just another "lunatic fascist" in history but you forget that he was a HIGHLY educated man who was raised in a loving household and loyal to King Leopold III. Rexism was his dream and it was fascism with Catholic morals. To me, there is no government I'd like to live under and fight for more than one with Catholic morals.