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Terrible Tragedy In Norway

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#85
NoxNoctum said:
Repression IS counterproductive.

You can't use one nutjob in Norway to justify say... the United States' barbaric prison system or bash the system highlighted in that video.

You throw some teenage MJ dealer into prison here he comes out a hardened criminal... if he survives that is.

Makes sense to me that if you threw some gangster into one of those Norway "luxury" prisons he'd come out a better person.

I mean did you hear what it said??... only 10% of the people imprisoned there return to crime after they get out. It's over 50% in the US. (higher than that according to some sources)
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You sure it's prisons causing the return to crime and not the sheer amount of gang culture that surrounds them? It's not as if lightening sentences or making the environment more comfortable would fix that.

The US is a starkly different environment in general compared to Norway. If someone is gonna take the time in prison to change themselves then they will. In the US there are just so many people who fall back on a criminal lifestyle for a laundry list of personal reasons. All of which are probably completely unrelated to the "barbaric" condition of the US prison system.
 
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#86
I completely disagree. You throw someone into horrific conditions they're gonna come out horrible. You throw them into good conditions the opposite is more likely. Definitely not guaranteed, some people are screwed up regardless, but still. Treating people like animals does not help. Do you think getting anally raped would be likely to improve one's behavior?

If you took an American who was surrounded by gang culture, poverty and violence his entire life and threw him into one of those Norwegian prisons for a couple years he would not come out the same...

But ya the "gang culture" is an obviously huge problem here.

The Drug War is the real bogey man that should be strung up with piano wire though...

Legalized drugs, legalized prostitution, legalized gambling = organized crime takes a huge hit.

Also, racists would need to die off, race is a huge factor in gang violence. Even between immigrants there's infighting, it's ridiculous. I remember when I lived in San Jose a dude was knifed to death literally 20 feet from my friend's house because he was in a first generation Mexican gang and the second generation Mexican gang took him out.
 
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#87
NoxNoctum said:
Treating people like animals does not help. Do you think getting anally raped would be likely to improve one's behavior?
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I don't think everyone in prison gets raped... Save a handful of really bad cases, a lot of prisons treat their inmates pretty well considering. No one is getting starved or beaten like animals.

NoxNoctum said:
If you took an American who was surrounded by gang culture, poverty and violence his entire life and threw him into one of those Norwegian prisons for a couple years he would not come out the same...
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Sure, he would probably come out laughing and tell his friends to move to Norway. It's just a totally different culture and I doubt it could ever work in the states.


All this aside, I think the prisons in Europe that focus on rehabilitation are good for most cases. But when you have extreme examples of human filth like the guy who killed all those kids, such things should be completely out of the question. You don't just let people like that back into society after 20 years or so, no matter how much you think you've rehabilitated them.
 
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#88
Reise...even IF that guy gets out of prision and let it be in 20 years..he will be murdered in no time...thats how karma works. But useually..people that commit such horrendious crimes are not affrait of dying anyhow. So whould his dead through the hand of someone who lost a loved one in that massacre be a fair punishment ? Whouldent that proove his "point" ? Things like that are the philosophical challenges to the societys we are living in. ( besides cheap goods, slave labour to produce them, wellfare, racial issues, dead of democrecy...survailance state ect ect ect...)
 
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#91
Roland777 said:
IMHO.

ABB signifies the most despicable beyond-salvation scum any extremist ideology possibly has to offer. Worse yet, he's potential future leverage for the alleged militant right-wing extremists - as such, I wouldn't be averse to applying capital punishment on him to avoid that.
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yeah; there's no way he's being rehabilitated and he has dashed any hopes of being anything other than a menace to society, so I don't see much point in keeping him alive on government funds. That's just following that line of logic, of course, but I still mantain that I don't see much point in keeping him alive. Which is why I always vote to minimize capital punishment, not abolish it :eek:
 
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#92
NoxNoctum said:
How the hell does gunning down 90+ children advance the far right wing extremist agenda?
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He was apparently targeting socialists that support Cultural Marxism, which is a catch-all term for anyone opposed to racism, classism, sex and gender discrimination, etc. etc.. Or at least that was the excuse he put in writing. It's strange, because if he wanted to kick off a revolution or something and get tons of followers for his Templar group, you'd expect him to attack the Muslims themselves and not their "enablers" or whatever. I'd hate to even try to put a positive spin on this, but he's basically killed his movement before it even gained its first follower.
 
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#94
Reise said:
All this aside, I think the prisons in Europe that focus on rehabilitation are good for most cases. But when you have extreme examples of human filth like the guy who killed all those kids, such things should be completely out of the question. You don't just let people like that back into society after 20 years or so, no matter how much you think you've rehabilitated them.
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Which is precisely why he won't be let back out, in Norway, same as Denmark, we have a system called "Forvaring" for exactly this reason, it allows for life-time imprisonment of people who are deemed to dangerous to be let lose.

And there's no way they won't put this guy in Forvaring, he's exactly the kind of person the system was created for, and nobody wants to see this Psycho back on the streets..
 
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#95
Bluehawk said:
He was apparently targeting socialists that support Cultural Marxism, which is a catch-all term for anyone opposed to racism, classism, sex and gender discrimination, etc. etc.. Or at least that was the excuse he put in writing. It's strange, because if he wanted to kick off a revolution or something and get tons of followers for his Templar group, you'd expect him to attack the Muslims themselves and not their "enablers" or whatever. I'd hate to even try to put a positive spin on this, but he's basically killed his movement before it even gained its first follower.
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It already has followers, read the EDL, there's also a lot of dsigusting commentary from conservatives online along the lines of 'what he did was terrible yes, but he did have a point...'.

It really pisses me off, especially when I see the same opinion this guy has towards immigration, muslims and multicuturalism on display in my own country. People need to wake up and realise that fascism is where these attitudes lead, simple as that.
 
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#96
Bluehawk said:
It's strange, because if he wanted to kick off a revolution or something and get tons of followers for his Templar group, you'd expect him to attack the Muslims themselves and not their "enablers" or whatever.....
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well it's hard to presume any rational with someone also prepared to kill so coldly and callously.....but what is apparent in many ppl who are anti immigration/integration is that they are more angry with their 'own kind'- be they politicians or indigenous peoples - who support/allow it, (who they see as selling out their country) than the actual foreigners themselves.
 
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#97
Reddog said:
It already has followers, read the EDL, there's also a lot of dsigusting commentary from conservatives online along the lines of 'what he did was terrible yes, but he did have a point...'.

It really pisses me off, especially when I see the same opinion this guy has towards immigration, muslims and multicuturalism on display in my own country. People need to wake up and realise that fascism is where these attitudes lead, simple as that.
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The fact that ABB had the same ideas does only same something about him, not about the ideas themselves.

The nazi's used evolution in a bad way (ari
 
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#98
You can't just call him a nutcase and leave it at that. There's a growing nazi movement in scandinavia, probably even more extreme than him. They teach their members how to shoot(to "protect themselves from muslim criminals") and if you listen to their music or read on their forums.. well, let's say this tragedy in Norway pales in comparison to the stuff they want to do. They have no sympathy, no respect for life at all.

Writing him off as a lone nutcase is the most dangerous thing we can do right now.
 
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#99
^The problem is that valid concerns and nuanced debate are lost when you point at extremes. Do I condone gunning down people of an opposing political view? Absolutely not. However, that doesn't change the fact that there is a very real problem with integration in scandinavian countries, of which a whole lot of the blame lies on the governments which have been much too lax with setting a standard to which people have to adapt.

The reason why SD (Swedish far right party) got government-mandates was that they were the only party pushing the immigration-debate, whereas every single other party was preoccupied with shunning them, or pretending that the problem didn't exist. I would most probably never vote for SD, but the questions they raise are valid.

That being said, ABB is comically ridiculous when he rallies on about cultural marxism, demands of regal abdication, his alleged mental fortitude and pompous rhetoric, and there is no fruitful debate to be found in any of his ideological ramblings, IMHO.
 
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#100
tofupunk said:
You can't just call him a nutcase and leave it at that. There's a growing nazi movement in scandinavia, probably even more extreme than him. They teach their members how to shoot(to "protect themselves from muslim criminals") and if you listen to their music or read on their forums.. well, let's say this tragedy in Norway pales in comparison to the stuff they want to do. They have no sympathy, no respect for life at all.

Writing him off as a lone nutcase is the most dangerous thing we can do right now.
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Although I think writing him off as a nutcase is the only effective way of dealing with this. A crusader gets more support than a crazy in an asylum.

But the focus of my story is that the politicians see political arguments in this tragedy ("extreme right-wing kills people, whole right-wing is wrong and should refrain from outing their opinions!"), when these arguments are based on nothing but a nutcase with a gun.
In that sense I stated he was just a nutcase and people read too much into his ideas.
 
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