RO2 Team Stack

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Spetz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 25, 2012
246
2
0
Travelling
there is no lack of balance on the TWI maps,

Sorry, but that is just wrong.

Commissar's House?

Red October Factory?

These maps are just terribly thought out to make it almost impossible for the attacking team and none of the obvious things to improve them has been done.

I once participated in an Allies campaign where the Axis team had all the territories and chose to attack the Allies on Red October Factory. Needless to say, they didn't manage to win and only managed to get as far as attacking C after 25 minutes! This was against a team they easily had dominated on all the other maps (because of Axis team stack). It can be concluded on this evidence alone that ROF is clearly fundamentally flawed, never mind my numerous hours on this map as attacking or defending.

I would also argue that the maps in RO2 are generally Axis biased. I have been over this before, but basically any map where Axis attack is usually much easier than maps where Allies attack.

Anyone who doubts consistent Axis stacking need only play campaign to see that Axis nearly always win.
 

Sensemann

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 10, 2009
1,147
269
0
Shanghai, China
It's no secret that the Red Orchestra series has always been polluted by a huge group of, let's call them, Nazi-stuff fanboys. They like the guns, tanks, uniforms etc. That's fine. Everybody is allowed to go retarded and become a jerk in public.

Commissar's House, Red October Factory and Apartments are perfect examples on how to bias a map towards one team. Apparently, it's the Axis team. None of these 3 maps requires balanced teams. It's enough if the Axis team has 5 capable guys that know what to do and can convince another 5 guys to help them out on blocking choke points or calling in Artillery at the right time.

For a long time, I played defenders only, because my favorit class is the machinegunner and I simply loved defending, gun blazing, reaching the point where you are short of money, while enemy waves are coming. I didn't care which side I played on. Especially since from lvl 50 on, you have enemy loadouts (or was that earlier?).

However, there is nothing more satisfying to win Commissar's or Red October Factory as a Russian, but that hardly ever happened for a long time. I have had periods of weeks, where the Russians didn't win Commissar's (actually didn't even capture the first 3 objectives). Or where lockdown won the Axis Red October Factory on the first objective.

Interesting to see was that when I was able to join games with several of my former clanmates, we always played the "harder" side in order to win the map for the underdog. What usually happened was that after 3-4 wins in a row with the tougher side, certain Axis-only players sudenly joined the Allied team because they were sick of losing. I am calling that biased sportsmanship, lol.

Anyways, just to clarify this, I am not judging on anybody that posted on this thread. I have played with a lot of you guys here and don't hold anything against anybody. But I suggest everybody to reflect on oneself if his behaviour is not also part of the problem of why this game is losing so many newcomers.

It basically has lost me for several other reasons as well, but one-sighted (and one-sided) players is a major reason for this.

Winning Red October factory through lockdown on the first cap was a good game? Might as well play solitaire for the kick. There is no need for skill in this.
 

salti

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 6, 2006
254
19
0
Very good post ...Sensemann....there some very elequent people in our community.
I was always and still am one that normaly klicks the lucky dip button as to which team there'll join , but for the last period of the game have also felt there is only one team they can join on the russian front (RS doesnt matter so much) and that is the russian team.
Playing campaign mostly the German side has felt the affects of this with such players as

General Sir Athony Meltchett , Perky , Granat , Major , Gefreiter Getsome , Cpt Morgen , Eclipse , The Lord Flasheart , True Born Huster , Evider , (sBc)skate , Cyberante2 , Chromalism , buzzmcclune , Buster friendly , Boonie , (dOb)Uvpurple , Yassin , (ziomax)90 , Smoky Toad , Erkin , Edward Hay , devon

thats what this game does....it was never easy , my jump from the normal shooters to this one was a pleasant schock...to some new players coming now there'll either see the pulse...the challange or they wont

and when the german side find themselves up against the players above plus probably some that iv'e forgotten , there'll feel the heat as they have done so lately




 

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Giuliano

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 6, 2011
727
16
0
29
Thats another thing, on maps like Commissars House and Red October factory the Russians need a very coordinated team to win because of how the capzones work.

In Commissars house for instance, A and B shouldn't be recappable. I don't know how many time I've seen the Russians take these two capzones just to have them taken again within a minute or two. Its boring for me as an Axis player, I can't imagine how annoying it must be for the Allies. The same should really apply to Bridges too; once A and B are capped, the Axis team shouldn't be able to retake them.

Most of the maps are pretty balanced, but there are a few which are so easy for the Axis team that it just isn't fun...

I'm willing to play Allies from now on until the new guys step up their game, learn the maps and communicate a little better. I know I'll be on the verge of ragequitting a few maps in, but I'll try.
 

Spetz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 25, 2012
246
2
0
Travelling
Very good post Sensemann - agreed 100%. You have a good attitude. I want to highlight one of your points in particular:

But I suggest everybody to reflect on oneself if his behaviour is not also part of the problem of why this game is losing so many newcomers.

You have absolutely hit the nail on the head here.

Imagine being a new player and joining your first game of RO2 on ROF or Commissar's. Naturally, you have to join Allies because Axis have more players! Now you proceed to be mown down repeatedly for 25 minutes (if you last that long before ragequitting) and your team makes zero progress on the map or A and B are repeatedly captured and then recaptured.

What do you think your opinion of RO2 would be like after that one game? Would you be likely to play it again?

The answers are obvious: bad and no. That's one potential new player lost right there.

Therefore, improving map balance is absolutely required to retain new players. The community can help by also not stacking Axis so frickin' much!

In Commissars house for instance, A and B shouldn't be recappable. I don't know how many time I've seen the Russians take these two capzones just to have them taken again within a minute or two. Its boring for me as an Axis player, I can't imagine how annoying it must be for the Allies. The same should really apply to Bridges too; once A and B are capped, the Axis team shouldn't be able to retake them.

Most of the maps are pretty balanced, but there are a few which are so easy for the Axis team that it just isn't fun...

I'm willing to play Allies from now on until the new guys step up their game, learn the maps and communicate a little better. I know I'll be on the verge of ragequitting a few maps in, but I'll try.

Making all objectives impossible for the Axis to recap on Commissar's and ROF is just such a frickin' obvious method of improving map balance that I'm shocked it hasn't been done yet by TWI.

This thread has succeeded if it has made one Axis-only player willing to play as Allies - good on you mate. You'll almost have a completely different RO2 experience now.
 

IncubusDragon

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 30, 2013
98
0
0
London, United Kingdom
Very good post Sensemann - agreed 100%. You have a good attitude. I want to highlight one of your points in particular:



You have absolutely hit the nail on the head here.

Imagine being a new player and joining your first game of RO2 on ROF or Commissar's. Naturally, you have to join Allies because Axis have more players! Now you proceed to be mown down repeatedly for 25 minutes (if you last that long before ragequitting) and your team makes zero progress on the map or A and B are repeatedly captured and then recaptured.

What do you think your opinion of RO2 would be like after that one game? Would you be likely to play it again?

The answers are obvious: bad and no. That's one potential new player lost right there.
Add to that the reaction they'll also often get from their own side if they accidentally TK someone or burn up reinforcements by getting killed trying to storm an objective (usually by vets that are sitting back camping instead of hitting the cap zone).
People rarely play games that make them feel miserable.

I never really played RO2 GOTY when I got it (played more in SP than MP - less than 10 hours if i remember right of back then) because I couldn't be bothered with the grief and hassle of folk giving verbal for not having magical instant veteran skills.

But my attitude has been totally different since starting again with RS (and now playing RO2 servers more than RS)... I now realise that I've got nothing to prove, nobody to impress, just have fun kicking butt (my RO2 rifleman just turned Hero yesterday, so yes, I'm playing plenty and having lots of fun without the need to join the stackers)... and generally speaking, I've also found there's a higher probablity of complaints & grief from team stackers than the players that auto-join and/or even up the teams (obviously not always so, but that's been my general experience so far).
 

CocaineInMyBrain

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 8, 2011
1,131
40
0
It's no secret that the Red Orchestra series has always been polluted by a huge group of, let's call them, Nazi-stuff fanboys. They like the guns, tanks, uniforms etc. That's fine. Everybody is allowed to go retarded and become a jerk in public.

Commissar's House, Red October Factory and Apartments are perfect examples on how to bias a map towards one team. Apparently, it's the Axis team. None of these 3 maps requires balanced teams. It's enough if the Axis team has 5 capable guys that know what to do and can convince another 5 guys to help them out on blocking choke points or calling in Artillery at the right time.

For a long time, I played defenders only, because my favorit class is the machinegunner and I simply loved defending, gun blazing, reaching the point where you are short of money, while enemy waves are coming. I didn't care which side I played on. Especially since from lvl 50 on, you have enemy loadouts (or was that earlier?).

However, there is nothing more satisfying to win Commissar's or Red October Factory as a Russian, but that hardly ever happened for a long time. I have had periods of weeks, where the Russians didn't win Commissar's (actually didn't even capture the first 3 objectives). Or where lockdown won the Axis Red October Factory on the first objective.

Interesting to see was that when I was able to join games with several of my former clanmates, we always played the "harder" side in order to win the map for the underdog. What usually happened was that after 3-4 wins in a row with the tougher side, certain Axis-only players sudenly joined the Allied team because they were sick of losing. I am calling that biased sportsmanship, lol.

Anyways, just to clarify this, I am not judging on anybody that posted on this thread. I have played with a lot of you guys here and don't hold anything against anybody. But I suggest everybody to reflect on oneself if his behaviour is not also part of the problem of why this game is losing so many newcomers.

It basically has lost me for several other reasons as well, but one-sighted (and one-sided) players is a major reason for this.

Winning Red October factory through lockdown on the first cap was a good game? Might as well play solitaire for the kick. There is no need for skill in this.

This happens pretty much on all popular pub servers on any maps. People don't like losing, especially in this game where it normally involves dying many many frustrating deaths repeatedly - so they stack whatever team is winning. Thankfully the steam roll tends to shift every few rounds.
 

>F|R< Sarcinelli

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 6, 2007
846
44
0
35
ES - Brasil
It has been hell playing Russian on Commissars and Rakowice lately, we can barely leave the first spawn area most of the time due to spawn camping. To me something is wrong when the defender team is always attacking and that is a viable tactic...
 

Kowalczyk

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 9, 2011
484
25
0
Thats another thing, on maps like Commissars House and Red October factory the Russians need a very coordinated team to win because of how the capzones work.

In Commissars house for instance, A and B shouldn't be recappable. I don't know how many time I've seen the Russians take these two capzones just to have them taken again within a minute or two. Its boring for me as an Axis player, I can't imagine how annoying it must be for the Allies. The same should really apply to Bridges too; once A and B are capped, the Axis team shouldn't be able to retake them.

Most of the maps are pretty balanced, but there are a few which are so easy for the Axis team that it just isn't fun...

I'm willing to play Allies from now on until the new guys step up their game, learn the maps and communicate a little better. I know I'll be on the verge of ragequitting a few maps in, but I'll try.

And there you have it, in your short time as the other team you see the problems Allies have.

Add to that the times the TL or SLs leave and we are left without one for some time before anybody notices, add to this the times Axis fills up so fast the only option is to go Allies, add to this capping a point and then trying the other and having to defend the first again, add to this the noobs who take SL and TL for the gun and have no idea ... etc etc.

I am glad this thread persuaded you to try allies for a while, because its quite a vicious circle that can get created - axis has more communication and focus, attract more players, make the team stronger, end up with a rollercoaster boring match.

If we just try to spread this over two teams, it may turn out that we get more rewards for it by a more interesting game (and if not, we always got lockdown to wait for lol)
 

Kowalczyk

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 9, 2011
484
25
0
Had to leave the server I usually play on earlier because it's bad enough the 'skill stack' but when it's an actual extra men stack it really makes me angry, how can you possibly join axis when Allies are 5 men down? This went on for 5 minutes, where players from allies would leave and new players would half join axis and half join allies, meaning allies (who were attacking) were always 4-5 men down. No wonder we werent taking even the first cap.

Rage quit.
 

=GG= Mr Moe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 16, 2006
9,794
890
0
55
Newton, NJ
Still curious as to the servers where teams are stacking like this. It can lead to a perceived map imbalance when its really not.
 

ndlksandklasnda

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 31, 2013
64
0
0
quoting myself since apparently i was under "trial period" which buried the post under previous page if i understand it correctly. if not i apologize for posting this wall of text twice.

team stacking is problem in pretty much all team games. more from people preferring one side or map imbalance (which further deepens the problem but isn't the main issue), it stems from actual players.

let's break them down into 3 groups to understand a bit more what causes stacking in games like RO2 (but it applies to any MP game with large teams):

the average majority: most of the players you meet ingame belong here. they vary in skill a lot, from complete beginners that don't know what they should be doing, useless players that sit on spawn trying to snipe people with rifles (as rifleman being the better case scenario), to decent players that might not kill a lot, but they will try to get in the cap zones, resupply mgs and generally be helpful. they might even prefer one faction over another to the point when they will join one side exclusively. so what all these actually quite different players have all in common you ask? despite most of the server is them, they themselves don't cause any imbalance or stacking, and while saying they don't matter at all in that regard would be an overstatement (it would be possible to have one team full of monkeys and other one of above average players, the chance of that in normal games is basically zero), it's pretty close and regardless of their individual quality, most important thing is that they just are there.

so now that we know that despite having as much as ~64 players on the server, and majority not being relevant to stacking, who is then? the 2 other groups.

game makers, game changers, "heroes" - however you want to call them, one thing that applies to all of them is they are very good at the game. they will most often have high honor and/or be heroes ingame and they will regularly be on top of the scoreboards. however, it doesn't work the other way around and every player that does this isn't necessarily this kind of player. so what's the difference between very good players and "game makers"? game makers are able to put so much pressure on enemy team alone that there are able to single-handedly turn the tide of the battle, not necessarily because they are able to play 1v32, but because they play so well and efficient that they, just like the ingame heroes, increase the morale of the team and suddenly, the "average majority" becomes "above average majority" and you have a cause of imbalance. however, since you sometimes have these people on each teams, or since such player can join the losing team for the sake of challenge, it often balances out, or rather, it would balance out if there wasn't the third group:

actual stackers, or "mud": these are the players that actively join the winning team, either because they just want to win for the sake of winning or having good w/l ratio (doesn't matter nobody else will ever see it), or worse, they don't like being stomped so they'll switch sides when losing, since it's more fun steamrolling than being steamrolled right? there are 2 things that make the matters even worse, and thus are the result which make the game not slightly imbalanced, but complete domination of one side by the "stacked" side. first is, logically people leaving the weak side and joining the stronger side cannot lead to anything else than even weaker losing side and even stronger winning side. the most important issue however, is that these stackers are often pretty good players that would seemingly appear as if they belong to the group above (they'll have good scores, lots of kills and high rank). the big difference is though that their performance will be heavily affected by the overall strength of the team, which is why they'll look like amazing players in stacked teams, but they won't change much in losing team (hence they'll usually switch sides afterwards), while the actual "heroes" will still do really well despite playing against a lot stronger team, which of course doesn't really matter in the end when everyone else who is decent changes sides.

and that's the problem in a nutshell, when otherwise good players find losing boring and instead of accepting the challenge, they switch to the winning side causing complete steamroll. when you add poorly designed maps to the mix and 1 side generally preferred by some players for whatever reasons, it just makes everything even worse. fortunately campaign mode slightly balances this out by having the winning team attack, but even that isn't often enough. and having all these nice stats in menu that are completely irrelevant, but motivate people to have good stats rather than bad ones doesn't help, since now, every game you ever lost is tracked (again, doesn't matter nobody else will see it, it's still right up there for you), so might as well switch teams before the match ends. nobody wants to look at stats and see he sucks.
 

Lolz0r

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 9, 2012
72
4
0
I find it nice that he, despite his preference, plays allies, since that is what is required right now.:)
 

Gftr. Getsome

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 1, 2012
35
0
0
Yep, I'll just add that if you don't go where the challenge is then what's the point? Enjoy winning? That's all well and good but it's just a massive ego-jerk off as far as I'm concerned. This is certainly the case in a lot of English speaking EU servers that I frequent.

I personally enjoy playing Russians a hell of a lot more; fresh people means new attitudes and tactics are developing in a community that seems pretty stagnant if you only ever play Axis. Play Axis on certain servers and you hear the same old voices saying the same old things... over the last few months playing exclusively allies I've met tonnes of willing new recruits that want to make a difference to the game. Sure the influx of new players can be annoying for some vets (apart from those German MG teams who love the steam sales), but it's surprising how fast people learn if you're patient with them.

A winning team rarely changes whereas the underdog has to constantly fight for each victory. If the win is easy, it's empty and worthless as far as I'm concerned. We play Red Orchestra because we enjoy the challenge - so why settle for the default option? Feeling like you've achieved something was what kept me with Ostfront from that hard earned first kill... now, as Salti has mentioned, we get the chance to achieve something by showing up the 'comfortable' playerbase. If this sounds like your bag, backs to the Volga and Mosin to the enemy ;).
 

Giuliano

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 6, 2011
727
16
0
29
Decided to play Allied all day today, along with the rest of the regulars on the 2.FJg server :p

Suffice it to say, things didn't go so well for the Axis team. There needs to an equal amount of regulars on both teams otherwise its just completely one sided.



From now on, I'll pick the side with the least players.
 
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Sensemann

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 10, 2009
1,147
269
0
Shanghai, China
Still curious as to the servers where teams are stacking like this. It can lead to a perceived map imbalance when its really not.

Well, iirc, you are a regular on a server where Axis-stacking is obnoxious. I know that you are playing both sides so consider yourself not targeted with this.

The problem of Axis-stacking has a long tradition: http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=86368

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=86709

Just two out of several older threads you can find.
 
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tomme25

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
150
42
0
Sweden
www.youtube.com
The new campaign mode is a great addition for RO2. So when I play I usually play on servers that have that mode. But teamstacking is ruining the experience, and as most of you probably know, Germany wins 90% of the time.

Teamstacking, and Germany win rates destroys this mode. And if that is not enough then you have the so called "veterans" that join the russian team that loves to scream and complain, instead of cordinating the attack/defense. It's like everyone turns to Gordon Ramsey on the russian team. Yelling, and telling people that they are **** don't really increase the morale...

People need to lighten up a bit. It's a game afterall. That goes for both teams. If you only play Germany, is it just to win? Why does winning matter that much? Join the loosing team for once and help balance things out. I promise you, it will be more fun if both sides have a equal chance of winning. And if you are on the russian team. Please, cordinate the attacks instead of just telling everyone how badass you are and that everyone else suck.

This also makes me wonder if all gaming communities are the same after all. Everyone complain about the CoD community and so on, but as I see it the difference isn't that big...
 
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Rattler

Grizzled Veteran
Dec 20, 2009
2,816
313
83
I join the Russian team and end up getting frustrated with them a lot of the time; which makes me switch back to the Axis team.
Exactly. Because we are good we have to join in the noobs team, is that so :confused: One good player can't turn the game upside down in RO2, this ain't CoD. In CoD one good player can carry his whole team to the victory but not in RO2. There's no point to join the Allies. You will lose in like 99% of the matches. Who plays the game just to lose every time?

It's no secret that the Red Orchestra series has always been polluted by a huge group of, let's call them, Nazi-stuff fanboys. They like the guns, tanks, uniforms etc. That's fine. Everybody is allowed to go retarded and become a jerk in public.

So being with the reds makes you better and not retarded? :rolleyes: Sure ;)
 
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JosephBaier

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 3, 2013
1,535
1
0
there is a guy with a win rate of +2.xx who plays allies only :p check the awesome screenshot thread