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TankTweak mutator

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gimpy117

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 6, 2011
527
111
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28
Michigan
That would mean we need to tweak the damage caused when a Pz.4 is hit. I doubt TWI will white-list a mutator that does this.
well, lets hope they do it themselves, or at least explain that they accidentally pitted an up-armored Pz.4 vs a t-34 firing crappy BR-350A rounds with no rigid core against a panzer with 80mm of armor frontally when the t34 should have the BR-350P round
 

Mike_Nomad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 15, 2006
5,025
1,037
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77
Florida, USA
www.raidersmerciless.com
Uneven teams are the fault of the mutator...what nonsense.
Ya think so DAY??? 10 per side - all good the auto balance is happy.

BUT: of the ten on the Allied side 6 are infantry - leaving 4 tanks.

On the German side, 8 are tanks and 2 are infantry...

Looks great on the leaderboard and autobalance is still happy.

Which side will dominate? :eek:

We ran the Mutator and had high hopes for it. But after the clobbering we saw... :confused:
 
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Zetsumei

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
12,459
1,433
0
31
Falmouth UK
That different teams select different weaponry and due to that win or loose, got nothing to do with the mutator. Its up to the players to select class, that one team picks a better class distribution got nothing to do with the mutator.

The relevance of your comparison is severely lacking :\. Its like saying the mutator causes unbalance, because if one team is strong and one team is weak the strong team will win. Its supposed to be such that the best team wins, a map should be balanced when parties are exactly the same.
 
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Mike_Nomad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 15, 2006
5,025
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www.raidersmerciless.com
----- snip ----- Its like saying the mutator causes unbalance, because if one team is strong and one team is weak the strong team will win. Its supposed to be such that the best team wins, a map should be balanced when parties are exactly the same.
You just made my point. The AI kept the foot-soldiers at bay. With the mutator, they are virtually free to roam. They mean little and do little harm other than to put the team they're on at a severe disadvantage. The AI MG "induced" ppl to play in a tank. Thus eliminating the possibility of a weak side because of the imbalance induced by the nerfed AI MG. Ogledow became a nightmare instead of a joy to play.

That's all I'm saying.... I asked for a way to use options to avoid this happenstance.
 
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Zetsumei

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
12,459
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Falmouth UK
If anything it makes ogledow closer to how it was originally intended to be played. Considering its a Roost map, and in roost tankers had no magical laser mger with them. If infantry annoys you just swap position to the MG yourself.
 
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Mike_Nomad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 15, 2006
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If anything it makes ogledow closer to how it was originally intended to be played. Considering its a Roost map, and in roost tankers had no magical laser mger with them. If infantry annoys you just swap position to the MG yourself.
Ah yes...... In ROOST the tankers had other resources not found in RO2. The main one being, jumping OUT of the tank and shooting the offensive infantry. Not to mention the agility of movement of the tanks themselves - its near impossible to run over a foot soldier in RO2. However, you neglect to address the balance issue. Swapping to the MG is dandy and its done but that does not rectify the illustrated 8 tanks vs. 2 tanks as indicated above.

The Allies were/are at a strong disadvantage in the above illustration.

But we stray from the original point.... There's only ONE problem with the Tank Tweak Mutator....

As a result of the nerfed AI gunner, imbalances are now the norm in a tank maps. You see, before, the AI polished off the players who "thought" they could do in the tanks on foot. There are usually insufficient numbers of infantry playing to have infantry protecting the tanks as it was in WW2 combat, so... the imbalances afield are many.

Now, you might see 10 players per side but in most cases, it'll actually be 8 or ten tanks to one side and 4 - 8 tanks to the other side with the differences being foot solders. It appears on the surface that the sides are balanced but in reality, one side or the other is heavily outnumbered.

The game becomes grievously out of balance. This anomaly was noticed this past weekend. Sadly, when those foot soldiers were asked to get in a tank to even the sides, they selfishly refused. Thus, ruining the game for everyone.

Tank Tweak is OK but it offers an unexpected problematic result.
 
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Major_Day

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 16, 2007
2,651
329
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Glasgow, Scotland
Mike this more likely to do with the fact that the Axis tank is better than the Allied tank in this game,i've played as an Allied tanker on this map,and believe me its no fun, the T34 is too weak.
 

Ducky

Super Moderator
May 22, 2011
6,358
237
0
Netherlands
You can tweak a lot of settings in the mutator. Using the mutator doesn't mean that you need to disable the hll MG completely. You could configure it to be deadly at short ranges for standing or walking targets and deadly on medium ranges for none moving targets. Then infantry still has to watch out not to come to close to the tank, but they won't be headshot over 400 meters.
 

Ducky

Super Moderator
May 22, 2011
6,358
237
0
Netherlands
Mike this more likely to do with the fact that the Axis tank is better than the Allied tank in this game,i've played as an Allied tanker on this map,and believe me its no fun, the T34 is too weak.
True, but it's not unplayable. The worst of all it that keyhole vision hull MG on the allies tank while the axis have a nice zoom visor on teher hull MG.
 

Mike_Nomad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 15, 2006
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Florida, USA
www.raidersmerciless.com
You can tweak a lot of settings in the mutator. Using the mutator doesn't mean that you need to disable the hll MG completely. You could configure it to be deadly at short ranges for standing or walking targets and deadly on medium ranges for none moving targets. Then infantry still has to watch out not to come to close to the tank, but they won't be headshot over 400 meters.
OK!! How about some samples of those settings - they sound great.
 
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Major_Day

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 16, 2007
2,651
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Glasgow, Scotland
OK!! How about some samples of those settings - they sound great.
I tried them for the first time last night against bots, and i couldn't get them to work,even at 50m? the hull mg wouldn't shoot,so yes a few sample configs would be nice.
Here's what i tried:

[TankTweak.TankTweak]
DifficultyInfantryMissPercentage=20.0(Recruit=35.0,Soldier=30.0,Veteran=25.0,Hero=20.0)
DifficultyMainGunVarianceFactor=(Recruit=1.0,Soldier=1.0,Veteran=0.66,Hero=0.25)
TargetSpeedMissPercentage=0.0(Still=0.0,Walking=0.0,Running=20.0)
RangeSettings=50.0(Short=50.0,Medium=100.0,Long=150.0)
RangeMissPercentage=10.0(Short=10.0,Medium=30.0,Long=60.0)
MainGunErrorVsDistRatios=(Horizontal=0.025,Vertical=0.0125)
AllowAIToControlHullMG=true
AllowAIToControlMainGun=false
[IniVersion]
0=1327193125.000000

Edit: i just tried the mutator again with the settings above,and its working fine on Pavlovs,Commisar's,Ogledow and FallenFighters, so perhaps i did something wrong last night.
 
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dazman76

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 23, 2011
672
176
0
UK / Stalingrad
Wow - I completely missed the extent of these options when I read Ducky's last update. Pretty damn impressive Duckster :D I had no idea you'd been able to go to those lengths in terms of your tweaks!
 

Ducky

Super Moderator
May 22, 2011
6,358
237
0
Netherlands
I tried them for the first time last night against bots, and i couldn't get them to work,even at 50m? the hull mg wouldn't shoot,so yes a few sample configs would be nice.
Here's what i tried:

[TankTweak.TankTweak]
DifficultyInfantryMissPercentage=20.0(Recruit=35.0,Soldier=30.0,Veteran=25.0,Hero=20.0)
DifficultyMainGunVarianceFactor=(Recruit=1.0,Soldier=1.0,Veteran=0.66,Hero=0.25)
TargetSpeedMissPercentage=0.0(Still=0.0,Walking=0.0,Running=20.0)
RangeSettings=50.0(Short=50.0,Medium=100.0,Long=150.0)
RangeMissPercentage=10.0(Short=10.0,Medium=30.0,Long=60.0)
MainGunErrorVsDistRatios=(Horizontal=0.025,Vertical=0.0125)
AllowAIToControlHullMG=true
AllowAIToControlMainGun=false
[IniVersion]
0=1327193125.000000

Edit: i just tried the mutator again with the settings above,and its working fine on Pavlovs,Commisar's,Ogledow and FallenFighters, so perhaps i did something wrong last night.
The server needs to be restarted after changing the ini file. Maybe you skipped that one, though I know you're experienced enough not to forget it :D

Edit:
I only noticed it now, but your settings are the mutators defaults with exception of these:
Code:
DifficultyInfantryMissPercentage=[COLOR=Yellow]20.0[/COLOR](Recruit=35.0,Soldier=30.0,Veteran=25.0,Hero=20.0)
DifficultyMainGunVarianceFactor=(Recruit=1.0,Soldier=1.0,Veteran=0.66,Hero=0.25)
TargetSpeedMissPercentage=[COLOR=Yellow]0.0[/COLOR](Still=0.0,Walking=0.0,Running=20.0)
RangeSettings=[COLOR=Yellow]50.0[/COLOR](Short=50.0,Medium=100.0,Long=150.0)
RangeMissPercentage=[COLOR=Yellow]10.0[/COLOR](Short=10.0,Medium=30.0,Long=60.0)
MainGunErrorVsDistRatios=(Horizontal=0.025,Vertical=0.0125)
AllowAIToControlHullMG=true
AllowAIToControlMainGun=[COLOR=DarkOrange]false[/COLOR]
Those yellow values shouldn't be there. An explanation can be found somewhere down this thread.
 
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Ducky

Super Moderator
May 22, 2011
6,358
237
0
Netherlands
Wow - I completely missed the extent of these options when I read Ducky's last update. Pretty damn impressive Duckster :D I had no idea you'd been able to go to those lengths in terms of your tweaks!
Actually, my first mutator started with those percentages and range tweaks, but then a lot were asking me if possible to disable the hull MG completely. So I did. Personally I prefer to have the hull MG enabled (but less accurate) and main gun disabled. The rational is that in reality a tank would always be having a crew, but not an aimbot crew. A stressed less accurate hull MG would prevent humans to stand still in front of the tank and sit idle, but they can still move and cross a street without getting headshot all the time. The main gun I prefer to be disabled because it's hard to drive when the bot is firing it. Especially if it's aiming to the side.

And yes I know. On my server they are both disabled, but that is because the disabling did give me most of the headache (especially blocking the turret) and that is what I tested the most. Did not yet change it back ;)
 
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Ducky

Super Moderator
May 22, 2011
6,358
237
0
Netherlands
How to configure the mutator:

These are TWIs defaults:
Code:
DifficultyInfantryMissPercentage=(Recruit=35.0,Soldier=30.0,Veteran=25.0,Hero=20.0)
DifficultyMainGunVarianceFactor=(Recruit=1.0,Soldier=1.0,Veteran=0.66,Hero=0.25)
TargetSpeedMissPercentage=(Still=0.0,Walking=0.0,Running=20.0)
RangeSettings=(Short=50.0,Medium=100.0,Long=150.0)
RangeMissPercentage=(Short=10.0,Medium=30.0,Long=60.0)
MainGunErrorVsDistRatios=(Horizontal=0.025,Vertical=0.0125)
AllowAIToControlHullMG=true
AllowAIToControlMainGun=true
The first 6 settings are structures. The Recruit, Soldier, Veteran and Hero settings are the settings for DifficultyInfantryMissPercentage will take effect if the game difficulty level is selected. For instance, if you set your server to Veteran, then a DifficultyInfantryMissPercentage of 25.0% will be used (TWI's default). To make the weapons less accurate, then you could change the first line into:
Code:
DifficultyInfantryMissPercentage=(Recruit=65.0,Soldier=60.0,Veteran=55.0,Hero=50.0)
The same for the DifficultyMainGunVarianceFactor setting. It's a multiplier to get less accuracy for the main gun. The lower the number, the more accurate. For example:
Code:
DifficultyMainGunVarianceFactor=(Recruit=1.0,Soldier=0.65,Veteran=0.45,Hero=0.20)
TargetSpeedMissPercentage can be used to add a miss percentage depending on how fast a target moves. Suppose we use:
Code:
TargetSpeedMissPercentage=(Still=0.0,Walking=10.0,Running=30.0)
And suppose we use the above DifficultyInfantryMissPercentage and server set to Veteran, then the total miss percentage on a none moving (including proned) target will be:
Code:
DifficultyInfantryMissPercentage.Veteran + TargetSpeedMissPercentage.Still =
55.0% + 0.0% = 55.0%
If on the other hand the target is walking then:
Code:
DifficultyInfantryMissPercentage.Veteran + TargetSpeedMissPercentage.Walking =
55.0% + 10.0% = 65.0%
And for running it will be 85.0%.

The next settings are the range settings. You can define 4 range groups:
- Short
- Medium
- Long
- Out of view
Suppose you use:
Code:
RangeSettings=(Short=30.0,Medium=150.0,Long=250.0)
Then it means that a short range is from 0m up to 30m. Medium from 31m up to 150m and long range from 151m up to 250m. Everything above 250 meters is out of view and can't be hit.
Next you can set an additional miss percentage for each range group (with exception of out of view). You can do that with the RangeMissPercentage. For example:
Code:
RangeMissPercentage=(Short=5.0,Medium=20.0,Long=40.0)
If we again use all the above examples and the servers difficulty level is set to Veteran, then the final miss percentage for the hull MG aiming at a walking target at 75 meters distance will be:
Code:
DifficultyInfantryMissPercentage.Veteran + TargetSpeedMissPercentage.Walking + RangeMissPercentage.Medium =
55.0% + 10.0% + 20.0%= 85.0%
If it's the main gun, then we have to multiply this value with the DifficultyMainGunVarianceFactor value for Veteran to get the final miss percentage for the main gun. In our example that would be:
Code:
85.0% x DifficultyMainGunVarianceFactor.Veteran =
85.0% x 0.45 = 38.3%
This means the hit change for the main gun is 61.7% for a walking target at 75 meters distance while for the hull MG the hit change is 15.0%.
Please not that these percentages only count for AIs controlling the weapons. If a human is in position, then it will be his own skill.
 
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