Tank Wishlist

[barakas]

In this thread, post what you would like to see in ROHOS tank wise.

Besides proper animations and tanks being able to roll over weak obstacles:

PLEASE MAKE BEING IN TANKS FEEL SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

YouTube - LEBANON trailer

I know this film isn't 100% realistic, I have no clue what its really like in a tank, but I think realism of 'feel', is just as important as realism of tank stats.

One of my biggest problems with tank gaming in RO-OST, is that it does not feel as immersive and intense as infantry combat, one of the reasons i love RO.

-realistic lighting

The inside of tanks on RO:OST are all perfectly lit, no shadows or darkness, I know this is a limit of the UE2 engine but I hope they add this in ROHOS.

-WORKING DIALS/DETAIL

inside tank you should be able to read dials that correspond to real factors (oil, fuel etc)

I know there'll be no refuelling in game, but say if the fuel tank is penetrated, you should start losing fuel and when you run out the engine wont start, this is better than having an ICON on the screen saying fuel tank is hit.

Also, have any SMOKE, OIL, FIRE visible inside the tank if its meant to be there. In RO-OST the whole tank can be about to blow and it looks no different from a new tank.

Also let me see ammo, and if I'm in the MG position, let me see an animation of the reloading.

-Radio

In tank radio (voice communication) + radio communication with other radios in game (possibility of listening to enemy radio if tuned to right frequency?)

This would have to go with a 3D voice system that would mean voices can't be heard all over the map, only in proximity / over radio.

-MOVEMENT

Not just animation getting in and out of the tank, but inside you should be able to move (with WASD) from different positions. Also when climbing out of the tank, you should be in control, not a played animation, so that you can shoot and duck as you get out of the hatch.


-SOUNDS

This is one of the most important parts. In RO:OST tanks don't sound any different whether you're inside or outside the tank, and of course they should be LOUDER. (maybe allow an option for quiet tanks for those who dont want the realism)

When inside the tank fires its cannon, it should, sound, look and feel (screen shake?) like it would in real life inside, not the same sound inside and out.

If the Turret Traverse is broken let me HEAR to grinding of gears. If the engine is damaged let me HEAR it struggling.

If the tank is hit by another tank, you should be able to 'feel' it, and the tank crew should experience similar affects to real life.

In RO:OST if someone shoots close to you, you can "feel it", in tanks, a shell can bounce off or penetrate, but you can barely tell except for a small noise.

Getting hit in a tank should "shock" you like being shot close to does as infantry.

In tanks in RO:OST I feel like I'm sitting in a clean simulator, not a real, cramped, loud, oily tank.

Also in Realism servers, turret traverse should NOT work without the engine being switched on, Driver should be able to switch the engine on or off by looking at the controls and pressing USE (this would add to gameplay, trying to get engine to start if the tank is damaged).

This would make team tanking much more important.

Also if the engine is on, and the driver is killed, the engine should not automatically switch off. This way if the driver is killed by PTRD, or explosive force, the tank will keep on driving if the throttle is engaged, so killing a driver is more realistic since one of the other tankers will have to get in the driver seat to stop the tank.

In RO:OST infantry feels immersive and realistic.
Tanks feel detached and like a simulator.
The armour penetration and ballistics can be right, but without realistic feel, it loses out on the experience.

 

[Nezzer]

Great wishlist! But I think free movent inside the tanks are not needed more than just animations.

 

[Mormegil]

-realistic lighting

The inside of tanks on RO:OST are all perfectly lit, no shadows or darkness, I know this is a limit of the UE2 engine but I hope they add this in ROHOS.

While the lighting from ROOST can use a lot of improvement, I just want to point out the lighting in the trailer wasn't particularly realistic either. That was dramatic cinema lighting, using rim-lighting (offset backlit lights, typically with grids), along with fill light, etc. I would imagine it would be dark with an overhead light. I dunno if UE3 can handle that kind of dynamic lighting.

Also, the images in the trailer through the telescopic sight, don't seem like their from a telescopic / telephoto lens. They look more like they were taken up close with a normal lens (you can tell by the perspective). Those shots didn't make me feel like I was looking through a tank's optics, but watching a movie. But that's just nitpicking.

As to the loudness of the tanks, I believe tankers typically wore ear protectors. Hopefully with in tank wired communication too. If anything tanks should be louder from the outside, so infantry can really hear them.


Gauges and such would only be useful if we're dealing with more engine simulation. At the very least manual transmission. I doubt we'll see that (but maybe in realism servers), since TWI originally had manual transmission, but decided for gameplay reasons to go with "automatic."

Lots of good ideas, too.

 

[barakas]

Great wishlist! But I think free movent inside the tanks are not needed more than just animations.

I disagree. Imagine you're in an urban environment, and a panzerfaust has just taken out your tanks tracks. The tank commander opens the hatch, and takes a bullet to the head.

Now either you could hit the exit key, in which case you unrealistically are not in control, and can be shot at and cant react, or if you are able to move, you can go to the hatch, blind fire out of it, throw a grenade, stick your head out for a second to look around etc.

IMO taking control away from the player should only be done when truly neccesary. Being able to control your movement inside a vehicle seems important.

Also this way, players could have the choice between leaving from the drivers hatch, or the turret hatch, so if enemy fire is coming from behind, they can crawl out the drivers hatch to safety.

This might be too much trouble to implement, but if its not i think it would make a good addition.

Also don't forget this would work for all vehicles, so if a half track takes a PTRD to the engine and stops, troops can actually move naturally, climb over the sides (mantle) or go prone and crawl out, rather than just hit a key and wait for an animation.

There can still be "slots", but you would move into them naturally, im not suggesting that players be moving around while driving, just that when they hit the "exit" key, you get a choice to move around as normal so you have control over your exit.

While the lighting from ROOST can use a lot of improvement, I just want to point out the lighting in the trailer wasn't particularly realistic either. That was dramatic cinema lighting, using rim-lighting (offset backlit lights, typically with grids), along with fill light, etc. I would imagine it would be dark with an overhead light. I dunno if UE3 can handle that kind of dynamic lighting.

Yeah, well like I said, I have no idea what its really like being in a tank, but this film is the best example of what I could find of what I would think it looks like, rather than the sterile simulator look the tanks currently have in RO.

UE3 most definitely can handle the lighting, the only issue is what kind of load it would put on the server.

I dont even think it has to be fully fledged dynamic lighting, just not so that the lighting is uniform on the entire inside of the tank, which makes it look kind of unreal.

Outside lighting is less of a big deal, since static lighting looks (mostly) like daylight, but when its as bright inside a tank as it is outside, it messes with immersion.

 

[The_Emperor]

Several tanks have a good distance from the body's bottom to the ground, so if a man could survive if he's in prone position. Particularly the T34 had a good distance to the ground which also made it so excellent at cross-country. So it should be possible to crawl beneath it and too survive a drive over if no part of your body gets beneath the tank's treads.

Generally I'd like to turn off the engine, so to say you're stealthed if not in open space. I always hated it that you can't hide in a small forest and turn off the notorious and alarming engine sound.

Movement inside the tank and animations for boarding and getting off are a must have in my eyes too. So people can't just escape by running to a tank and playing wizzard and they are at the main gun with two seconds later and you're balsted away.

I'd like to have the ability to hijack enemy vehicles, abandoned tanks are normally not locked. To indentify vehicles the crew's nations symbols should be displayed on the tank, f.ex. a T-34 is captured by the Germans, it should bear the German Cross (no swastika) on both sides of the turret.
I know it's a bit of a sorcery thingy to simply draw those symbolics on the tanks but somehow captured tanks were painted as allies in real war too. Of course this didn't take place in direct combat situation, but in multiplayer the won't be some sort of field repairshop.

For some images how it should look like, check here.

And now as I have requested the K

 

[Pvt.Skoko]

GREAT POSTS, I would love the moving around in tank and from seats and mantling and everything!

 

[Mormegil]

That is a great argument for movement inside vehicles. Unfortunately, I doubt that could be handled well with current IP bandwidth in a moving vehicle. I don't see why that couldn't be used in a stopped vehicle, and I think that would rock.

As far as dynamic lighting goes, I don't think the server has anything to do with that, as rendering tends to be client side. So if UE3 can handle it, all the better. I can imagine the shadows / lighting might shake if the bulb rattles due to movement, or being hit.

 

[Nezzer]

I'd like to have the ability to hijack enemy vehicles, abandoned tanks are normally not locked. To indentify vehicles the crew's nations symbols should be displayed on the tank, f.ex. a T-34 is captured by the Germans, it should bear the German Cross (no swastika) on both sides of the turret.
I know it's a bit of a sorcery thingy to simply draw those symbolics on the tanks but somehow captured tanks were painted as allies in real war too. Of course this didn't take place in direct combat situation, but in multiplayer the won't be some sort of field repairshop.

I don't think it'd be realistic to hijack enemy tanks and change its colour in less than a second. I agree with the usage of captured enemy tanks like the Commonwealth did with Italian tanks in North Africa, but they should be already in the team spawn like any other tank, because a paintjob takes time.

 

[TT33]

Tanks feel detached and like a simulator.
The armour penetration and ballistics can be right, but without realistic feel, it loses out on the experience.

The ballistics, penetration and armor were NOT realistic in RO1. There have been various post covering the flaws and historical errors of the red orchestra tanking system and its lack of realism. Much more deatiled and more realistic systems such as the Armored beasts mutator and the Darkest hour's tanking system are still too simple to be considered a "simulator".
To me that like calling kite flying an aircraft sim.

"You wanna buy kite? Buy kite! Get the girls."-

 

[Mormegil]

The ballistics, penetration and armor were NOT realistic in RO1.

Just pointing out, realistic is relative. It's better than any other WWII FPS game out there.

 

[The_Emperor]

I don't think it'd be realistic to hijack enemy tanks and change its colour in less than a second. I agree with the usage of captured enemy tanks like the Commonwealth did with Italian tanks in North Africa, but they should be already in the team spawn like any other tank, because a paintjob takes time.

Well totally repaint it's color won't work. That's not what I meant but you could exchange the Soviet star against a German Balkenkreuz. Of course it should be possible to directly set them up to any team. The basic option was yet given in the mod but it never worked out, sadly.

About tank paintings in general, there was a realism mod for the mod called LSSAH Mod. This mod featured besides a large variety of uniforms (camo and coat etc) quite some paintings for the tanks, would be great to have this kind of variety. Also for mappers to have the ability to change the skin of the tanks they are putting into their maps.

 

[Mormegil]

First off, how often to tankers abandon tank? Since this isn't our real lives, not too often. People do bail when the tank is about to be hit (a whole other issue). So I don't think capturing enemy tanks wouldn't* be much of a game play issue. I'm sure it would be easy to code for.

But aside from the fantasy of insta-repaint, unless you're tank crew was already trained for using captured tanks, it seems unrealistic to me that you would know how to work the tank. At the very least, I would expect a longer reload delay.

If something like this goes in, the tank paint shouldn't change - you'll have to communicate to your teammates that you have an enemy tank, just like in real life, or when you capture an enemy MG.

edit: typo - originally put "would be"

 

[Oldih]

Capturing enemy tank seems bit off-scale and out of place, already for the fact typical RO tank that's out of action is a writeoff. Those rare cases when somebody simply jumps off you would need to basically abandon your own tank to take the enemy tank into action, so what do you do with that lonely tank that was just left around? Just leave it be until it blows up magically? That would also bring a problem how long tank could stay still before going kaboom? We know that in RO damaged tank that is abandoned will basically self-destruct within 5 seconds to prevent it simply from standing there for the rest of the game.

Map with captured eguipment is one thing, but capturing in middle of a game would be somewhat stupid.

 

[barakas]

First off, how often to tankers abandon tank? Since this isn't our real lives, not too often.

Fairly regularly if the tracks/engine are hit. Staying in a static tank in certain maps is a death sentence.

And in ROHOS tracks will be damaged much more often, since the hit location is off in ROOST which leads to an unnaturally small number of track hits.

Also if they added more nuanced tank damages (leaking fuel tank, leaking oil etc), tanks would break down more often and not just blow up, which would lead to more bailing.

 

[Nezzer]

The ballistics, penetration and armor were NOT realistic in RO1. There have been various post covering the flaws and historical errors of the red orchestra tanking system and its lack of realism.

Yeah, I commented about it in a dead thread of ROOST forum a couple months ago. I think that "damage system" should be abolished, being replaced by a more realistic penetration system, in which the shell does penetrate or it doesn't, meaning if it doesn't, it won't damage the tank, except for more fragile parts like the tracks. A Tiger, for example, could take dozens of shells if they didn't penetrate the armour(I heard about a Tiger that survived more than 60 hits).

So I think if the shell does penetrate the armour, it should disable the entire tank in a single shot depending where it was hit, like the ammo section, or disable some parts like the turret or engine if those were the parts hit(but if only those parts were hit, the rest of the tank could stay intact, like in Men of War). Sometimes in ROOST a shell penetrates but it causes damage to the tank, turning its status to yellow or red, which is stupid, 'cause if a shell penetrated that spot and the tank wasn't disabled, another shell in the same spot should do more damage nor disable it, like the same three fatal hits in the same spot that usually take to destroy a medium tank.

Another thing I'd like to add is an improvement in the armour: T34s had a sloped frontal armour, which used to deflect smaller shells, but in ROOST T34's frontal armour is pretty vulnerable. Same thing goes for the Tiger, though the frontal armour wasn't sloped, but it was the thickest part of the tank(I even heard that no Tiger had a frontal armour penetration in the war), but in ROOST, three frontal hits from a T34 would destroy one.

 

[Nezzer]

Fairly regularly if the tracks/engine are hit. Staying in a static tank in certain maps is a death sentence.

And in ROHOS tracks will be damaged much more often, since the hit location is off in ROOST which leads to an unnaturally small number of track hits.

Also if they added more nuanced tank damages (leaking fuel tank, leaking oil etc), tanks would break down more often and not just blow up, which would lead to more bailing.

And why would someone enter a useless enemy tank?

 

[barakas]

That is a great argument for movement inside vehicles. Unfortunately, I doubt that could be handled well with current IP bandwidth in a moving vehicle. I don't see why that couldn't be used in a stopped vehicle, and I think that would rock.

Not sure what bandwidth issues it would cause? Surely moving about in a vehicle would be no less demanding than moving about in a room?

The player wouldn't actually have to be moving "inside" the tank, as if it was a room anyway, the player could still be "locked" into the vehicle, but instead of being "locked" in one spot, they are locked in a small area, that seems like you can move about naturally, but is actually scripted to stop issues with collision.

Even if they just add the ability to use weapon inside certain vehicles, move between positions with WASD, and blind fire/use cover that will be close enough.

Its more immersive to move about using WASD, not numbers, even if they're both just causing an animation to be played while you switch.

Also this stops magic jumping, i.e. if you're in a tank, you cant jump from driver to MG without going into main section.

Currently in tanks you can already use "cover", by scrolling the mouse wheel, add ability to use gun, add ability to blindfire inside turret, bingo, improved vehicle combat.

Although I think the UE3 engine can support moving inside moving vehicles as if it were a solid object.

I can imagine the shadows / lighting might shake if the bulb rattles due to movement, or being hit.

Neat idea, its little touches like this I want to see TWI implement in Tanking to make it more immersive.

Large explosions could also cause the bulb to break, giving a visual indication of the damage being done to the tank.

 

[Mormegil]

(I even heard that no Tiger had a frontal armour penetration in the war)

I believe that's the King Tiger / Tiger II, not the original. The later war HVAP and 152mm rounds were probably enough to do it. It's moot anyways, as it's doubtful we'll see a Tiger I, much less Tiger II in Stalingrad, as it's a bit before it's time.

 

[Mormegil]

Not sure what bandwidth issues it would cause? Surely moving about in a vehicle would be no less demanding than moving about in a room?

The server would have to keep track of the movement of the vehicle, being controlled by one player, and keep track of your own attempts to move inside the vehicle, then extrapolate where you are moving relative to the map (not the vehicle), then send that positional and velocity data back to your computer to put you in the right place. This might not be a problem when you're in a buttoned tank, where you can't see the rest of the map, but would be an issue in say a half-track, or a Bren carrier, where you can see the rest of the world. It could easily go off sync from where you should be.

The positional data relative to the map is important for hit detection. Even inside a buttoned tank, the server must know where you are to calculate hits from penetrating tank rounds.

Now imagine all that with a full half-track. That adds up to a lot of data going down the series of tubes that is the internet.

 

[The_Emperor]

Okay 0:1 for you on cpaturing an enemy tank, but still I'd like to have it that from start of the map tanks can be set axis or allied. Then axis symbols should be on a soviet tank and vice versa. Now okay?