Tank turret & gun control (POLL!)

[Nikita]

They decided to go with the design decision of having the turrent control via mouse...

I imagine the main reason for this was simply to avoid people having to switch between movement (WSAD) and head control (Mouse) and movement (WSAD) and turret control (↑↓←→), or whatever combination of the 2. Having the turrent controlled by the keys as well as giving commands to the tank crew would be a little awkward.

If you really want the turret control to be done with keys (if it isn't in the game) then get a free mouse emulator and bind it the keys you want to use.

I feel that in all honesty, using WASD for turret movement and the mouse for head movement was the most intuitive and versatile control scheme. I could, for example, turn my turret towards a choke point while looking behind me to check whether or not my supporting infantrymen were moving up. I could aim my main gun at an adjacent oblivious enemy tank while calculating the range to its more distant partner using the binoculars. It felt natural--the simple, quick control to simulate turning my head, and the mouse keys to move the bulky turret.

The current plan for RO2 is for the commander, who no longer guns, to use the mouse to look around, clicking to order the gunner to traverse the turret while using WASD to direct the driver.

What everybody is concerned about, however, is not what the commander is doing but what controls the gunner must use to traverse. In his case, since he is the one actually manipulating the turret controls, and since he does not need to worry about the tank's movement, using WASD is the most immersive, historically accurate option and sacrifices nothing in terms of gameplay. Will this be confusing? Disorientating? Unfriendly to newcomers? Well, when I first tanked in RO:O, I moved the mouse, found it wasn't moving the turret, then tried the WASD keys and found they worked. That oh-so-high learning curve? Elapsed time: 5 seconds.

The main problem most new players have seems to be learning to open the hatch and look outside the tank.

Besides, remember that RO2, unlike Ostfront, will feature tutorials. New players will figure out the system quite easily. And tanking is supposed to be more complex than running around with a rifle. Of course it will take longer to master.

 

[SheepDip]

I'm not suggesting the learning curve is high, merely that the control method would be cumbersome - and that I understand why TWI chose to implement it in this manner.

I can't really discuss this further as I can't counter your points reasonably without unintentionally divulging how the tank aiming system currently works.

 

[Major_Day]

I'm not suggesting the learning curve is high, merely that the control method would be cumbersome - and that I understand why TWI chose to implement it in this manner.

I can't really discuss this further as I can't counter your points reasonably without unintentionally divulging how the tank aiming system currently works.

Why don't Tripwire explain it to us then, why keep the details to themselves when so many ppl. want to know?

 

[sez_slothrop]

We've already got the ideal system with WASD, why change it at all?:IS2:

Well its ideal for close ranges, but over 1000 meters or so WASD gets a little clunky, especially against moving targets. Fine adjustments with the mouse overcome this. Also, it sounds like HoS is going to involve a lot of precision aiming at subsystems or weakpoints.

 

[Major_Day]

Well its ideal for close ranges, but over 1000 meters or so WASD gets a little clunky, especially against moving targets. Fine adjustments with the mouse overcome this. Also, it sounds like HoS is going to involve a lot of precision aiming at subsystems or weakpoints.

You might be right,we'll just have to wait and see,but irl tanks didn't have such a precision aiming system as you would get with a mouse, or a precision turret system either.
Clunky is good, its worked fine for a long time now as well, and it demands a certain amount of skill from the gunner at long ranges against moving targets

 

[Kirq]

Definitely keyboard.

 

[NightriderAOF]

Why don't Tripwire explain it to us then, why keep the details to themselves when so many ppl. want to know?

Might be saving it for a video down the line. There's still a good two months for them to release info to whet our appetites.

 

[SheepDip]

Why don't Tripwire explain it to us then, why keep the details to themselves when so many ppl. want to know?

I don't know for certain - but I'd imagine any information kept from you is either because :

a) They have a big reveal set for a certain date with a certain magazine/website/show etc

or

b) The current implementation is not final - and therefore announcing it before it has reached its final version is pointless.

 

[RiccardoTheBeAst]

I completely agree with Unus. Keyboard.

We could argue all day about which system we prefer, but if both options are available then their is no need to argue.
I think i read somewhere that all keys are customisable, and if that is true TWI could end all argument by confirming that we could still use the keyboard as well as the mouse.

I want to say that i'm quoting you, but my answer is referred to everyone that agree with your idea, it isn't a specific answer to you

So, the point is that your post is senseless. Everyone will choose the mouse obviously if you leave people able to choose.

Why not allowing auto-aim? What's the problem? Every one is free to choose what he wants. Players who want realism can disable it, no problems then....

Why not allowing everything that makes the game easier? (i'm ironic, just to prevent misunderstandings that in this thread looks pretty common)

It's damn obvious that everyone will use the damn mouse to aim lol
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Using the mouse for control wont just be easier, it will much faster as-well, and as such when things become competitive (and they always do), then everyone will opt for the mouse; simply because its faster.

This was repeated lot of time, but noone give an answer to this point

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Oh for the love of God, please refer to Sheepdip's answer above...

 

[Major_Day]

Thanks Mr Moe...its getting too silly now

 

[cameron.]

Why not allowing everything that makes the game easier? (i'm ironic, just to prevent misunderstandings that in this thread looks pretty common)

It's damn obvious that everyone will use the damn mouse to aim lol

This was repeated lot of time, but noone give an answer to this point

I as well as others have responded to this point before, here is a similar answer to my last:

First off I am still going to assume that both options will be equally hard/easy to use but even if that is not the case it is easy enough to introduce simple unobtrusive limitations in the use of a mouse to aim to balance the two systems. Even if it turns out after testing out the current system that the mouse is significantly easier to use, the situation can be easily remedied without going around taking options away from the player before we have even seen how those options work.

For me at least it is not a matter of wanting an easier option but wanting an option at all. I assume use of the mouse will be rather popular whether or not it is any easier then the keyboard. The people who want the option should not be dismissed because you don't want to consider any alternative to taking away options just because they might not work perfectly the first time they are put in.

 

[Frostedfire]

The current plan for RO2 is for the commander, who no longer guns, to use the mouse to look around, clicking to order the gunner to traverse the turret while using WASD to direct the driver.

What everybody is concerned about, however, is not what the commander is doing but what controls the gunner must use to traverse.

I know that works on the p4, but doesn't the t-34/76 have the commander also gunning due to the crappy amount of room in that cone-turret?

 

[heady89]

I'd prefer the 'WASD' keys as well, makes it more realistically hard and gives you the immersion that you're actually cranking a turrent up/down/left/right etc.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

This whole "give people the option to choose" argument is pretty pathetic and designed specifically to make all those who disagree almost look like dictators.

People need to understand that I didn't draw attention to this point about turret control because I have some sort of desire to restrict peoples freedom, I brought it up because it's an issue that has the potential to ruin the immersion when being a tank gunner in game. But it won't just be the poor guy in the gunners seat who will notice something's terribly off, it will also be the outside onlookers who will observe the distinctive mouse inflicted movements of the tank turret.

In addition to the point about immersion comes the point about actual realism: In reality you have two seperated controls for traversing the turret and elevating the gun, and as such target tracking and acquisition demands coordination in the traverse & elevation of the gun; something that is spot on simulated by use of a different key for each action. With the mouse for control however the need for coordination between traverse & elevation ceases to exist, and it's a simple matter of just pointing the cursor onto the target and wait for the gun to automatically position itself; this leads to lightning fast target acquisition, and even worse, the possibility for people to in general shoot accurately on the move.

Now all of this is ofcourse great news for all those CoD & BF refugees we see here so often, but for those who are looking for a realistic experience with all its' challenges (who I dare say make up the vast majority of the true fans of the series) will have to live with a immersion breaking compromise.

 

[Fedorov]

Now all of this is ofcourse great news for all those CoD & BF refugees we see here so often, but for those who are looking for a realistic experience with all its' challenges

I hate both CoD and BF, but I'm fan of the pure Red Orchestra that came out in 2003/4, which uses the mouse and never broke the immersion.

But thanks for wrongly labeling us as some sort of lower beings or simple life forms, just to prove the superiority of your stance.

PS: Not quoting the rest of your post because you've repeat it at least 20 times already. Reading the same argument over and over is getting kinda tiresome now and doesn't make it any more valid.

 

[Major_Day]

This whole "give people the option to choose" argument is pretty pathetic and designed specifically to make all those who disagree almost look like dictators.

People need to understand that I didn't draw attention to this point about turret control because I have some sort of desire to restrict peoples freedom, I brought it up because it's an issue that has the potential to ruin the immersion when being a tank gunner in game. But it won't just be the poor guy in the gunners seat who will notice something's terribly off, it will also be the outside onlookers who will observe the distinctive mouse inflicted movements of the tank turret.

In addition to the point about immersion comes the point about actual realism: In reality you have two seperated controls for traversing the turret and elevating the gun, and as such target tracking and acquisition demands coordination in the traverse & elevation of the gun; something that is spot on simulated by use of a different key for each action. With the mouse for control however the need for coordination between traverse & elevation ceases to exist, and it's a simple matter of just pointing the cursor onto the target and wait for the gun to automatically position itself; this leads to lightning fast target acquisition, and even worse, the possibility for people to in general shoot accurately on the move.

Now all of this is ofcourse great news for all those CoD & BF refugees we see here so often, but for those who are looking for a realistic experience with all its' challenges (who I dare say make up the vast majority of the true fans of the series) will have to live with a immersion breaking compromise.

I voted WASD, because i agree with everything you say about it in the above post, but what i don't agree with is the part where you call players from other games refugees, what nonsense!
I voted WASD, because i think its the best and most realistic way of doing it, but in the interest of fairness i also agree that ppl. should be free to choose whichever option they prefer.
Options are good, as is freedom of choice, the freedom to choose to move from one game to another,and the freedom to be able to choose which method of turret control you prefer.
TWI might not give us that choice, but then again neither would you.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Geeze, people are so sensitive these days

Let me rephrase myself then:

I don't believe that the true treadheads in here are going to be satisfied with the mouse for turret control.

As for the comment about refugees, how many individuals haven't we seen so far come here and talk about balance instead of realism etc.? I've lost count, but these people have completely missed the point of what this game is all about.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

But thanks for wrongly labeling us as some sort of lower beings or simple life forms, just to prove the superiority of your stance.

Yeah, cause that's exactly what I did Federov, cause I'm an evil dictator of opinions

But excuse me for not believing that you are one of the true treadheads in here who pretty much just plays the game for the tanking part. I am under the impression that you came to love RO because of the infantry mechanics, and not the tanking ones. If I'm wrong however you're probably one of the very few true treadheads in here with a preference for mouse control for the turret.

Those of us who really prefer realism will also automatically prefer the keyboard solution (or joystick if possible), and that simply because that mouse control is so far from how you do gun laying in real life that it completely ruins the feel. Ofcourse for ultimate realism we'd be super excited if we could have handwheels, foot pedals and joysticks for control on our desk, but we aren't exactly running around the room with a controller shaped like a gun aiming at the screen when playing as infantry either. So we gotta take what we can get, and using the keyboard is so far the closest we can come to the gun laying of a WW2 tank without going to the extremes of becoming a downright tank simulator.

 

[Fedorov]

Yeah, cause that's exactly what I did Federov, cause I'm an evil dictator of opinions

But excuse me for not believing that you are one of the true treadheads in here who pretty much just plays the game for the tanking part. I am under the impression that you came to love RO because of the infantry mechanics, and not the tanking ones. If I'm wrong however you're probably one of the very few true treadheads in here with a preference for mouse control for the turret.

Ask anyone who have been in the BFE with me, you'd be surprised