Tank Question for MODs

[Madeyes]

Hiya guys.
Ok i'm a tester for one of the mods & there's abit if discussion going on as to how the tanks are implimented in the game.
So my question is would you prefer
1) The tanks to be historically accurate knowing the Sherman Firefly has no chance against a Panther or Tiger unless there's a few of them to out manuever the axis tank but as an Allied tanker your gonna be killed quite alot.
2) The armour is artificially modified to even the tanks up so they are a lot closer than in real life but may improve gameplay for the Allied tankers.
Cheers.
Rob

 

[Yoshiro]

As far as I know (but you will want to talk with Alan to be sure), the tanks in RO are modeled as close to real as we could get in engine barring systems that are missing from the game (ie: turret not seperate from hull which some mods have implemented). The problem with armor systems is there is much conflicting data out there. Also of note is that when the game release view distance was about 800-900 meters even on the tank maps. This is still "close" when it comes to tank combat.

 

[Madeyes]

The problem (if you can call it that) we're having is the total domination of a Tiger & Panther over a Sherman. A Panther can sit in the middle of the map & as long as a Firefly doesn't get behind him then he can dominate the map & defeat all comers. Now this may be fairly accurate with armour & penetration values but it doesn't make for a fun day if your an allied tanker in a Ronson Sherman. So is it best to leave them like this for Historical accuracy or modify them for the sake of gameplay? Lets face it no one likes to be taken out 20 times in a map without getting a kill. Some people will say it will encourage teamwork & proper tank tactics but i doubt that very much. I'd just likee to know what the Communty think about it.
As i said in another deleted post i tried to make a poll on thie thread but it idn't seem to work.
Cheers.
Rob

 

[Metalbourne]

Being perhaps one of the only Allied "True" tank units left in RO/DH, I must vote for up armoring them a little bit. Call them Jumbo Shermans if need be or late shermans (because by late war they doubled their weight due to armor and 76mm). On Weicht Am Reihn allies get destoyed every time against an even slightly good German force. Now on Foy, I've destroyed the Panther 3 times with the same Sherman, due to concellment. Wait for the Panther to go by then pop out and shoot it in the rear. I think up armoring them a little is truly the only way to make it fair since the allies have no numbers advantage or airpower advantage in game. I know new tanks are coming and IMHO can't get here fast enough. This is why there are no more ALlied units left in realism campaigns. I would really like to have the HVSS "E8" 76mm Sherman above all tanks for the allies. This tank had a great gun for anti-tank and reload times should be the same along with better armor. I hope more tank vs tank maps are created for DH mod and Mare Nostrum makes El Aleimeghin, Kasserine Pass, and Tunisa tank maps because that's all we like to play are tanks. SHD is currently #1 in the tank tourney for the RO:League so that shows our dedication and experience with tanks for RO.

 

[I. Kant]

I'd say keep things the way they were in reality, but have Jerries spawn one tank against, for example, two or three Allied. No one can angle forever against multiple foes, I think.
But obviously, you'd have to test that out to see if that doesn't tip the balance in the other direction, allowing Allied tanks to mow down any infantry.

Cheers and good luck with your work.

 

[Psycho_Sam]

The problem (if you can call it that) we're having is the total domination of a Tiger & Panther over a Sherman. A Panther can sit in the middle of the map & as long as a Firefly doesn't get behind him then he can dominate the map & defeat all comers. Now this may be fairly accurate with armour & penetration values but it doesn't make for a fun day if your an allied tanker in a Ronson Sherman. So is it best to leave them like this for Historical accuracy or modify them for the sake of gameplay? Lets face it no one likes to be taken out 20 times in a map without getting a kill. Some people will say it will encourage teamwork & proper tank tactics but i doubt that very much. I'd just likee to know what the Communty think about it.
As i said in another deleted post i tried to make a poll on thie thread but it idn't seem to work.
Cheers.
Rob

Well thats a decision the DH developers have to come to.

 

[UncleDrax]

The problem with armor systems is there is much conflicting data out there.

Tell me about it :/


TBH, for the 'Shermans vs Tiger' debate, i vote I. Kant. Have multiple shermans for each tiger.. to my limited euro-theatre knowledge, it'd be more accurate, and that way you don't ahve to come up with artifical game-balance features, and, assuming it's DH, you can stick with the historical accuracy factors

 

[American_Psycho]

Simple. Keep the tanks historically accurate (armor/gun pentration) like they were in WW2. Just give the allies a numerical advantage like they had.

 

[dogbadger]

Simple. Keep the tanks historically accurate (armor/gun pentration) like they were in WW2. Just give the allies a numerical advantage like they had.

I've never really thought that approach would actually work in attracting appropriate numbers of players to each side and keeping them both happy.

It is more likely to mean more people fighting at the spawns for the limited powerfull armour while masses of the lesser kit sits abandoned at the other end of the map. It goes back to the orel imbalance debates and my thoughts were and still are -

traditionally in games peeps want to (and indeed do) play using superior loadouts and are up against the greater numbers ie. more to shoot at and a higher ratio of kills to deaths. This is the situation that will attract most players.
It's all well and good saying keep the numbers and armour capabilities historically accurate but just how many ppl wanna play as the cannon fodder?
Sure you can argue that teaming up will overcome superior kit but to absolutely force perfect cooperation on public servers to make any kinda headway, against a team that requires no teamwork at all to succeed never seemed right to me.

 

[Madeyes]

The problem is also the fact that we can't blow off the tracks of the Tigers/Panthers & so disable them so the faster Shermans can get round behind & take out the Axis tanks. Plus we don't have the benefit of air supremacy to call in a couple of typhoon or P51's which was the tactic towards the end of the war. This is why we have to consider the inaccurate tank modifation as the tank armour/Shell penetration doesn't tell the whole story of the tank battles.
No realistic tank damage & no air support makes the historical accuracy of the armour a bit one sided as this is not the situation during the post Normandy confrontations.
Cheers.
Rob

 

[Psycho_Sam]

The problem is also the fact that we can't blow off the tracks of the Tigers/Panthers & so disable them so the faster Shermans can get round behind & take out the Axis tanks. Plus we don't have the benefit of air supremacy to call in a couple of typhoon or P51's which was the tactic towards the end of the war. This is why we have to consider the inaccurate tank modifation as the tank armour/Shell penetration doesn't tell the whole story of the tank battles.
No realistic tank damage & no air support makes the historical accuracy of the armour a bit one sided as this is not the situation during the post Normandy confrontations.
Cheers.
Rob

Thats not quite true, you can track any tank in RO already (or should be able to). In Mare Nostrum we increased the chance of tracking tanks with some weapons to give our AT-Infantry more of a punch, so no reason DH cannot just do a similar thing.

 

[SchutzeSepp]

the DH tankcode is not yet optimal, in the coming patch the tankcode has been seriously reworked for more realism. i believe most allied tanks are slightly more powerfull, this is not for gameplay but for realism, as up to now some were weaker then they should have been.
especially the firefly has been fixed, and is now capable of taking out any tank. since it has the 17 pdr wich performs slightly better then the tiger's 88. but as usual like most allied tanks it has the armor of a paper bag.
sherman's just couldn't take direct hits, it's as simple as that. there is no way they could bounce off shells coming from panzer IV's and up.

so make sure you give our tanks a go as soon as the patch is out, especially with the new tanks being added !

 

[Nagels]

Optic range finders would be the way forward for the Allied tanks....long shots from cover, does the optic range finder work in the Allied tanks?.....shows zero metres in my game everytime I tried ranging.

 

[Madeyes]

No the sight range doesn't work atm. Not sure if the latest patch will be fixing it. I think they're concentrating on the infantry side of the game for now but the tank side of the mod is still being worked on. Tank & combined arms maps are in progress as we speak with a combined map on beta testing atm.
Cheers.
Rob

 

[SchutzeSepp]

Optic range finders would be the way forward for the Allied tanks....long shots from cover, does the optic range finder work in the Allied tanks?.....shows zero metres in my game everytime I tried ranging.

well unfortunately the american tanks simply didn't have rangefinders, you have to manually move the barrel up and down and use the markings to estimate the distance.
are you starting to understand why they say american tanks were so inferior to german and russian tanks?

 

[Sined]

Go for reality, but keep in mind the bogging and breakdown of T1's and t2's
many/most bridges couldnt hold their weight, most T1's broke down.

Many reports of crews grenading the motor after a breakdown .
But when they made it , the Tigers were feared for their indestructibility. Spot a tiger, take out its tracks and arty it if you can. otherwise keep clear of them.

As for Panthers ..reality



What Ro needs is "boggy soil"
inf ok, tanks (of certain types) risk higher breakdown=bogging
cos the way around a tiger was off the road way, where the tiger tenderly ventured.

I can feel the elation as a "team" defeat their first True Tiger.
and the Tiger crews happy and busy painting rings on their barrels after each round

but thats my opinion

 

[Nagels]

well unfortunately the american tanks simply didn't have rangefinders, you have to manually move the barrel up and down and use the markings to estimate the distance.
are you starting to understand why they say american tanks were so inferior to german and russian tanks?

Praytell are you a patron of DH as well as one of the leads schutze?.....because your post certainly comes across as patronising

 

[Madeyes]

Don't think he's being patronising Nagels. Alot of people don't really get the difference between the Axis & Allies tanks & how inferior they really were. Had it not been for sabotage during manufacture, fuels supplies, Allied air supremacy & bad workmanship from Captured workers then the Axis tanks would have been virtually unchallanged unless the were bogged down or trackless. The range finder lacking in the Shermans gave them a huge disadvantage against the more accurate Axis tanks. Add to this the firepower over that long range & it's Tommy cooker time again.
Cheers.
Rob

 

[Nagels]

Which given the absence of all you've mentioned ingame the mod would need as much tweaking as possible Mad.

Think about it, the entire setup is fully advantageous to the Axis tanks as it stands.
The most logical progressive idea would be to tweak within the parameters of the game as can be applied.

So, try giving some ingame advantages to the Allied tanks......workable optics would be a help for concealed long range shots, we're unlikely to see the end results of infactory sabotage/boggy terrain and Mustangs roaming the skies

 

[SchutzeSepp]

lol i had no intention to be patronising, the only way we can balance is through the maps. it's true that up to now DH is centered towards infantry and combined arms. but on our tankmaps we gave the allies 20 to 40% more tanks than the germans. the problem is that for the advantage of numbers to work, the server must be nearly full. and the number advantage will only work if it is taken in account by the allied tankers that if they don't work together, then they lose the advantage. since when you go solo, it doesn't matter how many other tanks there are, you will still get owned.

Go for reality, but keep in mind the bogging and breakdown of T1's and t2's
many/most bridges couldnt hold their weight, most T1's broke down.
...
What Ro needs is "boggy soil"
inf ok, tanks (of certain types) risk higher breakdown=bogging
cos the way around a tiger was off the road way, where the tiger tenderly ventured.

I can feel the elation as a "team" defeat their first True Tiger.
and the Tiger crews happy and busy painting rings on their barrels after each round

but thats my opinion

tigers, and especially the tigerII had verry wide tracks, so it's weight distribution per square centimeter was about the same as the pressure a footsoldier would apply on the same surface. so it was way more common to see shermans getting stuck in the mud.

and even if tigers broke down alot, it was extremely rare to see one break down during a battle. mainly because the crew would not go to battle if there was any sign of possible breakdown, and because they required astronomic hours of regular maintenance. so it was not rare to see that units equipped with kingtigers, would at any time have at least 40 to 60% of their kingtigers at the workshop for maintenance or repair.

the reason why the tigerII faired poorly, was because it was nearly always used in the wrong way, at the wrong time in the wrong place. because most of them were used in offensive operations and in areas with poor visibility. while it was made for long range defensive fighting.