T60 is getting on my nerves

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Drude

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Mar 1, 2006
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Finland, Helsinki
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as ramm said in steam forum: "[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica] Finding a couple of instances where odd things happen does not mean the whole system is flawed."

The only thing that I have seen often is KwK 88 being ineffective.
All other issues have been rare. T60 is not superior in my experiences.


[/FONT]
 

Helmut_AUT

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 14, 2005
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BoltActionJackson said:
Well from what I gather the research findings of TW are not in total agreement with that of the team who created CMBB. I could be wrong but that is what it seems like to me. It seems obvious that you guys take CMBB as the bible of WWII tanks and you are entitled to that take.
While I belive that the CMBB team did a damn lot of research and a very detailed armor calculation model (much more detailed than RO), for this case I don't even need to reference them.

I found three different sources in the internet talking about the 20mm gun on the T60, and the T60 themself - and all of them say it was crap. Heck, if you read the quote I provided, even a contemporary russian tank commander said "it was useless against german tanks".
 

Oberst Freitag

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Feb 19, 2006
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BoltActionJackson said:
Well from what I gather the research findings of TW are not in total agreement with that of the team who created CMBB. I could be wrong but that is what it seems like to me. It seems obvious that you guys take CMBB as the bible of WWII tanks and you are entitled to that take. I'm not going to argue with you about it. I'm also not going to argue with a WWII historian like Alan Wilson(Wilsonam) either. You can check the sources they used in making the game and maybe compare with what the CMBB team used. The list of sources are here: http://www.redorchestragame.com/index.php?categoryid=3&p13_sectionid=5&p13_fileid=19

It may also be important to take note of what Alan has to say in this post here: http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?p=74900#post74900
you dont need to use CMBB for your example...just look at google for penetration charts for the various guns and how much armor is present on the tanks...
 

BoltActionJackson

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 20, 2006
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So you guys don't need to read any of TripWire's reasonings and research findings because of info you found on the internet?:rolleyes:

Did either of you read the second post I linked to where Alan is talking about empirical tables, tanker memoirs, etc.?
 

raydude

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 5, 2006
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quote from [RO]Wilsonam
5. There is no such thing as "guaranteed" penetration at any range... empirical data has the Panther's 7.5cm KwK/StuK 42 L/70 penetrating nearly 200mm of armour at 30 degrees at 100 metres - but the round still failing 30% of the time.
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This statement is true and born out by the fact that not every shot by a Panther resulted in a penetration. If that were the case then the myth of German armor would be even greater than it is now, and Allied tank losses would be even greater than they are now.

The truth is that metallurgy is not an exact science. The properties of metal are such that one cannot say with 100% guarantee that shell A is going to have the exact same characteristics as shell B. Or that metallic plate A is going to have the exact same properties as metallic plate B.

That's why you have terms like fatigue, expected lifecycle, etc. Ex. Plane exteriors get checked every X miles. Not because X is the exact time of failure, but because statistically there is a number of miles before metal starts fatiguing. Then one applies a safety factor (or fudge factor) to "make sure" that a plane gets retired before it breaks. And even then we've had past failures because of an previously unforseen effect of the environment on metal.

Then factor in environmental factors and human factors. Point being - virtually every single game that simulates armored warfare has the equivalent of "rolling dice" at least twice. You roll once to see if you hit. Then you roll again to see if you penetrate. Every single game has this. Even CMBB. Even at ranges where you'd think that penetration would be guaranteed.
 

Helmut_AUT

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 14, 2005
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BoltActionJackson said:
So you guys don't need to read any of TripWire's reasonings and research findings because of info you found on the internet?:rolleyes:

Did either of you read the second post I linked to where Alan is talking about empirical tables, tanker memoirs, etc.?

Look, we do not need to make this any more complicated than necessary. A subsonic shell will not usually pierce an armor plate twice it's calibre. No matter what metal used for core. 20mm against 50mm armor plate doesn't match at all. Wilsonan can say he used classified sources and talk down tables, tanker memorys etc., this is basic stuff you can not simple talk away.

Likewise, a shell shouldn't have problems piercing a steel plate half it's calibre. 50mm shot should not bounce off the 25mm T60 turret.

This is simple really.

And like has been said - if these results and research were accurate, where are all the reports of the amazingly unstopable T-60 attacks tearing apart PzIII and PzIV.
 

BoltActionJackson

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Mar 20, 2006
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Helmut_AUT said:
Look, we do not need to make this any more complicated than necessary. A subsonic shell will not usually pierce an armor plate twice it's calibre. No matter what metal used for core. 20mm against 50mm armor plate doesn't match at all. Wilsonan can say he used classified sources and talk down tables, tanker memorys etc., this is basic stuff you can not simple talk away.

Likewise, a shell shouldn't have problems piercing a steel plate half it's calibre. 50mm shot should not bounce off the 25mm T60 turret.

This is simple really.

And like has been said - if these results and research were accurate, where are all the reports of the amazingly unstopable T-60 attacks tearing apart PzIII and PzIV.

What I want to know is where is the amazingly unstoppable T-60 in RO? It isn't. I play as German on HedgeHog all the time and the T-60 is rarely a factor at all. You have to realize that if the German soldiers/tankers were a rag tag bunch like you find on RO servers at times then history would have been much different.
 

Helmut_AUT

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Dec 14, 2005
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BoltActionJackson said:
What I want to know is where is the amazingly unstoppable T-60 in RO? It isn't. I play as German on HedgeHog all the time and the T-60 is rarely a factor at all.

The reason it isn't a factor is because too many guys know how to use a Panzerfaust. But lets play a few rounds as german TANKER on hedgehog and see how far you get.

Like I wrote, in a single evening I was killed about 10 times from that thing. 4 or 6 times out of those, I actually placed the first hit on him. It never mattered - the T60 gunner could always turn around, shoot the PzIII 4 or 5 times and it would explode.
 

Jack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 24, 2005
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Yes, no need to change the subject on TW's research methods.


Research is not the problem here! It's implementation!



I have no doubt Alan did his armor research, but having a list of consulted sources a mile long does not change the fact that 20mm are piercing 50mm of quality, homogenous plate (even when angled!). It's a moot point.


As someone said, you don't just have to look at CMBB (although they have more thoroughly focused on armor than RO, and also have more experience, with several games doing these calculations, and finally, they have an engine made from the get go to simulate this, not a FPS engine-turned-would-be armor simulator) we have the example of WWII armor combat itself, and no where does the historical outcomes match what is currently happening in-game.



I know this much about tje TW guys, since they were the same in the mod: they are slow to admit to inconsistencies in their game.


At first no one acknowledged anything was strange with armor penetration, then they stated there might be a frew "rare instances," and most recently, Alan said in the coming month they will "recheck" teh armor calculation system. So slowly, they are realizing something isn't right.


It's simple logic. You just don't get tons of people coming forward with similar observations and then discount all of them as wrong or just an example of a couple "rare instances." I mean how many will it take for it to stop being considered "rare?" Like the entire community?
 

Jack

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Nov 24, 2005
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BoltActionJackson said:
So you guys don't need to read any of TripWire's reasonings and research findings because of info you found on the internet?:rolleyes:

Did either of you read the second post I linked to where Alan is talking about empirical tables, tanker memoirs, etc.?


In this case then, I want Alan to come in here, look us in the eye (lol) and honestly tell us that "Yes, we reasoned through our research that the T-60 could easily and consistently penetrate the MkIII from any aspect."


Anything short of that, and that means he is conceding (correctly) that teh T-60 had no such ability, which means that somethign is wrong, no matter how long we listen to his take on memoirs and armor tables.
 

BoltActionJackson

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Mar 20, 2006
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Jack, I appreciate your responses and view. For me, I'm not seeing the T60 dominate on HH whether there are pazerfaust or not. Just last night I played in a couple of games of HH and our(German) tankers were doing great. If what you state is a fact and that is happening all the time, I too would like to hear what Alan has to say about it. Now if it is something that occurs and shouldn't then I'm sure it will be fixed in a patch. In the first week ROOST was out the T60 seemed to be a monster but lately I haven't seen it being that big of a factor. It could be that I get lucky and we have a better team most of the time I've been on HH.
 

Phoenix-D

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Feb 28, 2006
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I've used the T-60 a lot, on both maps that have it. Most of my deaths are from infantry- the tanks hit me once, fail to kill me, then I turn the turret and hose them down, destroying them before they can reload.
 

Jack

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Nov 24, 2005
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Yes BoltAction, I think individual experiences vary.



If you want to see the T-60's overpowered gun, just join a game with a friend and do a test. Have him drive the T-60 up to you while you sit in your MK III, and watch as your health indicator goes from white to red after about 10 hits and then you explode.
 

LemoN

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 26, 2006
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Prussotroll's Bridge
the T60 isnt really a big problem on most maps
because there are plenty of supportweapons as panzerfausts
the stug nearly allways kills the T60 with one hit
BUUUUUUUUTTTT!
1: it penetrates things it shouldnt
2: it deflects kwk 7.5cm/L48 round on the front TURRET plate wich is 90
 

Perk

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Mar 15, 2006
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The bigest problem is still the lack of more damage "zones" inside the tanks. A 50mm shell penetrating ANYWHERE on a T-60 is going to hit SOMETHING vulnerable. Have you seen how cramped the T-60 is?

Even if it somehow miraculously misses the ammo storage, or the GASOLINE - not diesel, it's bound to kill the crew, who are packed in like sardines.

Not to mention that 25mm of armor is going to be completely overmatched by a 50mm shell. Even assuming best possible case, a round more than twice the diameter of the plate thickness is going to cause massive spalling - again killing or wounding the packed in crew.

So far this is my biggest disapointment with RO - there is no way to kill the crew inside a buttoned tank without completely destroying the tank...
 

Helmut_AUT

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Dec 14, 2005
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Phoenix-D said:
I've used the T-60 a lot, on both maps that have it. Most of my deaths are from infantry- the tanks hit me once, fail to kill me, then I turn the turret and hose them down, destroying them before they can reload.

Exactly my experience on Hedgehog - and that about 10 times in a single evening. We're not talking about "rare" here.
 

Theodrake

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Mar 21, 2006
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Perk said:
So far this is my biggest disapointment with RO - there is no way to kill the crew inside a buttoned tank without completely destroying the tank...

This just isn't true. I was the driver of a PzIII, buttoned up and I was killed. I was pissed, figured the tank had been destroyed. Then I noticed that my crewmate had not been killed nor had the tank???

Unless this is a bug, I have been killed and the tank wasn't destroyed.
 

Jack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 24, 2005
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You probably experienced the "belly plate exploit," where a hand grenade can damage teh tank and kill crew so long as it is thrown under the tank. Just another thing in the armor system that needs to be fixed.
 

Harry S. Truman

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Mar 23, 2006
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Helmut_AUT said:
The reason it isn't a factor is because too many guys know how to use a Panzerfaust. But lets play a few rounds as german TANKER on hedgehog and see how far you get.

Like I wrote, in a single evening I was killed about 10 times from that thing. 4 or 6 times out of those, I actually placed the first hit on him. It never mattered - the T60 gunner could always turn around, shoot the PzIII 4 or 5 times and it would explode.

You people need to get a driver that knows what the hell he is doing. My buddy and I play that same panzer III and I usually own the T-60. If your driver keeps the angle correct...all you hears is "plink, plink, plink".

My biggest fear on that map is the Russians wielding panzerfausts...which in my opinion is a stupid problem in itself.

I'm kinda tired of maps with a couple of tanks having an unlimited supply of panzerfausts lying around. Russians with panzerfausts?
 

Theodrake

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Mar 21, 2006
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Harry S. Truman said:
You people need to get a driver that knows what the hell he is doing. My buddy and I play that same panzer III and I usually own the T-60. If your driver keeps the angle correct...all you hears is "plink, plink, plink".

My biggest fear on that map is the Russians wielding panzerfausts...which in my opinion is a stupid problem in itself.

I'm kinda tired of maps with a couple of tanks having an unlimited supply of panzerfausts lying around. Russians with panzerfausts?

Well I would really like to see this. The only time I was destroyed in the T-60 was when the P-III snuck up behind me or I was hit with a PF or the or idiot Ivan drove around like he was at a NASCAR track. I was killing the P-III so much they gave up even attempting to come near me. I just got in a nice position and was mowing down the Germans until I had to reload. If instead of sitting there reloading I had driven off they never would have got me.