T-34/85 and the Tiger I

[FatPartizan]

The sense to shoot to the Tiger in forehead is for 700 m . Not guaranteed penetration, but it is possible to risk.
For F-34 all is much worse. Shooting from distance 0 m 0 degrees not give the guaranteed of penetration. It could work on a tiger only after occurrence SABOT shell. Autumn 1944 not earlier. The distance is less than 500 meters.

By this time Germans already could study 85 mm gun. There can be it the report on the Tiger-2 or the prototype ?

 

[Letum]

Ok.

This is the result of a German test at Kummersdorf proving grounds with a captured T34/85 against a Tiger E.

Source: The Wehrmacht Weapons Testing Ground at Kummersdorf - Wolfgang Fleischer
http://www.amazon.com/Wehrmacht-Kumm...e=UTF8&s=books

Conclusion: The 85mm ZIS53 does no have the capability to penetrate the Tigers frontal armor at 500 meters. 100 meters is a possibility.

Before someone copies penetration charts off some website. Penetration charts do not take armor quality or ammunition quality into account. I know the 85mm claims to be able to penetrate 100mm of armor at 1000 meters, but this is against russian steel with an unknown quality and not the high quality armor of the Tiger.

I think we can say Letum got thoroughly pooned there.

Anyway to not be the one to derail the topic I'll be on-topic by saying i agree with the fact that t-34's shouldn't be able to do that.

I was not disagreeing, I just wanted to make a more informed decision.
Anyway, one report from one side about one lot of testing on one tanks at one particular point in the war says nothing about all the other thousands of tanks and variables. Round and armor quality being a good example, but not the only factor.

I still haven' made my mind up.

 

[Afterburner]

According to this http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/guns.html

The 85mm ZiS S-53 coudl penentrate 111mm of armor at 500m or 102 mm of armor at 1km. Most maps in this game it is pretyt much impossible to engage at over 1000m, and most of the time it is UNDER 500m. That means the T-34/85 shouldn't really have too much of a problem penentrating the Tiger unless the Tiger is angled or unless your taking a really long range shot. Using the optics in this game at about 1000m it becomes close to impossible to acually see the enemy tanks.

 

[BSE|Vietcong]

Would you mind posting the data on soviet tests done with Tigers?

I wasn't going into the "soviet steel was crap" arguement. I was stating the penetration charts do not mention the quality of armor they were used to test on and there is no way the soviets were testing on steel with a BHI of 255-260. Which you should know is the Tigers BHI. This does make the German tests with a real Tiger vs the 85mm more credible then an unkown BHI armor plate the soviets used.

Would you mid explaining what BHI is? I'm not yet that far in materials science

 

[FatPartizan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by D3terioNation
Umm Roost IS correct!

good joke ... you made my day

Real IS-2 was similar to the Panther only fat and very lazy . It all time was modernized in current of war.

The Soviet steel since winter 1941 till spring 1943, yes is rubbish.

 

[Afterburner]

Real IS-2 was similar to the Panther only fat and very lazy. It all time was modernized in current of war.

The Soviet steel since winter 1941 till spring 1943, yes is rubbish.

And the fact it could fire straight through the Panther from front to back... or blow the turret off with it's HE shell.(atleast that is what I've read)

 

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

Real IS-2 was similar to the Panther only fat and very lazy . It all time was modernized in current of war.

The Soviet steel since winter 1941 till spring 1943, yes is rubbish.

except that the IS2 and Panther have been designed for TOTALLY different roles. With the Panther, as a plane "Battle-tank" with the main focus on enemy tanks, and the IS2 as a heavy brake-through tank, mainly against enemy artillery (anti tank guns), fortifications and infantry. The fact that the 122m gun had a very heavy shell and high caliber, has gave him a good chance to fight against the modern german tanks (except King Tigers) even though when the gun and tank was not designed in the first place for that use. The panthers gun, was from the begining designed for a very high penetration but not even close to the same explosive damage from the IS2-gun. So was the panther, if i rember correct able with the Panzergranate 40 to penetrate near ANY soviet tank, on minimum 1000m and the IS2 with 600-700m.

ROO is far away from beeing "accurate". But that does not mean, that the game can not be enjoyed. Only that it is not a simulation.

 

[Sichartshofen]

Would you mid explaining what BHI is? I'm not yet that far in materials science

Brinell Hardness Index or Number is used. It is a measurement to determine the hardness of a material by useing a tungsten carbide sphere. The test is done by pressing the sphere with a 3 ton load and measuring the resulting depression. This is how the Germans determined the BHI of their armor.

The Tigers armor had a BHI of 255-260 which was the best of any tank in the war. The quality of the Tigers armor never changed, which was the reason for it being so costly and time consuming to produce.


A BHI of 100 is soft steel, like Sch

 

[FatPartizan]

And the fact it could fire straight through the Panther from front to back... or blow the turret off with it's HE shell.(atleast that is what I've read)

It is improbable, it could destruction of welds(?) , jam a tower, crash optics, wounds of crew by fragments of the armour, at late Panthers side sheets could burst. If you is lucky could detonate shells.
To bring down a turret at the tank it it is very heavy. It is easier to destroy it. It can be if the tank stands on a rough surface, is strongly inclined , gun under a unsuccessful corner. 152 mm HE in a reality could only move a turret of the Tiger from a foundation on some centimeters. Not always.

 

[Faustnik]

The biggest problem with the Tiger is rate of fire, not armor values.

 

[Sichartshofen]

And the fact it could fire straight through the Panther from front to back... or blow the turret off with it's HE shell.(atleast that is what I've read)

What you've read is non-sense. A Panther turret weighs several tonnes and is connected to the hull. 25-30 pound HE charge is not going to blow it right off.

 

[Faustnik]

What you've read is non-sense. A Panther turret weighs several tonnes and is connected to the hull. 25-30 pound HE charge is not going to blow it right off.

They were enough to crack weld seams, damage radio and optical equipment and injure crew members. Better not to get hit by them.

 

[Recce]

122mm D-25T looses accuracy after about 1000m but I haven't seen any 1000m+ maps yet so its not a problem.

The D-25T was more of a howizer. The problem in hitting a pin-point target, like a tank, is the drop in the round. It's far easier with a high velocity gun firing a flat trajectory. That and the quality of the optics An RO:OST dev did quote the drop at 1000m, but I can't remember what it was

Also does the Panzer III in ROOST use a 50mm Kw.K. 38 L/42 or 50mm Kw.K. 39 L/60 ?

It's quoted as being a PzIII Ausf L, so it should be the 39 L/60, and the barrels on the models look like are long enought.

What about on maps like Arad?

The T-34/85 was effective using the correct ammunition, on ROOST it uses AP which over 500m it would not penetrate.

You can find "test data" that agree with you, and "test data" that doesn't. I think that at 500m, the Tiger crew would have been in danger against a Russian 85mm gun firing APC rounds. But I have seen data (Russian source) that shows that the BR-365 AP performed better than the BR-365K APC against armour sloped at 30 to the vertical. Who too believe?

I think we can say Letum got throughly pooned there.

Not really. He's just asking for sources. There lots of different sources out there, and they say different things.

But what about the poor old Panther. It has thick, very well sloped front armour. A high velocity anti-tank round is going to be hitting that at at least a 55 degree angle. Unlike the Tiger.

 

[Afterburner]

What you've read is non-sense. A Panther turret weighs several tonnes and is connected to the hull. 25-30 pound HE charge is not going to blow it right off.

I don't mean blow off as in send flying into the air Battlefield 1942 style. I mean lift it up off the turret ring a few centimeters. Might be thinking of the SU-152 for that one though. I do know, however, that the IS-2 could easily penentrate both a Tiger and Panther at range.

 

[FatPartizan]

They were enough to crack weld seams, damage radio and optical equipment and injure crew members. Better not to get hit by them.

Problem in that the result is not predicted. A lottery.
The panther could catch 5 HE , and remain after that efficient.

 

[otester]

You can find "test data" that agree with you, and "test data" that doesn't. I think that at 500m, the Tiger crew would have been in danger against a Russian 85mm gun firing APC rounds. But I have seen data (Russian source) that shows that the BR-365 AP performed better than the BR-365K APC against armour sloped at 30 to the vertical. Who too believe?

Tiger I's 100mm is 10 to vertical.

I just want this to corrected, the russians/germans should also access to the other munitions.

The game encourages angling

Should encourage realism, isn't that what ROOST's MENT to be?

Also whoes making the realism mod(s) atm?