Swap default/alt-fire modes for AR-15

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OnionBubs

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EDIT: Oops. I meant for this to be in the Suggestions tab. Feel free to move it there if you'd prefer.

The game's been in EA since 2015 and there's still a glaring whatsit that should've been changed eons ago:

The AR-15/Varmint Rifle still starts out in the burst-fire mode by default, both when starting a fresh game and when buying a new one from the Trader. I still regularly see maxed out Commando players picking this first round, running it dry on single Clots in HoE, and honestly I'm not even sure they know how to turn it off, so this would be a net boost to them (however much that counts for).

And to top it off, the Varmint has arguably the most useless burst-fire mode of all the weapons in the game, so having it on by default really doesn't help anyone.

Call it a QoL or whatever but it would be nice to have from the perspective of a Commando main; that's one less thing I have to click off each game (and each time I drain the rifle and re-buy it from scratch to "refill" it).
 
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o2xVc3UuXp0NyBihrUnu

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Yes.

Along these lines, SG500 should have more spare ammo round 1 (because penetration isn't as nearly useful as they thought it would be).

Also, burst fire is useless on every weapon in the game except AK-12.
 

Aleflippy

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Yes.

Along these lines, SG500 should have more spare ammo round 1 (because penetration isn't as nearly useful as they thought it would be).

Also, burst fire is useless on every weapon in the game except AK-12.
It's okay on the FAMAS too, not that you have a choice... 👀

The SG-500 mostly sucks when you're on lower levels. Once you have a decent Support, it begins to be totally okay even at Wave 1.

As for Onion's proposal... Well, you can still turn it off in the mere click of a button. I pretty much never use it except when **** hits the fan (tougher zeds, or a big group I have no time to kill by carefully aiming for their head), but it's good to have the choice.
 

o2xVc3UuXp0NyBihrUnu

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It's okay on the FAMAS too, not that you have a choice... 👀

That's the thing and it shows how detached the game designers are from actually using their product, which is playing the game, because nobody needs 3 rounds for a job of just 1, but they never thought about it. What they were even thinking? That their commando players just body spam everything with burst fire and waste all ammo? Have they forgotten that the game was supposed to encourage careful headshotting instead so one doesn't run out of ammo?

The SG-500 mostly sucks when you're on lower levels. Once you have a decent Support, it begins to be totally okay even at Wave 1.

It sucks regardless. I haven't played underlevelled support in years but it's still often the case that I run out of ammo wave 1, just because they overestimated how useful the penetration is going to be. Alas, it's not as useful, primarily because of their own decision not to put as many monsters on the map as initially planned, if they went with higher numbers that would have resulted in higher penetration benefits as there would have been tons of clots everywhere, but then they learned that they made them too fast and too aggressive as compared to KF1 so too high numbers were deemed untenable so they went down to as low as just 12 maxmonsters for a solo game. There's just not much to penetrate with that number. This same issue is a root problem of a SWAT, a perk with no clear job, as per SWAT's weapons damage modifiers it's clear they wanted it to be a dedicated anti-clot specialist, but too bad, the game never throws too many clots at you to the point that an SS can handle it with either 9mm or winchester.

Another issue that contributes to that is they made it so that all zeds have a random speed component, so no 2 clots are equal, therefore, when charging, they inevitably bypass each other, which results in them almost never lining up, but instead approaching as a front, unless they are constrained in doing so by a very narrow map corridor, which are rare, with containment station being almost the only map where every support can hope to score a few clots per shot. Good luck with that on maps like burning paris.

SG500 is so bad to the point when cohesive teams always go out of their way to ensure that support gives his shotty at the beginning of the round to someone else so that someone can charge its ammo capacity a bit with the help of the resupply pack skill and give it back so the support doesn't run out of ammo prematurely.

Which would not be a problem if the starting ammo capacity was at least 1.5 higher.
 

Aleflippy

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That's the thing and it shows how detached the game designers are from actually using their product, which is playing the game, because nobody needs 3 rounds for a job of just 1, but they never thought about it. What they were even thinking? That their commando players just body spam everything with burst fire and waste all ammo? Have they forgotten that the game was supposed to encourage careful headshotting instead so one doesn't run out of ammo?



It sucks regardless. I haven't played underlevelled support in years but it's still often the case that I run out of ammo wave 1, just because they overestimated how useful the penetration is going to be. Alas, it's not as useful, primarily because of their own decision not to put as many monsters on the map as initially planned, if they went with higher numbers that would have resulted in higher penetration benefits as there would have been tons of clots everywhere, but then they learned that they made them too fast and too aggressive as compared to KF1 so too high numbers were deemed untenable so they went down to as low as just 12 maxmonsters for a solo game. There's just not much to penetrate with that number. This same issue is a root problem of a SWAT, a perk with no clear job, as per SWAT's weapons damage modifiers it's clear they wanted it to be a dedicated anti-clot specialist, but too bad, the game never throws too many clots at you to the point that an SS can handle it with either 9mm or winchester.

Another issue that contributes to that is they made it so that all zeds have a random speed component, so no 2 clots are equal, therefore, when charging, they inevitably bypass each other, which results in them almost never lining up, but instead approaching as a front, unless they are constrained in doing so by a very narrow map corridor, which are rare, with containment station being almost the only map where every support can hope to score a few clots per shot. Good luck with that on maps like burning paris.

SG500 is so bad to the point when cohesive teams always go out of their way to ensure that support gives his shotty at the beginning of the round to someone else so that someone can charge its ammo capacity a bit with the help of the resupply pack skill and give it back so the support doesn't run out of ammo prematurely.

Which would not be a problem if the starting ammo capacity was at least 1.5 higher.

But why? It's already a gun that allows you to ANNIHILATE nearly anything at close range with its underslung shotgun. It's burst-fire is also pretty quick, allowing you to clear waves of trash zeds and decap bigger ones reliably too, even at range. Just like the AR-15, I almost consider it more like a marksman rifle than a pure assault rifle. And it's a good thing ! It changes the meta in a meaningful way, without feeling forced or out of place. Maybe that's not saying a whole lot, but it's one of the best DLC weapons so far IMO. Not every gun needs to be efficient against everything. And considering the 'mando is already one of the most versatile perk of the roster, it's great to have a more specialized weapon. Believe me, it still incites you to aim for the head... Killing a raging Scrake in half a mag by shooting everything in its head will make for quick and easy work. It's just overkill against trash, but you can also pop-up your old AR-15 if you kept it, or try to fire the shotgun at 2-3 zeds at once !

It's still a mystery why it's crossperked with the Support though. It's insanely good, but it's really just a one-shot shotgun under an assault rifle... It's as silly as giving the Frost Fang to the zerk just because it has a bayonet (while the Mosin-Nagant is sharpshooter only, WHAT)

///

Eh... have you ever played as or with a SWAT? It's clearly one of the best trash cleaner in the game. No need to have legions of clots to prove that. Actually, anything outsides FleshPounds are mere bullet bait for him. I don't know what you usually play, but you mentioned a sharpshooter : I'm sure you came across more than one situation where you were more than a happy to have a SWAT clear out crawlers for you while you aim for a Scrake. Not to mention the SWAT is tanky AND can stun and stumble reliably. If you don't see what's so great about that, I'm sorry to say you might have understood nothing of the game so far.

You also make penetration seem like a big deal, when it's only truly useful for a gun like the Boomstick which has a very small range AND mag size. There, killing at least two clots (ideally three or even four) is indeed important AND rewarding. But the SG-500 is a T1 gun... Give it some slack. At least it can one-shot most early zeds fairly reliably. And with decent range for its class too. I mostly play Suicidal so I don't know in HoE, but it's honestly not that hard to line up a couple zeds by moving a little. I never had trouble killing more than one zed with a single slug. What's the solution? Making every map a big corridor? That's obviously not what they had in mind, considering you have to be more mobile in KF2 (while the main strategy in KF1 was to find the most defendable spot and camp there forever)

I mean, I often run out of ammo with the Demo and SWAT too and I don't make a big deal out of it. That's what the 9mm is for. In fact, it's an equally common tactic to use it as much as possible in wave 1 especially to save some ammo (and instead buy armor) for wave 2.
 

o2xVc3UuXp0NyBihrUnu

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But why? It's already a gun that allows you to ANNIHILATE nearly anything at close range with its underslung shotgun. It's burst-fire is also pretty quick, allowing you to clear waves of trash zeds and decap bigger ones reliably too, even at range. Just like the AR-15, I almost consider it more like a marksman rifle than a pure assault rifle. And it's a good thing ! It changes the meta in a meaningful way, without feeling forced or out of place. Maybe that's not saying a whole lot, but it's one of the best DLC weapons so far IMO. Not every gun needs to be efficient against everything. And considering the 'mando is already one of the most versatile perk of the roster, it's great to have a more specialized weapon. Believe me, it still incites you to aim for the head... Killing a raging Scrake in half a mag by shooting everything in its head will make for quick and easy work. It's just overkill against trash, but you can also pop-up your old AR-15 if you kept it, or try to fire the shotgun at 2-3 zeds at once !

Not my plan to hijack the thread with ramblings about SWAT or damage types or other things that provide context for this thing.

The game clearly encourages players to land headshots in most cases.

1) HS health is lower than body health for every monster with a few quirks here and there.
2) for almost any trash zed any mando's weapon is in position to kill it with just 1 round to the head.
3) if one resorts to body shooting even sometimes, one runs out of ammo and/or ruins his economy to the point he can't buy better guns for later waves, wasting instead everything on ammo for lower tier guns.
4) it's harder to land headshots because of a) head bobbing b) not always predictable pathing/zeds passing each other/stumbling etc c) weapon bobbing

All that provides shooting depth to this game which can't always be exhausted even after a few thousand hours put.

So it's clear that the best and cleanest way to play it is to put only as many bullets as needed to kill a zed, which, for most trash for most perks means just 1 bullet to the head. That's how the game was designed. That was the plan. If one doesn't stick to it he plays suboptimally, which is punished by the game, which is felt the most on higher difficulties. The principle of resource economy -- kill most with least resources spent on it, including time, ammo, movement, etc. And this is a good game mechanic touch.

Now fast forward a few years. Most people who worked on the game mechanic left the company. People whose names I read in the code work somewhere else. Andrew Ladenberger, etc. Then they backstab and fire John Gibson for agreeing with some controversial supreme court of the US decision. They introduce a new weapon. This weapon, by design, fires 3 bullets min, when almost any trash zed needs just 1 to the head (not mentioning all other problems with the gun).

Goes against the principle of resource economy, no?
 

Aleflippy

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Not my plan to hijack the thread with ramblings about SWAT or damage types or other things that provide context for this thing.

The game clearly encourages players to land headshots in most cases.

1) HS health is lower than body health for every monster with a few quirks here and there.
2) for almost any trash zed any mando's weapon is in position to kill it with just 1 round to the head.
3) if one resorts to body shooting even sometimes, one runs out of ammo and/or ruins his economy to the point he can't buy better guns for later waves, wasting instead everything on ammo for lower tier guns.
4) it's harder to land headshots because of a) head bobbing b) not always predictable pathing/zeds passing each other/stumbling etc c) weapon bobbing

All that provides shooting depth to this game which can't always be exhausted even after a few thousand hours put.

So it's clear that the best and cleanest way to play it is to put only as many bullets as needed to kill a zed, which, for most trash for most perks means just 1 bullet to the head. That's how the game was designed. That was the plan. If one doesn't stick to it he plays suboptimally, which is punished by the game, which is felt the most on higher difficulties. The principle of resource economy -- kill most with least resources spent on it, including time, ammo, movement, etc. And this is a good game mechanic touch.

Now fast forward a few years. Most people who worked on the game mechanic left the company. People whose names I read in the code work somewhere else. Andrew Ladenberger, etc. Then they backstab and fire John Gibson for agreeing with some controversial supreme court of the US decision. They introduce a new weapon. This weapon, by design, fires 3 bullets min, when almost any trash zed needs just 1 to the head (not mentioning all other problems with the gun).

Goes against the principle of resource economy, no?

Honestly I already wanted to walk away as soon as you mentioned John Gibson being "betrayed", but for the sake of it, I'll say two very simple things :

1) It's just a game, not a competition.

2) Zerk, Firebug, Demo are all suboptimal perks in that case, right?
 

o2xVc3UuXp0NyBihrUnu

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1) It's just a game, not a competition.
Yet, somehow, pretty much everyone agrees that it's better to play it optimally, than not. Pretty much everyone agrees that it's okay to kick players who put the team in danger by playing it suboptimally, such as bottomfragging, using off perk weapons and not landing shots in general. Pretty much everyone agrees that players are supposed to kill zeds instead of shooting in the sky. All that happens for a reason, no?

2) Zerk, Firebug, Demo are all suboptimal perks in that case, right?
Haha, no. Demo, for example, is a precision perk, literally 2 out of 5 skill choices reward precision shooting and are always taken by proficient demos for faster scrake takedowns and they indeed always aim either for the fleshpound head or leg to knock them down so they don't rage immediately. Half of FB weapons reward precision shooting and it's a must for taking down big zeds in any reasonable time. And of course, zerk needs to headshot big zeds to take them down in reasonable time.
 

Aleflippy

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Yet, somehow, pretty much everyone agrees that it's better to play it optimally, than not. Pretty much everyone agrees that it's okay to kick players who put the team in danger by playing it suboptimally, such as bottomfragging, using off perk weapons and not landing shots in general. Pretty much everyone agrees that players are supposed to kill zeds instead of shooting in the sky. All that happens for a reason, no?


Haha, no. Demo, for example, is a precision perk, literally 2 out of 5 skill choices reward precision shooting and are always taken by proficient demos for faster scrake takedowns and they indeed always aim either for the fleshpound head or leg to knock them down so they don't rage immediately. Half of FB weapons reward precision shooting and it's a must for taking down big zeds in any reasonable time. And of course, zerk needs to headshot big zeds to take them down in reasonable time.
There's still a difference between missing all your shots and firing one shot into a zed dead body by mistake. It's really not a big deal if you miss one shot because a slasher rolled as you fired. You're really making it seem as if you played in a high-stakes competition, while honestly... It's just a game, and a seven years old one at that.

As a poor sniper, I had to train myself a lot to learn how to headshot reliably. So I agree that it's fully part of the meta and every player trying to enjoy the game a bit more seriously should strive to aim for the head as much as possible. But you're really making it feel as if wasting a couple of bullets is the end of the world. Spoiler alert : it is not. Unless you had to take down that pesky fleshpound with a railgun/RPG-7
 

o2xVc3UuXp0NyBihrUnu

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There's still a difference between missing all your shots and firing one shot into a zed dead body by mistake.
Yes, but missing 2/3 of your shots just because of a poor weapon design (at least for AR-15 one can switch to semi-auto and avoid the problem, not so for FAMAS) is painful enough. And for no good reason!

But you're really making it feel as if wasting a couple of bullets is the end of the world. Spoiler alert : it is not.

Again, it's not a yes/no or black/white situation like in the end of the world or not end of the world situation. It's a spectrum of optimality. Some choices a player can make don't affect it much and therefore argually acceptable, such as, for example, a choice to play with the Stoner gun as commando. Suboptimal but acceptable, it's unlikely to make a win/loss difference. But choosing FAMAS and missing 2/3 of your shots could very well be a choice that makes the difference between a win and a loss on higher difficulties. For no good reason.
 

Kittenmittens

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That's an interesting suggestion. Never seen it as an issue before since if I want to conserver ammo and not use the burst fire on the AR15 on trash zeds I quick press the switch button or better yet use my knife or 9mm.
 

OnionBubs

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That's an interesting suggestion. Never seen it as an issue before since if I want to conserver ammo and not use the burst fire on the AR15 on trash zeds I quick press the switch button or better yet use my knife or 9mm.
I am a little late getting back to this, but that's my whole point: unlike other guns, there is never an actual reason to use the burst-fire on this gun. It shoots just as fast if you can tap quickly, but without guaranteeing burning three shots on a single Clot or Crawler. As far as I can tell it doesn't make a difference in spread or anything of that nature, like with the MP5.

Yet it starts on burst-fire even though the burst-fire has no real purpose on the gun. So just removing the extra click would be nice to have.
 
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