Suppression effects in HOS?

[VariousNames]

You hate it cuz it stops you to just pop up and shoot that mg firing at you.
i think that DH suppression effect is a good solution to simulate the fear of the MG's in the fierce of the battle. In real life u cant just pop up and one shot the MG crew, DH effect is closer to reality than nothing imo.

I personally hate it because it allows an MG crew.....or even an assault trooper with a submachine gun at 200 yards to spray and pray roughly in somebody's general direction and cause them to flinch uncontrollable, like somebody with Parkinsons disease.

If you think that's realistic, cool, but I don't find that it's conducive to good gameplay.

 

[Pvt.Skoko]

The new vids show very minimal suppression affect although suppression is mentioned in the presentation.

 

[Zetsumei]

I personally hate it because it allows an MG crew.....or even an assault trooper with a submachine gun at 200 yards to spray and pray roughly in somebody's general direction and cause them to flinch uncontrollable, like somebody with Parkinsons disease.

If you think that's realistic, cool, but I don't find that it's conducive to good gameplay.

You're overreacting on how severe the actual suppression is there

 

[REZ]

He isnt really.. and I've given this example before of coming around a corner and finding myself face to face with a sub-machine gunner; we simultaneously begin to spray at each other and all of a sudden you're pointing at the sky because of the suppression flinching.

Bottom line is.. just because some bullets are coming near you shouldnt mean you CANT accurately fire back, that's totally wrong. It's either there and totally restricting while taking fire, or it isnt there at all and the effects are just cosmetic. An actual uncontrollable flinching mechanic would have a bunch of guys cowering behind cover as long as someone fires near them.. I could see it now.. just keep firing, dont worry about aiming, we'll run right at them cause they cant do anything because of the suppression effect.

Honestly, and this is going to sound elitist, but I think the real reason people want to hinder the way other people play by rendering them useless through artificial and totally fake suppression mechanics is because they've reached their own personal skill maximum and cant stand being bested... so they want to hinder those that are better by reducing them to quivering useless broken opponents just by firing next to them..

The argument that supprssion effects are wanted so 'real' tactics can play out is 'bs' in my opinion. The reason I think it's bs is because real suppression happens within the player and not his avatar. It's no excuse to add a punishing system just to create the actions you want out of everyone else. It would cripple the gameplay RO is known for.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I personally hate it because it allows an MG crew.....or even an assault trooper with a submachine gun at 200 yards to spray and pray roughly in somebody's general direction and cause them to flinch uncontrollable, like somebody with Parkinsons disease.

If you think that's realistic, cool, but I don't find that it's conducive to good gameplay.

If it is accurate fire, then yes as it should be. But blindly firing, spraying and praying? I know in DH I have never been subject to suppression effects being in the "general direction of someone spraying and praying" at any distance.

 

[Erich]

The new vids show very minimal suppression affect although suppression is mentioned in the presentation.

Yeah I was actually very disappointed with the effects in the new game. It seems like its just a sound and the color turning brown and maybe a little blur. I also notice that when he go from crouch to standing while in Iron Sites, they are always perfectly aligned.

 

[Erich]

He isnt really.. and I've given this example before of coming around a corner and finding myself face to face with a sub-machine gunner; we simultaneously begin to spray at each other and all of a sudden you're pointing at the sky because of the suppression flinching.

Bottom line is.. just because some bullets are coming near you shouldnt mean you CANT accurately fire back, that's totally wrong. It's either there and totally restricting while taking fire, or it isnt there at all and the effects are just cosmetic. An actual uncontrollable flinching mechanic would have a bunch of guys cowering behind cover as long as someone fires near them.. I could see it now.. just keep firing, dont worry about aiming, we'll run right at them cause they cant do anything because of the suppression effect.

Honestly, and this is going to sound elitist, but I think the real reason people want to hinder the way other people play by rendering them useless through artificial and totally fake suppression mechanics is because they've reached their own personal skill maximum and cant stand being bested... so they want to hinder those that are better by reducing them to quivering useless broken opponents just by firing next to them..

The argument that supprssion effects are wanted so 'real' tactics can play out is 'bs' in my opinion. The reason I think it's bs is because real suppression happens within the player and not his avatar. It's no excuse to add a punishing system just to create the actions you want out of everyone else. It would cripple the gameplay RO is known for.

Yeah because that is how DH plays out.

Honetly, and this is going to sound elitist, but I think the real reason people hate the DH style (flinching) of suppression is because they view themselves as uber soldiers who only want to rely on their reaction skills to kill instead of also having to use their brains and team work to adapt and overcome the situation. They want to feel like an action star.

In reality here, no one is saying implement a direct port of the DH system. It needs to be refined and toned down some, but the stock RO effects do not encourage realistic play. It is worrisome that people who demand such realism in the game also spit and shout at an idea that helps takes all the realism and implements it to help create a realistic flow of the battle.

 

[REZ]

who only want to rely on their reaction skills to kill

You're absolutely right man. I use all the information gathered through what I see on the screen, what I hear through my headphones, and the information coming from my teamates, process it through my brain, and come up with a solution in real time. I already suppress myself because I'm more of an asset alive than dead. Hard to understand? I dont think so. Nowhere therein is it necessary for my avatar to flinch about because bullets are coming near him.

If a soldier, in real life, was aiming down range and a bullet passed by him, his gun would not involuntarily - as though possessed - jump about and make it impossible for him to accurately fire back. Sorry guy, but it doesnt happen like that; he may take cover, but his gun doesnt flip-out magically... He'd still be able to aim his return fire accurately if he chose to.

This is a game with reinforcements where the player is allowed to determine the value of each individual life; the gameplay you're looking for will be found in the new Countdown gametype where eveyone has only one life - they should leave the tried and true RO mechanics alone. A suppression mechanic which takes away your ability to control your avatar and/or your ability to return fire accurately, even for a split second, is fake, punishing and unacceptable.

Feel like an action star? Nope, more like in control of my avatar at all times. Realistic flow of battle? Yeah, I'm buying that.. coming from you and all your experience in battle (olol?). I wouldnt worry yourself about those who want realism when you're lobbying for a false mechanic meant to make others play the way you want them to.

 

[Zetsumei]

Can we perhaps continue this discussion without personally attacking each other ?

Again the goal for me is to make the fundamental basis of the infantry tactical manuals work. And everybody here would prefer that to be done without taking away control of the player. However after everything has been done to make it work without taking away control. Then going on the next step of trading in some control is justified in my opinion because of the importance of suppression.

Its that last part that we're disagreeing about, but its not like we want to take away control because we are masochistic or something.

 

[REZ]

But thats a pipe dream man. Sorry to rain on your parade, but it's a game and it will never play out on public servers like you read in infantry tactical manuals... even with your suppression mechanics.

With your clan, or realism outfit, sure.. you place those restrictions on yourself... but literally taking away control of the avatar from the player is going wayyy too far. I dont think everyone here wants to do it without taking control away.. some of them actually think this DH suppression is realistic and if they could they'd have it that way in RO; and it's all based upon them wanting other people to play the game the way they want them to! It's ridiculous.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Tempted to...

But what Zets said

 

[Fedorov]

I'll go with what REZ said then =P

:IS2:

 

[Zetsumei]

But thats a pipe dream man. Sorry to rain on your parade, but it's a game and it will never play out on public servers like you read in infantry tactical manuals... even with your suppression mechanics.

It works 100% in DH so it's not a pipe dream. In DH it works perhaps even too much. So its in my opinion about finding the optimum between current RO and DH. I don't expect the game to play out like infantry tactical manuals, but I expect the basics of military tactics to work like they do work in DH.

But we've been talking like what 4 pages full already, I think its time to leave it for the devs to decide.

 

[Erich]

Feel like an action star? Nope, more like in control of my avatar at all times. Realistic flow of battle? Yeah, I'm buying that.. coming from you and all your experience in battle (olol?). I wouldnt worry yourself about those who want realism when you're lobbying for a false mechanic meant to make others play the way you want them to.

Careful calling people out about their military experience on an internet forum. Not everyone just likes to play soldier, some actually are.


I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it. I don't mind little mechanics that slightly take control away from me. Its a game trying to be based in reality but you can not always do that to some degree without "faking" some parts of real life. It's not like I am asking for my avatar to freak out, pick up and run the other direction without any input from me. I just know that subconsciously people react to fire, they flinch and try to get somewhere safe. And trust me when a round flies over your head it is real loud and makes you nervous and screws with your ability. Currently the RO system fails to model to the slightest degree what it is like to get shot at.

 

[LemoN]

By the looks of it there is no noticeable suppression in HoS.

 

[REZ]

Zets, you're talking to me here.. you know I've actually played a good amount of DH, right? 100%? I think you're a lot smarter than to use a figure like 100%.

In my experience, it doesnt make me (and plenty of others I've noticed through simple observation) take cover any more than being shot at in regular RO. All it does is make it so I cant return fire accurately if enough bullets come close.

Erich, it doesnt matter to me if someone is a soldier or not, whether they are a paper pusher, a truck driver or part of a Stryker unit.. as soon as that person uses a term like 'realistic flow of battle' (read: I want you to play how I want you to play) they've lost my attention.

 

[VariousNames]

If it is accurate fire, then yes as it should be. But blindly firing, spraying and praying? I know in DH I have never been subject to suppression effects being in the "general direction of someone spraying and praying" at any distance.

Evidently you've never had a hipshooting duel in Darkest Hour. If you ever want to spasm uncontrollably, walk around with a Thompson, meet up with somebody in a corridor, and fire fully automatic bursts at one another.

I'd estimate that shots landing roughly within a one inch radius from a target's location (from the perspective of the shooter) at 50m to be roughly sufficient to cause them to spasm uncontrollably in Darkest Hour.

 

[VariousNames]

\

Honetly, and this is going to sound elitist, but I think the real reason people hate the DH style (flinching) of suppression is because they view themselves as uber soldiers who only want to rely on their reaction skills to kill instead of also having to use their brains and team work to adapt and overcome the situation. They want to feel like an action star.

That sure would be odd if the people complaining about DH wanted to complain about reaction skills. Because I can go ahead and tell you that from my experience with the system, what actually happens is whoever obtains INITIAL (read, whoever shoots first) fire superiority reduces, as REZ said, their opponent to a quivering mass. It instantaneously defeats their ability to engage the target.

All you gotta do is put the sight roughly on the location of your target, hold mouse 1, and they are "suppressed."

In RO, by contrast, you actually have to aim. If it were a matter of reflexes, just shooting first might get something done in RO, which I can tell you from experience and common sense it does not. RO is all about shot placement, anybody can tell you that. It's almost never about who shoots first, even in point blank engagements with submachine guns. Some people are so terrible at controlling their firearms in RO they're incapable of winning a firefight taking place at 1 meter in spite of them pulling that trigger first.

 

[Zetsumei]

Zets, you're talking to me here.. you know I've actually played a good amount of DH, right? 100%? I think you're a lot smarter than to use a figure like 100%.

The thing with suppression is it either works or it doesn't so its either 0% or 100%.

As I and others have said loads of times the DH suppression system doesn't make you fear dying more. It's a game with respawns so you cannot fear dying anywhere close to reality. But it stops someone from firing back with pinpoint accuracy when he's under fire, and exactly that is suppression.

In my experience, it doesnt make me (and plenty of others I've noticed through simple observation) take cover any more than being shot at in regular RO. All it does is make it so I cant return fire accurately if enough bullets come close.
.

Bingo! and that is exactly the goal of what suppression is supposed to do.

In essence the purpose of suppression is to stop a target observing, shooting or moving. This is useful for tactical reasons, as a suppressed target will be unable to return fire upon vulnerable forces that are moving without cover available.

Here is some old information gathered together about the act of suppression: http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=556212&postcount=96

 

[VariousNames]

As I and others have said loads of times the DH suppression system doesn't make you fear dying more. It's a game with respawns so you cannot fear dying anywhere close to reality. But it stops someone from firing back with pinpoint accuracy when he's under fire, and exactly that is suppression.

Well, the fortunate thing is when you're under fire, as long as you can place a moderately tight grouping on the person "suppressing you" with a decent rate of fire, you can actually cause enough "suppression" on them to let off some of the danger. It's quite silly watchin' somebody spray bullets at you and watching their cone of fire expand because you get a few rounds off at them.