Suppression, and why MG tactics aren't what they should be

[Yellonet]

Yes I felt we needed another thread.

In combat suppression is a much bigger factor that many people think.

The primary function of a machine gun is to lay down suppressive fire so that the other types of infantry can move in for the kill and or concentrate or incapacitating the enemy with precision fire.
It is also a vital tool for area denial, such as stopping an enemy advance or cut of escape routes and such.
The machine gun has range and it can cover a large area with lead.

Why is the MG such a formidable weapon even at large areas and at long range?
The simple answer, fear of death.

When someone is shooting in your direction your gut reaction is to get behind cover and stay there.
No one in their right mind would just stand still in the middle of the fire, aim perfectly and kill the shooter far away.

As this is a game fear of death doesn't really come into play.
What we have instead is the suppression system that's supposed to simulate a reaction to being under fire.
IMO is is quite undermodeled and seems to be either too weak, last too short or be completely absent most of the time.
This is why machine guns doesn't work as well as they should in the game.

With a good position a single machine gunner should be able to suppress pretty much everyone behind every window of a big house by continuously laying down bursts against those windows, and in so doing preventing the enemy to effectively return fire resulting in a much easier job for the own team while at the same time not being a very easy target himself.

The suppression effect should be much stronger and last for a few seconds more.
The prime reason why you die too easily as a machine gunner isn't because you're in a vulnerable spot, but because suppression doesn't work as it should.

And suppression should obviously work just the same from other guns, a team of riflemen keeping a continuous flow of lead towards an area should be quite effective at suppressing the enemy. The amount of lead per second should be key.

It should be very possible to move in two fire teams, one suppressing the enemy and the other advancing, clearing out the enemy and start suppressing the enemy at the next position so that the first FT can move in and so on. As it stands this is quite difficult as the enemy can often take perfect shots even when under fire.

Feel free to discuss

 

[Thalvik]

I would be very suppressed, if the camera would be me.
OK, it's an MG42, but in this situation I wouldn't care:
Facing the German MG-42 Machine Gun! - YouTube

 

[Romanrp]

I agree with this, but despite all its flaws the Machinegunner is my favourite class, and should get better when (fingers crossed) the mg42 is in the game.

But still, it doesnt quite feel like the opening scene of saving private ryan.

Sometimes when I deploy my machinegun and start suppressing the enemy doesnt seem to care....

 

[MrLebanon]

Wasn't mg42 later in the war?

You may see it modded perhaps

 

[Yellonet]

Wasn't mg42 later in the war?

You may see it modded perhaps

The 42 in MG42 stands for 1942, as the year it was taken into service.
But it always takes some time for new weapons to reach the fronts in numbers so I would wager that it wasn't readily available until 1943.

 

[Spindle]

MG 42 will come in a patch, but please not another history thread about the MG 42.

 

[THD]

2OP: Suppression effects are way overdone already, the reason mgs kinda suck is because they have worse accuracy than pistols. It is true, go fire against a wall to check for yourself. Currently mp-40 is a better mg than the mg-34. Ironically, mg-34 is a better assault weapon than the mp-40 because of hipshooting. TWI has some serious rebalancing to do, if they want guns to be used the way they intended, but suppression isn't one of the things they should touch.

 

[Full Frontal Yeti]

the fear of death this is exactly what's up, well put.

i don't fear death, my aim is still true enough, so i stick my head out and pop no more MG.

maybe all they really need to do is just destroy all gun accuracy during suppression. view sway need not be connected to this as it's all about the hit radius.
Just crank up the hit window to some insane amount that effectively means you won't hit the side of a barn at 10 yards.

you peek your head out to maybe see where it's coming from, but only so you have a better idea of which direction to run in, not because you can even think of shooting at them.

 

[ChargerCarl]

2OP: Suppression effects are way overdone already, the reason mgs kinda suck is because they have worse accuracy than pistols

This. I can't hit anything during a short burst past the first or 2 bullets.

I think it also has to do with hit reg too though.

 

[Audemed]

the fear of death this is exactly what's up, well put.

i don't fear death, my aim is still true enough, so i stick my head out and pop no more MG.

maybe all they really need to do is just destroy all gun accuracy during suppression. view sway need not be connected to this as it's all about the hit radius.
Just crank up the hit window to some insane amount that effectively means you won't hit the side of a barn at 10 yards.

you peek your head out to maybe see where it's coming from, but only so you have a better idea of which direction to run in, not because you can even think of shooting at them.

Yes, please.

Mg's also ought to have an additional suppression "AOE", if you will. If i'm shooting down a road at 4 guys running across, they should ALL get suppressed.

 

[Keith Moons Liver]

the primary function of an MG is to kill people
the reason it suppresses people so well is because it is so good at killing them

 

[Krazyxazn]

Darkest Hour's suppression would put the fear into players

If its close range fighting, I don't even bother to hide with RO2's suppression. Only long range fighting I hide.

 

[NinetyNine]

the primary function of an MG is to kill people
the reason it suppresses people so well is because it is so good at killing them

As it works in the game currently, it is less effective than a rifle or SMG at killing people, but also fails to actually suppress them. So, they very effectively modeled the MG to do neither of the things it's good at.

It also makes you run slower. It's like an inaccurate, ineffective boat anchor you can carry around. Probably as punishment for not picking a different class.

 

[Yellonet]

2OP: Suppression effects are way overdone already, the reason mgs kinda suck is because they have worse accuracy than pistols. It is true, go fire against a wall to check for yourself. Currently mp-40 is a better mg than the mg-34. Ironically, mg-34 is a better assault weapon than the mp-40 because of hipshooting. TWI has some serious rebalancing to do, if they want guns to be used the way they intended, but suppression isn't one of the things they should touch.

I can agree that there may be some tweaks left.
But it is not true that MG's suck because of bad accuracy, I've been killed from far off plenty of times.
MG's are in actually more effective if they are not super accurate because they will then be able to "automatically" suppress a larger area and or hit more enemies without the gunner having to aim exactly at the intended target.
There are real world examples where MGs were too accurate for best effect and was therefore made less accurate by design.

 

[throumbas]

Darkest Hour's suppression would put the fear into players

If its close range fighting, I don't even bother to hide with RO2's suppression. Only long range fighting I hide.

Darkest hour supression effect: blurring
Red Orchestra 2 supression effect: blurring plus greyness

Same thing really. What needs to improve is bigger penalty to aiming while supressed.

 

[Yellonet]

the fear of death this is exactly what's up, well put.

i don't fear death, my aim is still true enough, so i stick my head out and pop no more MG.

maybe all they really need to do is just destroy all gun accuracy during suppression. view sway need not be connected to this as it's all about the hit radius.
Just crank up the hit window to some insane amount that effectively means you won't hit the side of a barn at 10 yards.

you peek your head out to maybe see where it's coming from, but only so you have a better idea of which direction to run in, not because you can even think of shooting at them.

Well not hitting a barn at 10 yards may be overdoing it, but you've obviously understood my thinking

 

[brain]

I can summarize the OP in two sentences:

1) Rifles are all absurdly accurate and have no sway.
2) Suppression does nothing unless bullets are actively flying over your head, the "grey screen" means nothing.
​

 

[Ossius]

I've yet to see anyone actually say MGs are effective, and 80% of the time I'm on a server, only 1/3 of the MGs are taken. They should be the most effective class in the game, why aren't they better?

We need belt fed LMGs, we need better suppression for LMG, and we need something to bolster them. LMG class should be the most deadly outside of sniper and tanker, instead they fall only a bit better than Rifleman, and only when they are stationary.

 

[KarmakazeNZ]

In combat suppression is a much bigger factor that many people think.

Define suppression. The problem with all these arguments I have seen is that people really have no idea what they mean when they say "suppression".

Suppressing fire is not about making a guy's eyes go blurry and his hands shake. I might fire into an empty field just so that the enemy doesn't try to run across it... that is suppressing fire. To "suppress" the enemy is to prevent him from doing something you don't want him to do, whether that is moving or shooting.

What you are talking about is the gamey "suppression" that people believe is necessary to simulate the fear of dying. Suppressing fire works because people don't want to get shot, so they don't go where the bullets are. In games though, people aren't afraid of dying, so they don't get panicky and thus can take calm aimed shots even with bullets passing nearby or even hitting them. Games try to FORCE you to become panicky so that suppressing fire can work. But they started doing this in the days when it took 3 or 4 shots to even hurt someone, and they could instantly heal to full health. There was no fear of dying so you faked it.

But in a game like this where you can die instantly from a single shot, where you can't heal, and where you may end up not being able to respawn, there IS a real fear of dying. So these gamey effects are stupid. They OVER compensate now because I am REALLY trying not to get killed, but these stupid effects make it harder to do that for no reason. There is NO real world suppression effect apart from going deaf from the noise.

Real soldiers are trained to stay calm under fire so that they DON'T panic and CAN fight. Yet this game makes hardened veterans into cowards at the slightest provocation. It's ridiculous.

The primary function of a machine gun is to lay down suppressive fire so that the other types of infantry can move in for the kill and or concentrate or incapacitating the enemy with precision fire.

No, the primary function of the MG is to support the infantry. Suppressive fire is one means to accomplish that. ONE. In Iraq and Afghanistan, the M-249 is the favoured room clearing weapon because it is small enough to use in confined spaces, hits as hard as anything they have, has a 200 round belt so won't need reloading in the middle of the attack, and has a rate of fire high enough to spray a room clean.

It is also a vital tool for area denial, such as stopping an enemy advance or cut of escape routes and such.

The only weapons really employed like that are HMGs or GPMG's on crew served tripod mounts. You do not have one of those in this game. There are guns on the map for that though, but they are death traps because they are fixed.

No one in their right mind would just stand still in the middle of the fire, aim perfectly and kill the shooter far away.

Oh, yes they would. All the time in fact. Wars wouldn't happen if they didn't. Do you think you never get shot at? How are you supposed to do anything if you roll around on the floor pissing yourself every time someone shoots at you?

Soldiers train SPECIFICALLY to become used to being shot at. Have you never seen those movies where they fire MG's over soldiers crawling under barbed wire in training? That's not a myth. On the rifle range, you're maybe two foot away from a target that someone is shooting at... you don't cry or shake or go blind. You go deaf from the noise and you get on with it.

Yes fear of death is important. So make me afraid to die... not make me blind and stupid. Make respawn times longer, or no respawns. Watch people get afraid to die for real. Rather than stupid effects that you can take advantage of in ways you can't in the real world.

This is why machine guns doesn't work as well as they should in the game.

They work perfectly. Too good in fact. I'm saying this as a guy who runs around on barracks with the MG and usually gets more kills than most of my team. The MG works perfectly, except for maybe the no IS when not prone.

(Come on TWI, do you really think you can't shoulder fire an MG?)

With a good position a single machine gunner should be able to suppress pretty much everyone behind every window of a big house by continuously laying down bursts against those windows

Yes, by shooting them, not by making them go blind and stupid. A good rifleman in the house should also be able to ignore some incoming rounds and take the shot... if they aren't actually hitting him.

You'd think no one ever won a medal the way this game operates. People CAN and DO ignore heavy fire to attack enemy positions with skill and ferocity. This game makes it IMPOSSIBLE. That is NOT realistic AT ALL.

I get sick of people calling something realistic when it is in fact a gamey way of faking something. Seriously, how could anyone think it's even slightly realistic?

 

[Mr. Charles]

Suppression effects should be enhanced and stay longer. Right now riflemen can sit behind sandbags, peek over and oneshot MGs. Sway needs to go way up, so that you'd actually have to flank the position or wait for a sniper to pick the nest of from a high distance.