It looks a liability for me. If he is ANY other perk, he can actually HELP. Not just sitting at the corner most of the time. As medic, he can tank, and heal really effectively.
Support Specialist : Balance
- Thread starter sverek
- Start date
It looks a liability for me. If he is ANY other perk, he can actually HELP. Not just sitting at the corner most of the time. As medic, he can tank, and heal really effectively.
I was the medic in that particular game and I never needed to tank. And the reason he sat there was cause it limited the spawns from that particular spawn point. It was giving us fits the wave before that. Just because he doesn't get a ton of kills doesn't mean he didn't play a good game. If you think kill count is all that matters in KF you're sorely mistaken and need to relearn the game.
The difference is, when thing goes wrong (which really happen A LOT on HoE), the firebug cant do much. Just because in this game 4 player can handle 90% of the zed fine, doesn't mean its fine.
Kill count, of cos, doest not mean much, but if you only need a person to shut down one spawn or two, you can fit ANY PERK in that position which can be 1000 times more helpful than the firebug.
Just thought of something we've neglected so far. The Support is not so good at being the last guy left on a wave if somethign goes wrong. Beserker and Medic are prime choices, there speed and boosted health/armor makes them quite resilient, and the fact beserker can't be grabbed really makes life good for the Beserker. But the Support can't do this as effectivly, sure he can clear the path well, but he is slow andmore than likely going to run out of ammo if there are still a few zeds left. This goes for most perks other than Medic and Beserker, which is my point. There are still things that Support acn't do and probably won't ver be able to do, and this is one of them. Being raped by Husks is the main issue, especially on more open levels, so yeah, Support can't do everything. 
Just thought I'd mention this cos there could be quite a few other obvious things that we have missde that would help to show that Support isn't over powered, simply over played.
Just thought I'd mention this cos there could be quite a few other obvious things that we have missde that would help to show that Support isn't over powered, simply over played.
I disagree. Firebug has its uses. When Scary played with us that game, he sat in that area aggroing husks and killing clots/crawlers, making it easier for the sharp and commando. Being there, also, he was also able to call out FPs way before anyone else could see them.
You're also assuming we'll mess up
I disagree. Firebug has its uses. When Scary played with us that game, he sat in that area aggroing husks and killing clots/crawlers, making it easier for the sharp and commando. Being there, also, he was also able to call out FPs way before anyone else could see them.
You're also assuming we'll mess up
We didn't have commando for wave 10, lol
Seems to me after taking a while off and re-reading alot of the threads, the problem now with balance is people are starting to slip into a
"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - Scissors
Mentality. People, including myself, don't want to see their favourite perk nerfed/changed, and as such aren't really taking in the other sides arguement, and are defending it however they can.
I constantly say the Firebug is fine, but if I'm honest with myself, in reality he is slightly weak. Only slightly mind but thats part of the reason I enjoy playing him. I relish the challenge. He does need a small buff, but just a small one as much as I don't want to admit it.
Support is the same but the counter arguement. If you are honest with yourself, think which perk you find easiest to play. I question heavily anyone who doesn't put support in either first or second. We've gone round and round why the support is slightly overpowered, most people don't need it telling again, but for those who do.
To sum up I think we can all agree that the Support is the most versatile class, and in KF versatility is a powerful tool, and in my mind, its too powerful. Taking away his nades and having his speed carry on decreasing the more he carries is I feel a good compromise. Players can keep their power, but the support will have problems against a legion of crawlers and/or gorefasts.
"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - Scissors
Mentality. People, including myself, don't want to see their favourite perk nerfed/changed, and as such aren't really taking in the other sides arguement, and are defending it however they can.
I constantly say the Firebug is fine, but if I'm honest with myself, in reality he is slightly weak. Only slightly mind but thats part of the reason I enjoy playing him. I relish the challenge. He does need a small buff, but just a small one as much as I don't want to admit it.
Support is the same but the counter arguement. If you are honest with yourself, think which perk you find easiest to play. I question heavily anyone who doesn't put support in either first or second. We've gone round and round why the support is slightly overpowered, most people don't need it telling again, but for those who do.
Spoiler!
To sum up I think we can all agree that the Support is the most versatile class, and in KF versatility is a powerful tool, and in my mind, its too powerful. Taking away his nades and having his speed carry on decreasing the more he carries is I feel a good compromise. Players can keep their power, but the support will have problems against a legion of crawlers and/or gorefasts.
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Oops, that was another game.
But yeah if there was a commando then you'd have helped
I'm happy with lowering his speed, I wasn't aware of the speed that the Sup[port has before this thread in terms of overall weight and all that, so yeah, slowed down would be good. I'm really not sure about the grenades though... They are my main concern in respect to the nerf. Maybe if max at level 6 goes down to 9, or 8 minimum, but any lower and I think he'd be losing something that really isn't the reason he is overpowered. Yeah, it's nice, but it isn't what makes him as versatile as he is, it's his arsenal of shotguns and the speed issue.
On a side note: Demolitions, I was playing earlier to day and noticed that they don't get discounted grenades (I may have seen this wrong, please correct me if so). But if this is the case, would it not be logical for him to have a discount?
On a side note: Demolitions, I was playing earlier to day and noticed that they don't get discounted grenades (I may have seen this wrong, please correct me if so). But if this is the case, would it not be logical for him to have a discount?
I NEVER said commando or fiebug in a team cant win.
AGAIN, AND AGAIN, if you keep consider a well organized team (or full team friends where most of the team know the game pretty well), I really dont think HOE will be ANYWHERE hard with any perk combination.
Then, I again, NEVER say support is not strong. It IS strong. I just keep reminding you guys that once you start a nerf IT WONT STOP. IT JUST WONT. And at the same time, demo is REALLY, doing most of the things you guys dont like about support.
And firebugs lovers can keep defending themselves by those clearly flase arguements such as FB wont blind teamates. A CLOT on fire can block a SCRAKE behind him. Talk about not blocking sights... sigh....
AGAIN, AND AGAIN, if you keep consider a well organized team (or full team friends where most of the team know the game pretty well), I really dont think HOE will be ANYWHERE hard with any perk combination.
Then, I again, NEVER say support is not strong. It IS strong. I just keep reminding you guys that once you start a nerf IT WONT STOP. IT JUST WONT. And at the same time, demo is REALLY, doing most of the things you guys dont like about support.
And firebugs lovers can keep defending themselves by those clearly flase arguements such as FB wont blind teamates. A CLOT on fire can block a SCRAKE behind him. Talk about not blocking sights... sigh....
Do you REALLY need to TYPE like THIS TO make YOUR point?
Ok serious people stop pushing all the blames to any particular perk you had in mind. First of all Support Specialist is a pretty balanced perk and is definitely not the most versatile and overpowered. IMO, berserker is the most versatile perk of all and is also the most overpowered.
I do have facts to back up my statement:
1. Support Specialist without using any tricks (katana + HSG or grenades + 2 HSG) cannot solo a scrake or FP,
2. Support Specialist has the second slowest reloading speed right below the Demolitions in ranking.
3. Support Specialist move slow like all the other perks. (Although by comparing stats Support Specialist move a little faster than other perks when fully loaded, the difference is not even significant/noticeable.)
4. Grenades combo will work well with many perks and not just Support Specialist only. (The reason Support Specialist excel at this is because he can deal 50% more damage with it and Support Specialist can make good use of FP's rage animation to deal massive damage before he can even start charging.)
I do have facts to back up my statement:
1. Support Specialist without using any tricks (katana + HSG or grenades + 2 HSG) cannot solo a scrake or FP,
2. Support Specialist has the second slowest reloading speed right below the Demolitions in ranking.
3. Support Specialist move slow like all the other perks. (Although by comparing stats Support Specialist move a little faster than other perks when fully loaded, the difference is not even significant/noticeable.)
4. Grenades combo will work well with many perks and not just Support Specialist only. (The reason Support Specialist excel at this is because he can deal 50% more damage with it and Support Specialist can make good use of FP's rage animation to deal massive damage before he can even start charging.)
What about disabling the ability to switch away from the Hunting Shotgun during reload (either make it possible to switch after reloading one pellet or force the player to reload both before switching)? I think SMIFF touched on the subject earlier in the thread and I think it's a small change that would change things up for the Support Specialist, and still make sense to players. You can't reload "in the background" with the AA12 or shotgun, so why are you able to with the HSG in the first place? (It's possible with the Crossbow and LAW as well, but that's a topic for another discussion.)
I agree with the Support Specialist being a bit too easy, but I still love playing as a support and don't want to lose too many of the good things, as so many other already have stated. A change like this would not really be a "nerf" but it would still force players to play a bit differently. Personally I think this coupled with the aforementioned 15/24 vs. 24/24 weight/speed change would be two things that would bring the Support back in line with the rest, while still keeping the fun of the perk.
I agree with the Support Specialist being a bit too easy, but I still love playing as a support and don't want to lose too many of the good things, as so many other already have stated. A change like this would not really be a "nerf" but it would still force players to play a bit differently. Personally I think this coupled with the aforementioned 15/24 vs. 24/24 weight/speed change would be two things that would bring the Support back in line with the rest, while still keeping the fun of the perk.
Do YOU play support enough? The past days Ive done nothing but play support on HoE trying to get achievements with friends and I NEVER had trouble reloading my gun. Every time I had to reload I just cleared the hallway either with a hunting shotgun or a nade. So I dont really understand how you are having such problems with the reload time?
I never said pipebombs was a must-have, but they ARE useful when used right.
Again, I never said it wasnt powerful. I said it wasnt MORE powerful than AA12 all things considered. While it MIGHT do more damage with 6 nades compared to 20 shells on AA12, it takes much longer to reload therefor the amount of damage it can deal within a set timelimit is less than what AA12 can do. Or actually you can forget about the damage, the key word is maintaining the damage output to keep specimens at bay and not letting them get close to you.
Yeah, when hes got a teammate or two backing him up. If he had to cover a hallway all by himself he'd be dead in a matter of seconds UNLIKE support who can handle any situation.
You dont make any sense. We are talking about support being able to solo everything and you are talking about 6 firebugs. So what, 6 firebugs equals to 1 support and still he isnt overpowered? What..?
AGAIN, I never said firebug is a bad perk just nowhere near as good as support. Firebug is actually pretty balanced atm, same as commando, demo and maybe medic.
Yeah if all goes PERFECTLY you can also beat a long 6 man game as level 0 medic all by yourself.
What?
With AA12 you dont have to get headshots and you can clear the hallway in a second, with SS you need time to take headshots and you can kill only one zed at a time unless using a crossbow which doesnt kill bigger targets on one body-shot.
Yes, again, when hes backed up by teammates. Support can solo anything ALONE, any other perk cant as effectively (maybe with the exception of berserker).
Aaaand... Im done arguing with you.
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Of cos I dont, in your book.
AA12 is still being the slowest reload weapon which cannot be interupted other than LAW.
LAR, shotgun or M32 can use the tactic of shoot once, reload two shots (or more) then shoot once again. But with aa12 the reload cannot be interupted and it is enough for a foregast to get close. If it get close, you either need 2-3 shots to kill it or you get slash twice. Of cos good positioning can solve most of these, but it is plain fact that aa12 is a gun that can get you kill by just one bad reload timing even there are only one gorefast near you.
Agree with that, but if you dont consider it as a must have... why you have money problems with demo...?
AA12 kill bigs no where near ammo-effective. It dont even kill them fast enough actually...
Shotguns do area damage as arc shape. Explosives do area damage with round shape. Explosives simply do the best area damage in game. So you can always adjust where your nade hit to stun as much zed (or even kill) as possible. Not to mention you can add in one nade of your total of 11 to deal massive damage.
As support you just cannot "clear" a hallway all by youreself with only one hunting shotgun alt-fire as you say. But with demo, you just stun everything and then you are free to reload even without teamates.
If you talk about keeping most zeds at bay, demo is better with the only exception of scrakes is in the way.
I agree with you that support handle themselves better than demo. But demo is actually doing more damage thanks to his better area damage and every nade they use can be set off before the zed can dodge. Support can only use nade effectively on pounds. And considering "holding the line" to buy time for teamates, demo is clearly better. One nade + one GL shot = nothing left within 10 feet. Support cannot do that because hunting shotgun pellets scatter around too much beyond 5 feet. You need quite some luck if you want any gorefast dead 5 feets away.
Scrake + pound? Scrake + sirens? Husks + fleshpound? Siren + fleshpound? Want more?
Even demo is good to "hold the line", **** still happens. Just like in one game 2 scrakes step on a pipe and both of them charge into the team, I want to keep everything from the team for 3 seconds, but 2 bloat is blocking my M32 so I cannot stun those mutiple husks behind them and after both scrake and the two bloat has die, two sirens scream and half the team dies.
No perk can handle any suituation. If you think support is OP, demo clearly is too.
The only thing making support can solo scrakes unharmed is the KATANA. While katana can fit into most of the perk's combos. This also makes firebug and commando solo scrakes. About support vs fps, we really dont need tricks of any kind. Purely knowedge about the game is enough.
Well about this... as I remember you are the one who say 6-firebug will be in hugh trouble on HoE...
So again... if support is overpowered, demo is overpower too.
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AGAIN, I never said firebug is a bad perk just nowhere near as good as support. Firebug is actually pretty balanced atm, same as commando, demo and maybe medic.
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You just dont know what demo is actually doing...
Two commando vs scrake dont need to be perfect... scrake's head can be removed with around one and a half clip of ak or SCAR. When BOTH player can see the health bar, the can reload just before they rage the scrake.
So each of them only need to spam half a clip into the scrake's face... not to mention... you have katana....
What about what? 6-berserker team do require much more time to clear a wave then camping teams. While 6 berserker teams dont really win most of the time.
(If you bring out friend or clan servers... like I said, no perk combination cant win)
Support can "potentially" clear a hallway in a second. Demo CAN keep any small to medium zeds away from the team in a second (if they are not killed, they are stuned).
It is now unaffortable to use xbow on anything below sirens and husks. Not to mention it cant even kill a clot after passing trough two zeds.
May be you haven't notice... but stunning is really useful. LAR stun clots, M14 stun stalkers. Which is enough to block crawlers and gorefasts behind. Which should be enough for you to prepare for a careful shot.
Yes, before you point it out, demo and support do the same thing easier.
You miss out sharpshooter and demo again... in 1v1, all four perks can deal with anything alone before wave 11 without kiting.
At the end... katana and M32 is the weapons to cause problem. Both of them are too good even off-perked. When you get perk bonus, they are really great.
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It's ok, we just throw a medic into the game and the support makes up for it, given that there's now only five shooters instead of six.
LMAO, I love how grenades are picked to be imbalanced. Sounds like me more you are just bored of this perk. All classes are balanced, just depends on what fits your play style.
My 2 cents :
Is it overpowered ? Yes. Or some other classes might be underpowered in comparison. Put it the way you want to hear it.
Should it be nerfed ? No. The support specialist brings some variety from dull "unload & pray" tactics when mowing down the big ones. If the major support tricks get significantly less effective, I'd see the game as less interesting to play.
Is it overpowered ? Yes. Or some other classes might be underpowered in comparison. Put it the way you want to hear it.
Should it be nerfed ? No. The support specialist brings some variety from dull "unload & pray" tactics when mowing down the big ones. If the major support tricks get significantly less effective, I'd see the game as less interesting to play.