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Suggestion for PTRD

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Crim

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 6, 2006
297
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Panzerfaust is much less effective than it was in real life, so if you're going to make it so that only one can be carried, you might want to fix that too.

Not to mention the fact that it should be available to most of the German team.

I'm going to stop before this goes too off-topic.
 

Teufel Hund

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 31, 2006
261
21
0
In addition, they need to look at the PTRD's ability to inflict damage on the 251, which is ALSO seriously fubar.
The only thing in the 251 to damage is the engine, and the crew/passengers. You shoot it anywhere else and it just goes through. Nothing wrong with how the PTRD and the 251 work.
 
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Teufel Hund

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 31, 2006
261
21
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So, basicly you are saying you won't care if the AT soldier class is useless and worthless, because it simulates realism? I wonder how you will have fun with the game like that.
I certainly don't want to make the AT soldier class worthless. I just want the PTRD to be realistic (I want everything in the game to be as realistic as possible). Then it would be employed as it was historically, against light armored vehicles. What I think should be done is to fix the PTRD, then give the AT soldier a choice between PTRD and a Pistol, or a few RPG-43 grenades and a SMG. That way you can choose whether you want to go tank hunting, or take out light armored vehicles. Then they can also fix the satchel charge while they're at it...

Sadly at the moment the only light armored vehicle for the Germans is the sdkfz 251. But I'd like to see a few of the 251 variants added as well as the sdkfz 222. Then the PTRD would have some more realistic targets to shoot at.

For the record, I play German and Russian about equally. I prefer to play as a tanker or squad leader.
 

Teufel Hund

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 31, 2006
261
21
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You can only push realism so far until it simply becomes unfun. This game is already FAR, FAR more realistic then any first person shooter I have ever seen. Period. Right now it is limited by numbers more then anything else. You can't simulate the massive advantage in numbers the Russians enjoyed. Increasing the reinforcement count doesn't cut it because then you are merely throwing people one at a time at someone. The reason the Russian numbers made a difference is because at any given time they had more soldiers then the Germans. Throwing one guy at an Tiger, waiting, and then throwing another guy at it doesn't work. You have to throw three or four guys at it AT ONCE.
Increasing the reinforcements was just one suggestion, and it would work fine for the infantry. For the tanks, other things would also have to be done. Like simply give them more of them (and if they're modeled accurately then this combined with the reinforcements should balance things). But again, that's the map makers job to balance.
 

Mormegil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
4,178
574
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Nargothrond
Panzerfaust is much less effective than it was in real life, so if you're going to make it so that only one can be carried, you might want to fix that too.

Not to mention the fact that it should be available to most of the German team.

I'm going to stop before this goes too off-topic.

I agree. Keep it to 1 faust at a time, but make it more lethal.



Anyways, I think we can all agree that we would ultimately like to see the PTRD toned down to realistic armor penetration levels.

We just disagree on the timing. Some say now, others say when the Tanks can also be fixed so the vulnerable parts are modelled.


I just wanted to add an analogy to the case where the PTRD is toned down and the tanks don't get damagable optics / personnel / gun barrel (MG at least) / turret ring / etc.

What if you modelled an infantry game where side A gets a perfectly modelled STG44.

Side B gets a perfectly modelled and completely realistic stick.

It's perfectly realistic. Does this sound like a fun game?
 

Afterburner

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2006
184
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I agree. Keep it to 1 faust at a time, but make it more lethal.



Anyways, I think we can all agree that we would ultimately like to see the PTRD toned down to realistic armor penetration levels.

We just disagree on the timing. Some say now, others say when the Tanks can also be fixed so the vulnerable parts are modelled.


I just wanted to add an analogy to the case where the PTRD is toned down and the tanks don't get damagable optics / personnel / gun barrel (MG at least) / turret ring / etc.

What if you modelled an infantry game where side A gets a perfectly modelled STG44.

Side B gets a perfectly modelled and completely realistic stick.

It's perfectly realistic. Does this sound like a fun game?
Exactly. I want the PTRD to be realistic , I want the Tiger to be realistic, I want everything to be mostly realistic(obviously some concessions, we can't have it so you die once and you are permanently blocked from the game or anythnig like that:p)

I'm just saying that when you change something, you have to look at what it strongly effects(for instance, the PTRD and tanks, or the Tiger and the T-34/85) and make ALL changes at the same time. Otherwise you break the game, even if it is for only a month it is still breaking the game.
 

Sichartshofen

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
1,410
99
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What if you modelled an infantry game where side A gets a perfectly modelled STG44.

Side B gets a perfectly modelled and completely realistic stick.

It's perfectly realistic. Does this sound like a fun game?
That is the stupidest thing I've ever read.
 

Dheepan

FNG / Fresh Meat
Um no? What you are suggesting is to immediatley change the PTRD to something totally useless. Sure it can't blow up tanks if it's historically correct, however if you do not model optics and such it's totally unrealistic. You can't have one without the other.

Secondly, the PTRD takes the most skill to use out of any weapon in the game hands down. Of course, it's overpowered but it's certainly harder to kill a tank with a ptrd than a panzerfaust (I DON"T CARE IF IT"S SUPPOSE TO BLOW UP EVERY DAMN TANK IN ONE SHOT YOU GET THREE OF THEM AND CAN SHOOT THEM LIKE A ****ING SEMIAUTOMATIC ROCKET LAUNCHER). If you die in a panther from a ptrd it's your own damn fault; it's very difficult. A russian infantry man with a ATR has to lie in wait concealed, and has to usually take more than one shot to bring down a tank. At this time you are also vulnerable to german infantry etc. Also if your not aiming at the engine or ammo boxes you are going to be totally ineffective, as stated previously it's difficult. A slight angle will render your rounds useless. Killing a tank with a ptrd is one of the hardest and most rewarding things in RO. Even if it's arcady, I think some of you people should play with the class to really understand how hard it is to use.
 
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Field Marshal Rommel

Guest
Rommel34 said:
PTRD Penetration:
100m 300m 500m
35mm 27mm 22mm
F M Rommel said:
My suggestion:
1. Let the PTRD cause greater damage per bullet but............
2. Get rid of these magical frontal kills (again no German tank in game can be penetrated frontally by the PTRD)
3. Get rid of 1 shot kills (armor prevents "weak spot" kills)
4. Get rid of long range kills (seeing as the PTRD was useless at 500 meters at which it had only about 20mm of penetration)
5. The Tiger I and Panther G should never be damaged by ATR fire!(except tracks, optics ect.)
6. Panzer IV F1/F2 should only be killed/penetrated from the sides/rear
7. Panzer IIIL/StugIIIF/8 should only be killed/penetrated from the sides
8. Panzer IV H should only be killed from the rear!!!!! Side skirts makes the sides invulnerable to ATR Fire!!
whats wrong with this suggestion?
It everything about it is realitic except for the damage the damage the PTRD round causes. It makes everyone happy except clinically depressed teenages.

You fix it now, you break the game.
Not really the PTRD is not the primary weapon for the Soviet Union!
It is not even a nessary addtion to RO seeing as it was an outdatted uneffective antitank (theres not even any light vehicles to kill with it) device more important guns like the Mg-42 and 34 were lacking a bit of accuaracy although there were many complaints noone claimed they "broke the game". The only thing in my opinon that would "break" this game is if we let too much balance (excessive amount found in games like DOD S and COD) of weapons and vehicles get in the way of realism and ruin one of the best ww2 games out so far. :)
 

Mormegil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
4,178
574
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Nargothrond
That is the stupidest thing I've ever read.

Why is this analogy stupid? I'm trying to demonstrate the problem from our perspective.


Let me try it again.

Say you have a WWII Eastern Front game.

Allies get the T-34/85, modelled with perfect armor (but optics aren't damagable). They also get lend-lease Bazookas.

Axis gets Panzer II with perfect armor modelling and the Panzerbuchse 38 perfectly modelled (so it can't hurt the T-34/85).

Does this sound any better?


IMO, if you're going to complain about the PTRD being over powered, then you should also be complaining about the tank optics being invulnerable and crew being untouchable.


BTW: Thanks Dheep
 
F

Field Marshal Rommel

Guest
Mormegil said:
[Allies get the T-34/85, modelled with perfect armor (but optics aren't damagable). They also get lend-lease Bazookas.

Axis gets Panzer II with perfect armor modelling and the Panzerbuchse 38 perfectly modelled (so it can't hurt the T-34/85).
Im afraid this analogy doesnt make much sense since the PzII, the German ATR's and T-34/85 probably never met in combat due to the fact the German ATRs were phased out in 1941-1942. The lend lease bazooka would only be accessable to the Soviets from late 1943 on wards although it (from most accounts Ive read) had trouble penetrating German armor espeically the Tiger I it was "comparable" to a Panzershreck (not in game) or even a Panzerfaust (200mm of penetration) it has nowhere near its penetration power hense the nick name "tank terror". The PzII saw limited combat of the early part of Barbarossa (1941) if im not mistaken most of them became command tanks and then recon tanks and later served away from the frontlines and provided security for occuppied nations such as France and Poland.

Achtung Panzer said:
Panzerkampfwagen II was first issued to combat units in the spring of 1936 and saw active service till 1942. Afterwards, it served on secondary fronts until the end of the war as well as a training tank. Originally, Panzerkampfwagen II was the main component of the early Panzer divisions being issued to company and platoon commanders.

During the Campaign in the West in 1940 and early stage of the Invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, Panzerkampfwagen II served mainly as reconnaissance but were often used as combat tanks. Majority was removed from frontline service in 1942.
Mormegil said:
IMO, if you're going to complain about the PTRD being over powered, then you should also be complaining about the tank optics being invulnerable and crew being untouchable.
No, because that would be asking for new features to be added.Why add new features to a"broken" weapon? Surely fixing it should take priority! I am just interrested in getting the weapon to work correctly then later if its possible with this engine add these new features.
 
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BeserkWraithlor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 3, 2006
461
0
0
Arizona
Um no? What you are suggesting is to immediatley change the PTRD to something totally useless. Sure it can't blow up tanks if it's historically correct, however if you do not model optics and such it's totally unrealistic. You can't have one without the other.

Secondly, the PTRD takes the most skill to use out of any weapon in the game hands down. Of course, it's overpowered but it's certainly harder to kill a tank with a ptrd than a panzerfaust (I DON"T CARE IF IT"S SUPPOSE TO BLOW UP EVERY DAMN TANK IN ONE SHOT YOU GET THREE OF THEM AND CAN SHOOT THEM LIKE A ****ING SEMIAUTOMATIC ROCKET LAUNCHER). If you die in a panther from a ptrd it's your own damn fault; it's very difficult. A russian infantry man with a ATR has to lie in wait concealed, and has to usually take more than one shot to bring down a tank. At this time you are also vulnerable to german infantry etc. Also if your not aiming at the engine or ammo boxes you are going to be totally ineffective, as stated previously it's difficult. A slight angle will render your rounds useless. Killing a tank with a ptrd is one of the hardest and most rewarding things in RO. Even if it's arcady, I think some of you people should play with the class to really understand how hard it is to use.
Very well put. PTRD is the hardest and most challanging weapon to use in the entire game. You DESERVE the kill if you take out a tank with it. Most of the time, the tank will notice the muzzle flash/gunshot after the first shot, and detect you. Its increadibly frustrating for a PTRD soldier attempting to take out a tank. An Angled tank makes PTRD useless, infantry are all over you, and the tank itself is very hard. I kill tanks all the time as German with Panzerfaust, and its not rewarding or earned. Its as easy as eating cake taking out a tank with Faust. With PTRD, even 1 tank kill in the entire game is rewarding and satisfying.

I made a suggestion so that you whiners might agree on something, and add a bit more realism, while us players can actually enjoy using a PTRD with tons of challange. For those people who claim to take out tanks in a couple of shots with ease, good for you, but its much harder for the rest of us. I mastered every part and class in RO, except the Russian AT, its that hard. Others who say PTRD is OVERPOWERED are just silly. Sure, its unrealistic, but ptrd is NOT overpowered. Overpowered is a Panzerfaust. (But since its very easy to use in real life, it will let it fly by). YOU DESERVE TO DIE HORRIBLY IF YOU ARE IN A TANK AND KILLED BY A PTRD! Who can't hear that loud gunshot, and that massive muzzle flash that says "hit me, I am right here!". Also the fact that you didn't team tank either. (Team tankers can see very well, and that gunner can pick off infantry with ease, commander than spot infantry with ease).
 
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Kipper

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 25, 2006
707
114
0
Connecticut, United States
I love using the PTRD. I use it all the time. I still think it should be made down to historical levels as well. Keep in mind, the PTRD wasn't just used to fight armored vehicles. It can be used against MG positions and such.
 

Dheepan

FNG / Fresh Meat
For rommel: You don't seem to get it. You can't model the weapon correctly without those features.

The ptrd is both over powered and at the same time not close to being equal to german antitank classes. Weakening the weapon to make it more realistic without it's realistic targets (optics) is just as flawed, if not more so than the current compromise. What that creates is in essence a useless weapon that would unrealistically imbalance the game.

And again I think more of you should play the class, because although the ptrd gives you a chance against tanks it doesn't make you a tank destroyer. It's a very limited and strategic weapon as is, which takes a lot of skill to learn how to use.
 

Dr. Peter Venkman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 21, 2006
871
68
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California
Forget all of these suggestions for a moment and let me take you for a spin:

The PTRD serves no purpose; it is both stupid in that it is overpowered compared to its historical aspects and pretty much worthless in it's implementation.

Adding anti-tank grenade models for satchel charges won't work either, because it still comes off as a cheap kill. I absolutely hate getting killed by a lone satchelman who crept around the back of my tank, threw on a few satchels, and completely destroyed my tank with a 8 pound HE device. Konigsplatz is notorious for this and I hate playing that map sometimes.

I propose removing the PTRD completely and making more russian tanks available when merited; Arad comes immediately to my mind. However, this should only be done when the Tank combat gets fixed. I almost had a hernia after a T34 blew up my angled Tiger I today.
 
F

Field Marshal Rommel

Guest
Dheepan said:
And again I think more of you should play the class, because although the ptrd gives you a chance against tanks it doesn't make you a tank destroyer. It's a very limited and strategic weapon as is, which takes a lot of skill to learn how to use.
I do play the class especially on Berezina and usually Im right at the top of the list even though I hardly ever play on the Soviet side (as infantry anyways).
"The PTRD takes skill" and you have to "learn how to use it"

*Screams and slowly rippes his hair out

You want to down a Panzer then aim for the PzIII/PzIV viewing slit (slightly under and to the left) at any range for a 1 shot kill aim for the sides around the shovel and a wonderful 2 shot kill. Aim for the rear of a Tiger I again an amazing 2 shot kill. The only thing you have to do is stay clear of the MG fire. If you can do that stay still on your belly for long periods of time as well as aiming then you will be more than successful with the PTRD . If anyone still has trouble using the PTRD I suggest you look over the data sheets which illustrates these "weak spots" on tanks. Right now with the addtion of the binocs an update ago its even easier to spot these weak spots on tanks from long distances making the PTRD even more dangerous than ever. There was a PTRD Demo that showed a guy killing every tank ethier a single or a couple of shots although I can find it it should be easy to make one.

Dheepan said:
the ptrd is both over powered and at the same time not close to being equal to german antitank classes.
It should never be anywhere close to the German antitank class. Simple reason
PF 60:200mm at 100m
PTRD: 35mm at 100m

Also this game is ment to be realistic just because 1 side has a weapon does not mean the other should get a "counter". All it means is you have to work harder as a team to win.

Dr.Peter Venkman said:
hernia after a T34 blew up my angled Tiger I today.
Me too a Kv-1s 1 shot killed me on my frontal armor!:mad:

Dr.Peter Venkman said:
I propose removing the PTRD completely and making more russian tanks available when merited; Arad comes immediately to my mind.
Yes good idea.

Dheepan said:
more realistic without it's realistic targets (optics) is just as flawed
Not really even if these targets were in game:

1. The optics would be difficult to hit.
2. There would have to be a point system or no one would shoot the optics.
3. Targets like the crew would be invulnerble due to armor except in the PzIII/Stug III (sides only) and in PzIV F1/F2 (sides*) because of the PTRD's lack of penetration.
4. Other targets like the turret ring could be useful but Im not sure the PTRD could damage it and again there would have to be a point system for disabling tank parts.
5. adding these features would take alot of hard coding and testing.

but as I said first fix the weapon then if the engine allows add the new features. After all theres no point in upgrading a "broken" gun it would just make the situation worse.

*I doubt you can hit the tank crew from the rear because of the engine.
 
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Mormegil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
4,178
574
0
Nargothrond
No, because that would be asking for new features to be added.Why add new features to a"broken" weapon? Surely fixing it should take priority! I am just interrested in getting the weapon to work correctly then later if its possible with this engine add these new features.
Reducing the power of the PTRD would not "correct" it either. That's because you still can't hit optics, MGs, etc. So it wouldn't be correct either, because it would cause no damage, when we know IRL it did cause damage.

So you can't correct it without correcting the target.

but as I said first fix the weapon then if the engine allows add the new features. After all theres no point in upgrading a "broken" gun it would just make the situation worse.
This is NOT going to happen. Fixing the weapon without adding in it's true targets, means the Devs would have to rebalance EVERY map that has the PTRD, and do a whole crap load of testing.

They want realism, but they also want playability.

And trust me, they KNOW the PTRD is overpowered.


Edit: typo
 
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snake byte..

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 27, 2006
659
0
0
117
FOXHOLE NEAR YOU
rather than arguing guys just join IC as the germans do not get fausts till autumn 43;) will be interesting on all our early war tank maps:D can they master the ptrd. Join up to find out..
 
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