Stop the incredibly easy and unbelievable hipfiring MGs!!!

[Gaizokubanou]

So it's almost laughable to think that a German MG team would work together to make sure they were hipfire-ready at all times, given all the complications (not even counting the fact that any responsible NCO would ensure on principle that the MG-34 was well protected and placed).

Thus, it stands to reason that in RO2, hipfire 'stance' should be an option of last resort, not the default mode the weapon is carried in.

Now, the Soviets, on the other hand... I can totally see some Ivan using the DP-28 from the hip every now and then. The DP-28 has far fewer difficulties involved in assuming a firing position.

BTW Have you noticed that on the picture you provided, EVERYONE is not exactly holding their gun ready to fire?

Onto this quote, so it's less laughable that if you carry a MG34 and knew that enemies were likely to be within 150m of you (hint, that's every map in RO2), you would carry your MG34 unloaded and not ready to fire if you stumbled onto an enemy?

I think that's just pure armchair general logic gone wrong. You are trying to fit the HMG role (where you have a team carrying ammo with tripod and scope) into the LMG role in very particular setting where every soldier knew combat was imminent as in 10 ~ 15 seconds walk away from getting shot at.

Then there is the question of choice that matter; What exactly would you be doing other than being ready to hipfire a MG34 if you had one in RO2 and were standing still? What other logical alternative is there? Making hipfire non default stance when standing still does nothing but to make a sensible player press an extra button every time he stops.

 

[Nikita]

Bleghhhhhhhh, now that I've woken up and reread my post I've realized it's seriously incoherent... Between r5cya's post and the fact that I'd been reading about Nanking massacre denial, my first knee-jerk reaction at 2AM was "POST! THS CANOT GO UNNSWERED!" Need to just go to sleep next time.

I retract point 2 completely (That MG-34 DOES have an assault magazine attached). I qualify point 1 as occuring only when caught off guard at close range once established in a static position.

You cant do this in a game.
But they did not only have the large boxes, but assault drums.. as you probably mean by the 50 round belts.

True, you can't do this in the game--but I wasn't talking about the game. I was talking about the actual battle of Stalingrad, where you actually WOULD be accompanied by two assistants.

And to be honest, I'm not exactly sure what I meant. I'll concede that too and remove the "Load MG34" step from my earlier post.

BTW Have you noticed that on the picture you provided, EVERYONE is not exactly holding their gun ready to fire?

The picture is actually a still from a well-known bit of stock footage. It's cut several times, but in an earlier shot at that same house corner, several of the men are indeed aiming their rifles, and one of them fires a shot. They are still at least within several hundred yards of the frontline. See the video below at 0:23. And again at 1:14. And AGAIN at 1:19. You can see exactly the same brick pattern and broken pipes in the wall behind the troops in both the image and the video.

Here's another picture. Still the same wall.


Wehrmacht in Stalingrad (1942-1943) - YouTube


In general, Gaizokubanou, you also fail to realize that I'm talking about the actual battle of Stalingrad. I'm trying to outline a couple factors that deomonstrate that German troops would not be hipfire-ready at every moment during the fighting.

I will add more to this post later...

 

[Victhor-ASH]

Too much work for Tripwire we can only hope, but I don't really think anything would be modified into the future, is like eh it is good like it is now. But would be cool to have a feature to move with your mg shouldered and then position it to fire maybe to make it harder while going in hipfiring position also had a feature to go into iron sights with the mg, but restrict movement and increase recoil of the weapon to madness. In my opinion that would be pretty beasty. Also if the weapon can reload when standing still why can't the barell be changed also?

,

Also I recall from a game which had a system to go with the Mg into iron sights, it was so good implemented that you could bypod almost on any surface also making it a lot more balanced for the Mg. It had like a bypod feature which was very responsive you could go bypod on soldiers backs or on any surface you came in contact with even if the MG was appearing to be flying on some surfaces.

 

[Gaizokubanou]

In general, Gaizokubanou, you also fail to realize that I'm talking about the actual battle of Stalingrad. I'm trying to outline a couple factors that deomonstrate that German troops would not be hipfire-ready at every moment during the fighting.

I will add more to this post later...

No I do realize that, and if RO2 was say, as big as ARMA series in scale then yes I agree completely.

But RO2 is limited to representing pitched battles in close to mid range. Why are you keep trying to bring up examples of soldier behaviors that are far outside of the scope of RO2?

And once again, what else is there for MG34 user to do when standing still? There is nothing, absolutely nothing else for MG34 user to do than preparing the weapon for possible hipfire. So why add a button to do something that'll just happen every single time without any thought put into it? It'll just turn MG class much clunkier since now MG class will just press extra button every time they stop.

 

[Clowndoe]

Ok, then, how about the MGer only has to press the hip-stance button when in movement. If he's standing still he automatically raises the MG, with the same delay obviously to prevent exploitation.

 

[Nikita]

But RO2 is limited to representing pitched battles in close to mid range. Why are you keep trying to bring up examples of soldier behaviors that are far outside of the scope of RO2?

And once again, what else is there for MG34 user to do when standing still? There is nothing, absolutely nothing else for MG34 user to do than preparing the weapon for possible hipfire. So why add a button to do something that'll just happen every single time without any thought put into it? It'll just turn MG class much clunkier since now MG class will just press extra button every time they stop.

First, who said RO2 is limited to close to mid range? What about Fallen Fighters? Mamayev Kurgan? Custom maps like Ogledow? Even some parts of Spartanovka and Commissar's House are fairly open. With more custom maps in the works, engagement ranges are only going to increase.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Next, lets say a rifleman is standing still. By your logic, there is nothing for the rifleman to do other than go into iron sights. Why add a button in RO2 when any soldier standing still would logically raise his weapon to eye level to be 'prepared'? We've stopped for a minute--everyone aim down your sights!

Hmmm... let's see... why wouldn't a rifleman raise his weapon every time he took a breather? Because it takes effort. Your average rifleman was fighting yesterday, the day before that, and he was fighting in Rostov last month. Does he have something better do do when standing still? Yes! He can rest. He can hold the rifle comfortably, keeping the stock under his arm.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, take the MG-34. It weighs 26 pounds. Your machine gunner was carrying it yesterday, the day before that, and he was carrying it in Rostov last month. Does he have something better to do besides assume hipfiring stance when stationary, holding the whole weapon's weight by the pistol grip, shoulder sling, and bipod?

Again, the answer is YES. He can REST. He can carry the machine gun close to his body, leave it hanging from a shoulder, hold it in one hand using the carry handle, or rest it on his shoulder. THAT is what the soldier SHOULD naturally do, just like how no competent RO2 player stays in iron sights 100% of the time when stationary.

The 'press iron sights to hipfire' solution I'm proposing reflects a player impulse. "Shiesse! I can't rest now! I hear enemies in the next room! Panic button!" Then, and only then, as an option of last resort, does the machine gunner assume the tiring, cumbersome hipfiring stance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There's one thing I'm unclear about with your proposal, Gaizo. How do you want the soldier to move in "default stationary hipfire mode"? Are you happy with him jogging around with the weapon at the ready? Or are you against jogging hipfire, and suggesting that when jogging and not stationary, the weapon should be carried in a "non-hipfiring" stance?

If you support jogging hipfire, then I recommend you travel to a state where automatic firearms are legal and try controlling a fully automatic burst for yourself.

Alternatively, if you feel that the player should exit hipfiring stance when jogging, then your system is even clunkier than my suggestion, as the player can't walk or shuffle while hipfiring, which is certainly possible.

If my suggestion were implemented, the player COULD go into hipfire every time he were stationary. BUT, he'd have to weigh the sacrifice of nearly all mobility (can only move at a walk) against the added firepower. So, I daresay that with this system, people would not habitually enter hipfire as soon as they stopped for a moment.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

Very good ideea Nikita but why not expand it into a feature, like when relaxing and putting your weapon on your shoulder, the feature already exists in game it also has animation, why not make it something like soldiers could consume less stamina when resting the gun on theyr shoulder, this feature would be most welcomed on very large maps so that you could run more than usual when your gun is ready to fire in your hands. Men of war has such a system and it works like a charm. Red orchestra 2 has all the animations for it so why not implement it?

Also definetly why wouldn't the mg have an animation or something to justify his large weight because it is pretty dumb when soldiers start running with these overweight guns like they are some kind of plastic toys. Something needs to be done, I know that many think if the feature from Ostfront would be implemented would look just like in the first game, but why not update it to the RO 2 mechanics it would be a huge improvement for the LMG class. Or why not also make use of the Iron sights, in Arma 2 has such a feature and you could position the mg to any surface, so why not make the feature of going bypod with the mg much more reliable like going bypod on any surface that you can position the mg even a friendly soldiers back.

That is the huge limitation and problem we have now with the mg it can't be positioned on any surface that you come across.

 

[MtnMan01]

I have also read of Soldiers using there MG34's as heavy SMG,,You can appreciate why these pic would be rare, few if any were taken when in CQC,,If one soldier did it you can be sure many did
when the time called for it,,just common sense,,,


Note the use of the sling for support, the soldier using his MG34 as a "heavy sub machinegun".

http://bergflak.com/Mgrem.html

 

[Gaizokubanou]

First, who said RO2 is limited to close to mid range? What about Fallen Fighters? Mamayev Kurgan? Custom maps like Ogledow? Even some parts of Spartanovka and Commissar's House are fairly open. With more custom maps in the works, engagement ranges are only going to increase.

Neither of the two official map really calls for HMG role that you keep referring back to, which is setting up the MG on tripod then shooting 300m+. And you don't really get into many long range shootouts there with very small exceptions where people shoot across the entire map.

On custom maps you have a point and I accept that it's a good probability that it's going to feature more larger maps which TWI may want to account for.

Next, lets say a rifleman is standing still. By your logic, there is nothing for the rifleman to do other than go into iron sights. Why add a button in RO2 when any soldier standing still would logically raise his weapon to eye level to be 'prepared'? We've stopped for a minute--everyone aim down your sights!

Hmmm... let's see... why wouldn't a rifleman raise his weapon every time he took a breather? Because it takes effort. Your average rifleman was fighting yesterday, the day before that, and he was fighting in Rostov last month. Does he have something better do do when standing still? Yes! He can rest. He can hold the rifle comfortably, keeping the stock under his arm.

Or because aiming down the sight does 3 things. First, it takes time to perform the animation. Second, it limits your peripheral vision (at least it was suppose to except that peripheral vision indicator can overcome this way too much). Third is minor, but you can't melee in it.

For MG it's just one factor which is animation time.

Now, take the MG-34. It weighs 26 pounds. Your machine gunner was carrying it yesterday, the day before that, and he was carrying it in Rostov last month. Does he have something better to do besides assume hipfiring stance when stationary, holding the whole weapon's weight by the pistol grip, shoulder sling, and bipod?

Again, the answer is YES. He can REST. He can carry the machine gun close to his body, leave it hanging from a shoulder, hold it in one hand using the carry handle, or rest it on his shoulder. THAT is what the soldier SHOULD naturally do, just like how no competent RO2 player stays in iron sights 100% of the time when stationary.

Why should that kind of resting be reflected in the game mechanic? The only sort of resting featured involves stamina which is to restrict sprinting. Holding that 30lb gun around the waist level for general directional spraying is no where near as physical demanding as running as fast as you can with that 30lb gun.

There's one thing I'm unclear about with your proposal, Gaizo. How do you want the soldier to move in "default stationary hipfire mode"? Are you happy with him jogging around with the weapon at the ready? Or are you against jogging hipfire, and suggesting that when jogging and not stationary, the weapon should be carried in a "non-hipfiring" stance?

If you support jogging hipfire, then I recommend you travel to a state where automatic firearms are legal and try controlling a fully automatic burst for yourself.

Alternatively, if you feel that the player should exit hipfiring stance when jogging, then your system is even clunkier than my suggestion, as the player can't walk or shuffle while hipfiring, which is certainly possible.

If my suggestion were implemented, the player COULD go into hipfire every time he were stationary. BUT, he'd have to weigh the sacrifice of nearly all mobility (can only move at a walk) against the added firepower. So, I daresay that with this system, people would not habitually enter hipfire as soon as they stopped for a moment.

OMG dude, if you actually read my posts... this is like the third time I'm stating that I'm completely against firing MGs while moving in crouched and standing position (not even sure if it's even possible to shoot while moving in prone currently).

If you think my suggestion is clunkier then you are saying that sprinting mechanic is just clunky to begin with because that's what I was referring to the whole time, just put all of the restrictions from sprinting (minus the stamina drain) into any crouched/standing movement for MG user.

And why would you want the MGer to walk while shooting MG? That tiny bit of mobility is part of what's making MGs amazing in close quarter shootout. Although to be fair your proposition is better if shooting LMG while walking should be reflected in the game. I think not but others may think it's part of close range tactical shooting.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

But for bigger maps would be cool to have a feature to rest your weapon on the shoulder the animation is already in but it would be cool if it could be twiched like on big maps making it a feature to run faster or consume less stamina will resting the weapon on your shoulder and of course you don't have any weapon in your arms, maybe this way fist fighting might also be implemented?

 

[Gaizokubanou]

But for bigger maps would be cool to have a feature to rest your weapon on the shoulder the animation is already in but it would be cool if it could be twiched like on big maps making it a feature to run faster or consume less stamina will resting the weapon on your shoulder and of course you don't have any weapon in your arms, maybe this way fist fighting might also be implemented?

If TWI wants to bring in huge maps and support modders from keep on making such maps, yes that would be pretty neat to have movement/stamina increase while holstering your weapon.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

Also the animation for holstering are already in the game. The mg needs much lesser restrictions for placing mgs like in Arma 2 you could bypod the mg everywhere, would be cool to bypod it on a persons back. But now it has serious limitations, something needs to be done, better sacrifice on how the bypod would look than sacrifice the mechanics. But Im ok with a carrying your mg in shoulder position, also they said that would add pickable magasines and all of that I don't see them in the game, if the game is supposed to be realistic, would be very realistic to make a feature so that you can pick higher number of magasines but you get too heavy and you get much slower. I saw on a map people picking up Mosin nagants with 50 ammo striper clips for the gun, that is absurde, imagine same thing for the lmg-s.

Also the beta preview video show a pickable inventory, why doesn't the game have it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vi...id=annotation_241687&v=zzFSBVuD-Co&feature=iv

 

[Nikita]

Or because aiming down the sight does 3 things. First, it takes time to perform the animation. Second, it limits your peripheral vision (at least it was suppose to except that peripheral vision indicator can overcome this way too much). Third is minor, but you can't melee in it.

For MG it's just one factor which is animation time.

It also limits your mobility, and slows the rate at which you turn around. Those should also be reflected for the LMGs.

Why should that kind of resting be reflected in the game mechanic? The only sort of resting featured involves stamina which is to restrict sprinting. Holding that 30lb gun around the waist level for general directional spraying is no where near as physical demanding as running as fast as you can with that 30lb gun.

Why shouldn't it be? The game penalizes you for aiming and holding your rifle unsupported for too long. True, if I were to go out right now and hold a 25-pound rock bar (large crowbar) from the waist for three minutes, it would be laughably easy. Now, if I were to hike with it every day for five hours for a week, sprinting across roads and open ground with it every so often, and then hold it from the waist, it'd still be trivial--but I would soooo much rather just rest it on my shoulder after all that running, marching, and firing.

OMG dude, if you actually read my posts... this is like the third time I'm stating that I'm completely against firing MGs while moving in crouched and standing position (not even sure if it's even possible to shoot while moving in prone currently).

If you think my suggestion is clunkier then you are saying that sprinting mechanic is just clunky to begin with because that's what I was referring to the whole time, just put all of the restrictions from sprinting (minus the stamina drain) into any crouched/standing movement for MG user.

And why would you want the MGer to walk while shooting MG? That tiny bit of mobility is part of what's making MGs amazing in close quarter shootout. Although to be fair your proposition is better if shooting LMG while walking should be reflected in the game. I think not but others may think it's part of close range tactical shooting.

Sorry if I didn't catch your point of view earlier. Thanks for answering. Thankfully, hipfiring while moving in prone is impossible.

If hipfiring is to be impossible while moving, then, hitting the movement keys while hipfiring would mean the player would immediately abandon hipfire mode.

Similar to how holding shift while in iron sights and then moving results in a sudden, unintentional sprint. That is indeed kind of clunky in my opinion. (I play Classic and therefore have to deal with that mechanic far less due to shift-zoom's absence).

Given, however, that a player would only use hipfire when surprised under your system (as he can't move while using it, preventing him from using it well offensively), chances are that in the heat of combat, with an enemy just meters away and taking aim, he's going to hit a movement key at the same time he clicks the mouse button to fire.

I still think the iron sights toggle between a slow-walk hipfiring and a jogging non-hipfiring stance is more intuitive. We can certainly agree to disagree, however.

 

[PhoenixDragon]

Or why not also make use of the Iron sights, in Arma 2 has such a feature and you could position the mg to any surface, so why not make the feature of going bypod with the mg much more reliable like going bypod on any surface that you can position the mg even a friendly soldiers back.

The mg needs much lesser restrictions for placing mgs like in Arma 2 you could bypod the mg everywhere, would be cool to bypod it on a persons back.

Arma 2 doesn't have any such feature. It has no form of deploying your weapon on a bipod or bracing it on terrain. It simply abstracts the effects of a bipod by giving low recoil when you're prone. RO2 doesn't abstract this detail out like Arma does, so it's not surprising that the Arma method feels less restrictive.

 

[Gaizokubanou]

I still think the iron sights toggle between a slow-walk hipfiring and a jogging non-hipfiring stance is more intuitive. We can certainly agree to disagree, however.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that your suggestion makes sense for bigger maps and if shooting while very slowly walking needs to be modeled in for LMGs (it may very well be, I mean I don't think so but I'm not small arms tactics master so I concede that I just don't know enough to make conclusion on this).

I'm just speaking in framework of official maps that are out by TWI. And it's a very tiny disagreement anyway

I think we all agreed that LMGs could use better weapon handling model in terms of swing inertia and larger collision. That and definitely no light jogging while shooting lol

Arma 2 doesn't have any such feature. It has no form of deploying your weapon on a bipod or bracing it on terrain. It simply abstracts the effects of a bipod by giving low recoil when you're prone. RO2 doesn't abstract this detail out like Arma does, so it's not surprising that the Arma method feels less restrictive.

True, only other FPS I played with deployable bipod was BF3, and that game actually lacked certain features that RO2 has like sliding across windowframe and other such deployable objects and moving in prone while deployed.

 

[ross]

Arma 2 doesn't have any such feature. It has no form of deploying your weapon on a bipod or bracing it on terrain. It simply abstracts the effects of a bipod by giving low recoil when you're prone. RO2 doesn't abstract this detail out like Arma does, so it's not surprising that the Arma method feels less restrictive.

Exactly. Some mods added a proper 'deploy bipod' feature... and it still only worked when you go prone.

MGs in ArmA 2 are really poorly implemented and handle like crap. Other games with actual deployable bipods I can think of - BF3 and Day of Defeat: Source - are both pretty damn poor compared to RO2's MG system.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

Yes if has, many modders have modified features of the game ArmA 2 ACE 2 Feature: Weapon Deployment - YouTube and added deployable bypods, I know it is in the latest patches. Eventough you fire auto with the mg the recoil is so high in Arma 2 that you can't hit anything. My point is why not implement bypoding as an action that can be overtake on any surface like putting your bypod up or down, and while bypod you can't move the soldier the current system is pretty limited they modded this for Arma 2 updates bipod1.wmv - YouTube

 

[PhoenixDragon]

Yes if has, many modders have modified features of the game

...

and added deployable bypods, I know it is in the latest patches.

No, it is not in the latest "patches." There is a crude implementation of it in a mod someone made, but it's not in the base game, and it's very basic when compared to RO2.

And no, I don't think you get to count mods for "features" of the base game. Otherwise we could say that pistols firing HE tank shells is a "feature" of RO2 (Funny what you can do when figuring out how to mod stuff in... though I still want to see the MG34 firing rag-doll corpses).

 

[Victhor-ASH]

Operation arrowhead had this specific feature for mg-s, they positioned automatically and reduced recoil when you were close to a bypodable surface.

 

[ross]

That's funny, because I don't recall ever seeing such a mechanic while I was playing.