StG44 in 1942?

[SheepDip]

Again people. There are varying sources with varying information on where the MKb was, or could have been during 1942. It's all speculative though. What is the point in us banging on about it?

No one will be able to catagorically prove it was there, just as I imagine no one can catagorically prove it was not there. Even with a photograph, or lack there-of.

What else is there to discuss? TWI aren't going to be taking it out. Even if they can't find the evidence they used initially.

It did exist during the Stalingrad campaign, regardless of circumstance - even if you have to hypothetically imagine it being airdropped in after the encirclement.

It is in the game as a hero weapon and will be in very limited numbers.

Can we please get over it now?

 

[Peter.Steele]

AK-47: The Weapon that Changed the Face of War.
By Larry Kahaner

Interesting ... since the fighting around Cholm was from about January to April 1942 ...

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

AK-47: The Weapon that Changed the Face of War.
By Larry Kahaner

I remember reading about that somewhere, but only the vague details of it, not specific dates.

 

[Hans Ludwig]

So I believe the answer to the question if they were used in Stalingrad is a no. But at the same time it proves they were used in 1942, just south of Leningrad.

 

[Peter.Steele]

So I believe the answer to the question if they were used in Stalingrad is a no. But at the same time it proves they were used in 1942, just south of Leningrad.

Well, here's the thing. If your documentation is genuine - and whether or not it is I do not know - then it actually makes it even more likely that the gun in question was at Stalingrad, since that means that it was obviously available in pretty good numbers ...

Now, that said, I do have some concerns about that source material since he says that they renamed the MKb.42 as the StG, when they are two quite different rifles.

 

[Hans Ludwig]

Now, that said, I do have some concerns about that source material since he says that they renamed the MKb.42 as the StG, when they are two quite different rifles.

MP 43, MP 44, and StG 44 were different designations for what was essentially the same rifle, with minor updates in production. The variety in nomenclatures resulted from the complicated bureaucracy in Nazi Germany. Developed from the Mkb 42(H) "machine carbine", the StG44 combined the characteristics of a carbine, submachine gun and automatic rifle. StG is an abbreviation of Sturmgewehr. The name was chosen for propaganda reasons and literally means "storm rifle" as in "to storm an enemy position" (i.e. "assault", leading to the modern terminology "assault rifle"). After the adoption of the StG 44, the English translation "assault rifle" became the accepted designation for this type of infantry small arm.

SOURCE

 

[[TW]Ramm-Jaeger]

So I believe the answer to the question if they were used in Stalingrad is a no.

See stating something over and over again does not make it true. And as we've said before, the standard for TWI is could a weapon possibly be there, or could someone prove it wasn't there.

 

[Hans Ludwig]

See stating something over and over again does not make it true. And as we've said before, the standard for TWI is could a weapon possibly be there, or could someone prove it wasn't there.

I haven't stated anything over and over again. I stated that it was used in 1942 south of Leningrad.

I haven't invested so heavily into this argument that both sides have done. This mean if I dig something up that will support its use in Stalingrad, I would be more than happy to post it. Unfortunately it's hard to find any information to support it's use in Stalingrad other than hearsay and one picture. So I was trying to hint that this problem can be solved by a creation of map titled Cholm.

 

[hockeywarrior]

Wait, wasn't this thread locked? lol ...

 

[Hans Ludwig]

Wait, wasn't this thread locked? lol ...

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=622463&postcount=107

 

[skittlesareyum47]

This is exactly the direction YoSH was trying to keep this thread from going. Keep it cool or we'll lock the thread again.

Also You can't say the MkB "clearly never made it to Stalingrad" because there is no proof it wasn't there. We're still digging for the photo of the MkB in Stalingrad. We dug it up a couple of years ago when we were researching weapons for the game but need to find it again.

It is in one of the photos that is included in "Stalingrad" By Antony Beevor. I am looking at it right now.

EDIT: Btw, It is of a Russian carrying a captured mkb, he is running AWAY fro mthe camera so you can't see the full thing, how ever you can see the front half of it,m including the barrel and iron site, which is unmistakibly an STG, no doubt. Besides if you look at it you can see no other type of weapon would even look like it, be it a ppsh or a g43 or anything. It IS an Stg.

 

[Peter.Steele]

SOURCE

Argumentum ad Wikipediam is pretty much the new version of Godwin's Law.

Regardless, that's like saying that the Kar 98k and the M38 are the same rifle - they're both shortish, feature a cock-on-open bolt action, fed from an internal non-removable box magazine, both got a 5 round capacity, both have a wood stock ... etc.

 

[Dwin]

So I believe the answer to the question if they were used in Stalingrad is a no. But at the same time it proves they were used in 1942, just south of Leningrad.

No, it shows that the Mkb could have been dropped into Stalingrad the same way it was dropped into Cholm.

 

[Hans Ludwig]

No, it shows that the Mkb could have been dropped into Stalingrad the same way it was dropped into Cholm.

If it "could have" been dropped, then why isn't documented? Stalingrad was better known, documented, filmed than areas south of Leningrad.

Future Weapons
By Kevin Dockery

 

[LemoN]

Stalingrad was better known, documented, filmed than areas south of Leningrad.

I wouldn't exactly say that.
The Demjansk Kessel (which Cholm, aka Festung Cholm was a part of) basically was the proto Stalingrad.

A large number of units were successfully supplied by air over the course of a few months, which led to Hitler's and G

 

[Reise]

So is the argument at this point that the MKb.42 rifles couldn't have made their way to Stalingrad, even though they were possibly previously used elsewhere during the breakthrough of Cholm?

Come on, people.

 

[hockeywarrior]

I wouldn't exactly say that.
The Demjansk Kessel (which Cholm, aka Festung Cholm was a part of) basically was the proto Stalingrad.

A large number of units were successfully supplied by air over the course of a few months, which led to Hitler's and G

 

[SheepDip]

So I was trying to hint that this problem can be solved by a creation of map titled Cholm.

That'll be really good in a game based around Stalingrad.

So I believe the answer to the question if they were used in Stalingrad is a no. But at the same time it proves they were used in 1942, just south of Leningrad.

Hans why exactly are you posting articles from sources saying quite plainly that the weapon existed well before the Stalingrad offensive started - then saying that it couldn't possibly be there?

What sort of backwards arse logic is that? How can you say that NONE of the weapons airdropped to Cholm (for example) didn't make their way to Stalingrad? Or that NO similar airdrops occurred over Stalingrad? What happened inside Stalingrad may be well documented to a certain extent but the fact that such a large contingent of those involved died (especially German POW's) means we will never get everything 100% correct.

You cannot assume just because it isn't documented that it never happened.
The fact that the weapon existed surely means that without proof - if you're going to lean in any direction it is that it could have been there?

 

[LemoN]

There is strong evidence that the use of the Mkb.42 in Cholm is false. The story first showed up in "Das Sturmgewehr in Wehrkunde" (1953) without specific evidence and since then has popped up in various poorly researched books.

Evidence supporting it:
None except a couple of books, most of which are simply quoting one book.

Evidence against it:
By June 1942 only 50 Mkb.42 prototypes have been completed (Cholm lasted from Jan. to May 5th 1942). All of them were prototypes used for testing by the Heer.

A hand full of prototypes will not be dropped into a high risk pocket while the testing at home hasn't even started! And even if it would have started, you won't drop prototypes while the overall evaluation is still going on.

Even if they would have "field tested" it in Cholm, why wait a year until you do the next field test? (April 1943)

Why risk most of your prototypes for an airdrop that had a loss ratio of 30% (Cholm aircraft loss ratio), you can't have official observers and have a high chance to never get any reports back?

 

[Mormegil]

Since most agree it's fine in game, but not necessarily historically accurate, I suggest this thread gets moved to the history section.