Stalingrad Kessel is fundamentally flawed

[MeFirst]

A map is balanced for me when the following applies:

Both teams have the same ammount of players and the same level of skill and teamwork. There is a 50-50 chance for a team to win the map. I dont really see that on Stalingrad Kessel. Regardless of the skill of the team, the obstacles for the allied team are much higher as for the axis team. Call that what you want (and think about that what you want) but this is not balanced.

 

[LugNut]

I'm happy it's unbalanced, I don't think it should be winnable from either side in a 50/50 ratio, I like the challenge. My favorite map is Bridges and (in Classic anyway) it's very, very hard to win, but it provides some of the most intense and down to the wire battles I've experienced in RO2.

What I don't like about the map is that it's way too easy to lock the attackers in their first spawn with easy to get to and hold over watch positions and with crossfire from the B side. If the defenders get into those, it's extremely difficult to dislodge them. I like a tough battle, but no likes to spend 30 minutes trapped in your initial spawn. I'd prefer more options for the defenders to get out of their spawn and fight back, more smoke in the initial spawn area more spots to counter snipe the defenders.

 

[MeFirst]

50-50 doesnt mean that this is the exact win/loose radio (or the goal of it). However both teams should have equal chances to win a map. While the axis have pretty superb positions on the map you could try to balance the map buy giving the allied team a wider weapon loadout.

 

[Rattler]

Rattler, you only ever play as Axis, as you have said before. This means that you almost always play on the stacked team in RO2 (this is well established).

Therefore, your opinions regarding map balance and gameplay are so biased that they are incorrect because being on a stacked team hides the flaws in the map design from you.

Regardless, this thread pertains to Stalingrad Kessel, where even someone as naive as yourself should clearly see that there is a problem with the map layout and design.

Stalingrad Kessel is not unbalanced map imo because I believe I have lost the same amount of matches as the matches I've won on this map. If the russians capture the first two objectives from the start, they can easily capture the rest very fast if they play right.

But that said, you are changing your statement to the same old "Axis team is stacked", which is not the same as "***** map is flawed".

In the same way I can say that Station is flawed but its not. Its all about the teams. Red Orchestra is one of those games that features UNBALANCED maps which have to be mastered by the teams using different tactics to win and this is making the game unique.

 

[Weekend Frontovik]

id say it worked fairly well...

Also if you guys base your asumptions on pubby 64 player servers than well.. almost every map is flawed. The big Proplem IS that you are robbed of flanking options due to "combat area" bull****...

for example, a clever ninja could go through C and into the big building on the axis side and shot and hold it for some time.

I'm a fairly casual RO player (though I've played since Ostfront). I don't have the time or desire to play in a clan, I just want to hop on and play some RO for a couple hours when I get home, so yes. I base my expectations on "pubby" servers and 64-players, because that's usually what's available for me to jump into and what I have fun with.

I'm not going to constrain myself to the awful "classic" game mode and tiny servers.

 

[Kowalczyk]

Pretty surprised today, Allies won A fairly easily for both rounds! But then they got slowed down with B and C and eventually lost both rounds ...

 

[Drecks]

How typical !! This not goes for all in this thread but I see quite some names in this topic discussing the balance of a former custom map. So funny as when it was in development you guys where probably playing Spartanovka or Appartments.

Now it would be nice if you guys would join servers running custom maps who are in development now
so you wont have to discuss their balance somewhere march 2014.

Just a thought........

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

This map is fine.

And what he said:

How typical !! This not goes for all in this thread but I see quite some names in this topic discussing the balance of a former custom map. So funny as when it was in development you guys where probably playing Spartanovka or Appartments.

Now it would be nice if you guys would join servers running custom maps who are in development now
so you wont have to discuss their balance somewhere march 2014.

Just a thought........

 

[Spetz]

Pretty surprised today, Allies won A fairly easily for both rounds! But then they got slowed down with B and C and eventually lost both rounds ...

Two things happen on A on Stalingrad: 1) either a fast quick cap if the allies do the right thing on spawn; 2) get pinned in spawn for the whole round if they don't do the right thing at the start and take A immediately. It is very rare for the attackers to take A after 10 minutes or so. If it doesn't fall in 5 minutes, it won't fall. This is indicative of bad map design.

How typical !! This not goes for all in this thread but I see quite some names in this topic discussing the balance of a former custom map. So funny as when it was in development you guys where probably playing Spartanovka or Appartments.

Now it would be nice if you guys would join servers running custom maps who are in development now
so you wont have to discuss their balance somewhere march 2014.

Just a thought........

Unfortunately, it is not possible to get a representative sample size of enough games on a custom map to understand how it plays out. Moreover, custom maps are typically played by experienced players which means it will likely play completely differently after it becomes official due to rampant team stacking.

I have also noticed a fair few of those experienced players are Axis-only or facilitate team stacking, which is lamentable.

The best approach is one of continuous improvement to map balance by trying to flaws which become obvious after release.

A good example is the recent changes to Commissar's and ROF. These have been obvious for some time but took far too long to be implemented.

Meat grinders in flawed maps are not good for new retaining new players.

 

[how2skate_com]

If it doesn't fall in 5 minutes, it won't fall. This is indicative of bad map design.

This is indicative of any map design. I've been in teams who can't cap A on spartanovka in the first 5 minutes, well... it only makes sense we didn't get past A the entire game.

Progress can be slow, but if it stops for 5 minutes you're screwed anyways.

Okay, there are exceptions like when a good player joins and they totally get their act back together.

 

[r5cya]

this thread is about nothing more than an "opinion". one that most do not share. since it's clearly slapping the mappers in the face, I do not see why it's continuing.

 

[BlackLabel]

I'm not going to constrain myself to the awful "classic" game mode and tiny servers.

all the doors man, all the doors...

 

[GRIZZLY]

I like unbalanced maps.

RO has always been about feeling like war. It feels awesome to win as the Allies... and even if we're pushing into the last cap I can lose happily and say "Well, we gave em Hell". I honestly pity people who feel the need to strive for perfectly balanced maps "even teams, even skill, then it's 50-50"... This is war!! not baseball!

 

[r5cya]

I like unbalanced maps.

RO has always been about feeling like war. It feels awesome to win as the Allies... and even if we're pushing into the last cap I can lose happily and say "Well, we gave em Hell". I honestly pity people who feel the need to strive for perfectly balanced maps "even teams, even skill, then it's 50-50"... This is war!! not baseball!

exactly! another reason not to track stats like win/loss percentage. who cares how many wins we got? the only stat that matters is how many hours of enjoyment you have in the game! and this map provided plenty to mine!

 

[Clowndoe]

I honestly pity people who feel the need to strive for perfectly balanced maps "even teams, even skill, then it's 50-50"...

So much this. It's like I always say: "Play in the moment." This is an ideal that I even I fail to achieve 100% of the time, but just reminding myself of it makes gaming so much better. Not that they're wrong per se, but I wouldn't want to be like those StarCraft or LoL players that lose their **** over their ladder rankings.

the only stat that matters is how many hours of enjoyment you have in the game!

Amen, brother!

 

[Mikeedude]

I think their is a difference between a map that is balanced towards one side,which is the way it should be,and one where its common to fail on the first capzone.
Considering its rarely played its hard to tell which it is!

 

[Kowalczyk]

I can get behind the idea of unbalanced maps that make it more satisfying for the undergod team to win, but there comes a point where it just becomes predictable and boring to play that map, knowing that most of the time one team will win, I am sure everybody has fun playing Mamayev with the Axis steamrolling, Saipan for Allies, or some of the other maps that played differently before the last update (I think most play exactly the same now, but I havent played too much since then so I am not sure).

For me, a map might be hard for one team, but there has to be a good possibility of winning or it just becomes demotivating.

 

[TrOOper]

For me, its all about the fight! If you consider that the attacker has picked the place of their choosing to bring about the battle, they usually came with overwhelming odds to apply to the point of contact. Balance can be thrown out the window.

If we lose, but have given them a bloody nose, excites me just as much as a win. I dont have to win to enjoy the ride.

 

[Rattler]

I don't care if I loose because I love the Allies win song Our song is beyond crappy :\ At least there are guys who turn on some proper german songs from WW2 if we win

 

[Jpz38 Hetzer]

I don't care if I lose as long as we make it really tough for the other team.