Spawn issues

[HaTeMe]

yeah i agree with you on both examples. ammo boxes and weapons just disappearing is a huge annoyance.

They should make the ammo/weapons disappear/change only when theres no players around them imo, just to avoid it happening just before they reach it.

OR

Once a weapon/ammo spawned, they will stay in the same spot UNTIL someone picks them up, therefor allowing more weapons/ammo to spawn on a different place. There could only be a certain amount of ammo/weapons in a map anyway, depending on the difficulty. So when the max amount of pickups have appeared, no more can be spawned until one of them is picked up.

I dont know which one would be better, but personally Id prefer the first one.

the zeds randomly coming out of thin air is also a pain. good example i can think of is in offices in the red room. if the team is camping the bottom level and too many people move too far up or too far back, some zeds will just instantly appear in that room. if you are moving past the room quickly enough, you can see them appear in a flash out of nowhere. thing is that in that spot, there's obviously a blocked stairway that i think they are supposed to be coming up from, but they aren't coming up the stairs and climbing over the barricade like they do in other similar spots on other maps, they just instantly appear in the room.

Yeah this is a major annoyance to me, only because they spawn right inside the room, not behind the barricade like they should. God knows how many times entire team have died just because a fleshpound along with some sirens and other zeds spawned right next to us in that small room. Its not up to skill anymore when enemies spawn right behind your back giving you no warning.

Im all up for making the game harder, but this is not the way to go. Make them spawn behind the barricade and Im happy.

Btw, one another example of cheap spawning is in bedlam. Anyone who ever camped in that long hallway next to the spawn probably knows how the zeds spawn right behind that small pillar, so you can actually see them popping out of thin air.

I guess the game just thinks we cant see there because the spawnpoint is located behind a small obstacle, which might be true if they spawned ONE crawler or something but when they spawn an entire group of specimens its a different story.

 

[Undedd Jester]

with guns - you see pickup, run for it and just before you get to it, it suddenly changes into something else you don't need.

Never had this before myself, I have had it where ammo disappears, and I've had weapons change if I take my eyes off them, but never had the weapon go to change to pick it up. As far as spawns go, I dont have an issue with them disappearing, thats the thrill of the trader time limit

Lastly, zed spawns needs some work too. I know that game already has some failsafe to prevent spawning zed squads out of thin air before the player - but not in the rear. Don't get me wrong - it's nice that system places zombies on your escape route to spice up the gameplay, but spawning two fleshpounds, two sirens and a bloat in a dead-end room (with no holes/barricades they could crawl from), while one second during you were looking the other way is another thing.

Which maps were you playing on? It is a mapping issue since (from my own very limited knowledge of mapping) there is an option in the zombie spawn volume to say if a door is welded, or player is [x] distance from volume specimens aren't to spawn in that location. So its a simple fix, but again to my knowledge I don't remember anytime where it has happened to me off the top of my head in an official map. :/

 

[nutterbutter]

Read my post again.

I read your post the first time. I understand your point. Apparently you don't understand mine. You don't like that the VERY rare spawn on top of a team and I don't mind it.

If anything, players that are paying attention are less likely to be prepared, because they're too busy watching the things that they should be to notice a wizard open a trapdoor in a place that's supposed to be clear.

Yeah, that makes sense.

complete with a visual cue that lets tactically minded players factor it into their plans.

Pssst... I'll let you in on a little clue. The "visual clue" is a FP pounding on you.

And don't give me some BS about "adding a vent to a room" because barricaders like you would simply find another closed room. You want vents like that in every room and hallway? I'm fine with it but I'm sure quitea few people would complain because they couldn't find a corner to hole up.

Also, stop accusing everyone who disagrees with you of wanting every map to work like Doom2's chokepoints. No one who has posted in this thread wants that.

Sure they do. You and the others keep talking about how you want mobs to spawn outside visual range. Weeeeeelllllllll, if the mobs always spawn outside visual range then they will always spawn outside the barricade or room.

Hey, you want to play the game by putting your back a wall and mindlessly shooting in a single direction? That fine's. Seems incredibly boring to me, but hey, if that's the way you want to play, then feel free.

which you clearly skipped the first time.

No I didn't.

 

[Entangler]

I read your post the first time. I understand your point. Apparently you don't understand mine. You don't like that the VERY rare spawn on top of a team and I don't mind it.

Oh, I understand that that's what you're saying; what I don't understand is how you could justify calling that good gameplay. There are better ways to do it.

Yeah, that makes sense.

It does, actually. See, a well-coordinated team often assigns specific roles to its players, even if only implicitly: "I'll cover that side," "I'll handle the Flesh Pounds," etc. If everyone on the team knows what they are supposed to be doing, by far the team's best bet is for them to stick to it. Players in that situation should not be constantly turning around to watch their teammates at work, especially if they're spread out; even a moment spent unnecessarily distracted, or worse, trying to steal someone else's kills, can cause a daring plan to fall apart. If things are going badly for their teammates, there are other ways they can find out - the best of these being communication from the teammates in question.

Pssst... I'll let you in on a little clue. The "visual clue" is a FP pounding on you.

I was thinking a little earlier than that, buddy. You know, so that the player can actually do something about it.

And don't give me some BS about "adding a vent to a room" because barricaders like you would simply find another closed room. You want vents like that in every room and hallway? I'm fine with it but I'm sure quite a few people would complain because they couldn't find a corner to hole up.

"Barricaders like me"? Well now, sir, that alone pretty much throws your entire post out the window, as you're completely wrong about my stance. How much do you actually know about my play style? Hint: My favourite perk is Berserker.

And the vents wouldn't have to be quite that abundant in order to do their job. Apart from anything else, that would severely limit the possibilities for good level design.

Sure they do. You and the others keep talking about how you want mobs to spawn outside visual range. Weeeeeelllllllll, if the mobs always spawn outside visual range then they will always spawn outside the barricade or room.

That "observation" has me questioning your intelligence. You do know what I mean by "proper entrance", right? Surely you've seen enough of them in the official maps to get the idea. (It seems you misinterpreted my use of the word "barricade" in that context, too.) There's nothing stopping mappers from placing them in otherwise easily defensible rooms. If their proximity to the players caused the spawn function to favour them (though not to the exclusion of other nearby entrances) - and I've already stated that I think it should - and the overall spawn rate were increased as well - which I've suggested elsewhere - then holding that room from inside would actually be quite difficult.

Hey, you want to play the game by putting your back a wall and mindlessly shooting in a single direction? That fine's. Seems incredibly boring to me, but hey, if that's the way you want to play, then feel free.

Please advise how you managed to come to that conclusion without completely disregarding the part where I said "ambushing is fine".

No I didn't.

If you read it, you mustn't have comprehended it. That was the part where I said that spawn points close to the players should be favoured over distant ones, which doesn't at all fit with what you want to believe I've been saying.

 

[nutterbutter]

Oh, I understand that that's what you're saying; what I don't understand is how you could justify calling that good gameplay.

I don't need to convince you of that. You are perfectly justified in thinking what you wish. Not a thing wrong in disagreeing with me.

There are better ways to do it.

I'm sure there are. Fortunately, this isn't an either/or situation.

It does, actually.

No it doesn't. What you want, even though you say you don't, is a barricade situation. What you want is everyone to be completely safe and everything to always spawn in front of someone. That is a barricade situation no matter if it is in a room or in a hall.

I was thinking a little earlier than that, buddy. You know, so that the player can actually do something about it.

I was being facetious. Duh. People should always be paying attention.

"Barricaders like me"? Well now, sir, that alone pretty much throws your entire post out the window, as you're completely wrong about my stance. How much do you actually know about my play style? Hint: My favourite perk is Berserker.

I don't care what your favorite class is. What you want is everything to spawn in front of someone. Zerker is the absolute worst because they always expect everyone else to cover their *** while they are way out in front of everyone else. Zerkers like to run way out in front, expect people to cover them, and then to cover them as they run back when their health drops too low. They complain about not getting heals then they run right back out there.

And the vents wouldn't have to be quite that abundant in order to do their job. Apart from anything else, that would severely limit the possibilities for good level design.

Yes they would. They would have to be everywhere else people would just find a room without them. Or a hallway without them.

That "observation" has me questioning your intelligence. You do know what I mean by "proper entrance", right? Surely you've seen enough of them in the official maps to get the idea. (It seems you misinterpreted my use of the word "barricade" in that context, too.) There's nothing stopping mappers from placing them in otherwise easily defensible rooms.

You aren't thinking past stage one. You want vents in rooms? Well, according to your "rules" nothing would spawn in them as long as people could see the spawn point. Same thing down a long hallway. Want to bury the spawn point deep in the vent? Then the mobs would regularly spawn through the vents and no one would use that room or that hallway.

You want the perfect example of your suggestion? The room above the double stairs in bioticslab. That has the "ambushing" vent at the top. How many teams use that room when a dozen crawlers and stalkers drop out every 30 seconds? And you want to make it so FPs and scrakes drop out of there as well? Yeah, sure. That's good gameplay.

Please advise how you managed to come to that conclusion without completely disregarding the part where I said "ambushing is fine".

You don't want "ambushing." You may say that you want it, but your actual posts say otherwise.

In a 6 player long game, there are how many mobs? 2,000 - 2,600? I don't see a problem dropping 6 - 20 of them on top of the team (If ever. Many times it never happens) to keep the team on their toes and break up the monotony.

 

[Anemia]

Maybe the first time. But not time after time. When you first mentioned this scenario, your first thought was the m14. The M14 is a crutch. It breeds sloppy play and laziness. Same as pipe bombs, the flamer, grenades, and the grenade launchers.

Ill add my thoughts as well then =) I must say that I agree with you at some parts. I think spawn-on-head thingy is silly but it is way to rare to get all jumpy about. But I almost got a bit offended (I did not but I would I were one of those peoples^^). Seriously? How in any worlds does the flamer encourage sloppy play? It belongs to the least balanced perk (or to be honest, the most balanced perk). If you see not aiming for the head as sloppy play then Ill leave this subject since we have nothing more to talk about regarding it.

If anything should be done, it's nerfing that m14 & Crossbow back to hell. I would say that they breed sloppy teamplay at a rate of 150%.

And that Berzerks wants cover and heal is 100% natural, he takes ~90% of the teams combined damage, he works great as a meatshield (hehe^^). But now the game is so horribly imbalanced so you only need a team of sharpshooter to finish any map on any difficulty. I hope you understand what I mean. If they nerf the sharpy, everyone will be more than happy to have a zerk to take their damage instead of having their kevlar slit off by two scrakes.

/Anemia <3

 

[Entangler]

What you want, even though you say you don't, is a barricade situation. What you want is everyone to be completely safe and everything to always spawn in front of someone.

What you want is everything to spawn in front of someone.

You don't want "ambushing." You may say that you want it, but your actual posts say otherwise.

You seem to think yourself quite the expert when it comes to what I want, to the point where you feel entitled to tell me, with almost comical certainty, that you know it better than I do. Unwarranted self-importance notwithstanding, I'm not sure how you came by that idea. I know what I want, thanks all the same, and what you're claiming I want isn't it. Misunderstanding my position is one thing, but trying to turn that back on me by accusing me of not knowing it myself is quite another.

The fundamental error in your reading of my posts, I think, is not really knowing what I mean by a "proper entrance", or perhaps, not understanding how they work. Here are some examples:









Now, I have said repeatedly that I'd like such entrances to operate more frequently, not less, if players are near them. You seem to be wondering how that works with the line-of-sight restriction (which, I hasten to add, is not "my rule", but the way the game is currently programmed). That leads me to ask: Have you ever flown over the boundaries of these spawn areas as a spectator to see what's on the other side? If you had, you would have soon noticed a recurring theme:






(Admittedly, that one isn't very clear, but you should get the idea.)



Now, where do you suppose the actual spawn points are in these screenshots? That's right - around the corners, where players cannot possibly position themselves within line of sight. Thus, they never fail the line-of-sight test, even if the players are standing right in front of them. I didn't collect any screenshots of vents, but they're built according to the same principle: generally, the visible opening is one endpoint of a short tunnel, the other endpoint being a small, square room where the spawn point is.

(Continued in the next post, due to the per-post image limit.)

 

[Entangler]

The larger entrances around map boundaries and so on are done the same way, too:








(Nice skybox texture there, by the way, JustFilth... )

They don't always have to be built that way to be protected against the line-of-sight test, though. Here's a creative example:





That wall, barely visible from inside, is actually non-solid; specimens spawn behind it, thusly shielded from the players' lines of sight, but then walk straight through it like it isn't there (which, to them, it really isn't). Walking through a wall might seem inconsistent with what I've been saying about visual cues and making sense, and normally it would be, but because the specimens must visibly walk over the grass outside and climb through the obviously vulnerable windows, it's actually perfectly fine.

There we go; hopefully that has clarified the line-of-sight issue once and for all. Apply that to everything I said earlier - and don't forget the part about nearby spawn points being favoured over distant ones - and my stance should start to make a lot more sense.

The other relevant detail to bear in mind is what I mentioned, albeit only in passing, about the spawn rate and whatnot. The actual suggestion is in this thread:

...the introduction of a second variable for controlling the max specimen count: one that is multiplied by the number of active players present at the start of the wave (much like the specimen total for the wave). The defaults I had in mind were 24 for the fixed base and 8 for the multiplier, which would yield the same 32 as now for solo, but 72 for 6-man, and well over 100 for the larger servers.

With the context now established, let me tell you how I really want the game to work - and don't try to tell me I'm wrong this time.

Currently, the specimens come at a trickle, seemingly at their own leisure. The way I see it, they should pour in, mostly from the nearest entrances, like a flood hell-bent on drowning you. Holding a position would become nearly impossible, because they would simply overwhelm you by sheer strength of numbers if you tried - on Suicidal difficulty, only the quickest, sharpest, and best co-ordinated teams should be able to stem the tide. Everyone else would be left with only one option: To run. Situational awareness, time management, delegation of responsibility and, of course, ammo conservation would all increase in importance dramatically. Add to that the fact that I'd like to see significant balance changes across the board so that Scrakes and Flesh Pounds became serious distractions - ones that you'd barely have time to handle, with everything else swarming you at the same time - and any notions of "complete safety" or "mindlessly shooting in one direction for an hour" would evaporate.

I hope you understand now.

 

[nutterbutter]

Seriously? How in any worlds does the flamer encourage sloppy play?

Because 95% of the flamers out there do not fire short bursts at long range targets. 95% of flamers simply hose down mobs 5 feet in front of the team. Which burns through ammo at a furious pace and blocks everyone else's view except the commando.

Rather than tap the fire button to set the farthest mob on fire, move to the next one, tap the button to set him on fire, rinse, and repeat, 95% of the flamers hold down the fire button til the clot dies, the gorefast dies, the bloat pops, and so on.

Lazy play.

And that Berzerks wants cover and heal is 100% natural, he takes ~90% of the teams combined damage, he works great as a meatshield (hehe^^). But now the game is so horribly imbalanced so you only need a team of sharpshooter to finish any map on any difficulty. I hope you understand what I mean. If they nerf the sharpy, everyone will be more than happy to have a zerk to take their damage instead of having their kevlar slit off by two scrakes. /Anemia <3

Well, yes and no. The zerker has to be out there, but again, 95% of them just don't give a damn about good play. They don't care about defense or proper positioning. They want to run out in the middle of 3 spawn points and they demand that everyone cover them while they do the killing. They burn through their armor in 30 seconds because they want to attack everything while ignoring everything else that is wailing on them.

So the rest of the rest is basically covering this one guy who complains "Hey, I'm out here killing everything and you guys can't keep me healed!"

Your second point is bit trickier. I hate the m14 and think it is way too powerful as well. Most of the tertiary weapons are too powerful as well. However, I was playing when suicidal play was two zerkers in a doorway with medics behind them healing, and the rest of the team killing what they could. So I'm happy that other classes can kill FPs and scrakes semi-easily and not completely rely on the zerker, but the added big weapons really threw the balance off.

 

[nutterbutter]

You seem to think yourself quite the expert when it comes to what I want, to the point where you feel entitled to tell me, with almost comical certainty, that you know it better than I do. Unwarranted self-importance notwithstanding, I'm not sure how you came by that idea.

Reading what you typed.

The fundamental error in your reading of my posts, I think, is not really knowing what I mean by a "proper entrance", or perhaps, not understanding how they work. Here are some examples:

Now, I have said repeatedly that I'd like such entrances to operate more frequently, not less, if players are near them. You seem to be wondering how that works with the line-of-sight restriction (which, I hasten to add, is not "my rule", but the way the game is currently programmed).

Now, where do you suppose the actual spawn points are in these screenshots? That's right - around the corners, where players cannot possibly position themselves within line of sight. Thus, they never fail the line-of-sight test, even if the players are standing right in front of them.

You're right. I didn't understand what you meant nor did I understand how the vents work with "line of sight." I didn't understand where the actual spawn points were.

Oh wait...

You aren't thinking past stage one. You want vents in rooms? Well, according to your "rules" nothing would spawn in them as long as people could see the spawn point. Same thing down a long hallway. Want to bury the spawn point deep in the vent? Then the mobs would regularly spawn through the vents and no one would use that room or that hallway.

You want the perfect example of your suggestion? The room above the double stairs in bioticslab. That has the "ambushing" vent at the top. How many teams use that room when a dozen crawlers and stalkers drop out every 30 seconds? And you want to make it so FPs and scrakes drop out of there as well? Yeah, sure. That's good gameplay.

Currently, the specimens come at a trickle, seemingly at their own leisure. The way I see it, they should pour in, mostly from the nearest entrances, like a flood hell-bent on drowning you. Holding a position would become nearly impossible, because they would simply overwhelm you by sheer strength of numbers if you tried - on Suicidal difficulty, only the quickest, sharpest, and best co-ordinated teams should be able to stem the tide. Everyone else would be left with only one option: To run. Situational awareness, time management, delegation of responsibility and, of course, ammo conservation would all increase in importance dramatically. Add to that the fact that I'd like to see significant balance changes across the board so that Scrakes and Flesh Pounds became serious distractions - ones that you'd barely have time to handle, with everything else swarming you at the same time - and any notions of "complete safety" or "mindlessly shooting in one direction for an hour" would evaporate.

Was that so difficult? If you want a specific type of play, then just type it out.

 

[Anemia]

Because 95% of the flamers out there do not fire short bursts at long range targets. 95% of flamers simply hose down mobs 5 feet in front of the team. Which burns through ammo at a furious pace and blocks everyone else's view except the commando.

Rather than tap the fire button to set the farthest mob on fire, move to the next one, tap the button to set him on fire, rinse, and repeat, 95% of the flamers hold down the fire button til the clot dies, the gorefast dies, the bloat pops, and so on.

Lazy play.

Well, yes and no. The zerker has to be out there, but again, 95% of them just don't give a damn about good play. They don't care about defense or proper positioning. They want to run out in the middle of 3 spawn points and they demand that everyone cover them while they do the killing. They burn through their armor in 30 seconds because they want to attack everything while ignoring everything else that is wailing on them.

So the rest of the rest is basically covering this one guy who complains "Hey, I'm out here killing everything and you guys can't keep me healed!"

Your second point is bit trickier. I hate the m14 and think it is way too powerful as well. Most of the tertiary weapons are too powerful as well. However, I was playing when suicidal play was two zerkers in a doorway with medics behind them healing, and the rest of the team killing what they could. So I'm happy that other classes can kill FPs and scrakes semi-easily and not completely rely on the zerker, but the added big weapons really threw the balance off.

But if most of the flamers flame their kills close then doesn't that mean it's the most effective way? But by doing that they do cover some of the zeds for their teammates. But I think the reason you have thought about this is that it's mostly a problem for the SS who actually have to score ~all headshots. The other perks doesn't have this "penalty" (the commando might wish to, but he can more or less see through smoke and fire). The fire isn't nearly as hard to see through as the smoke and does only cover the zeds' bodies.
And the possibility to do the long ranged flaming is very limited. It's really hard to do this in maps like office, biotics and so on.

And for the zerks: the "i-dont-give-a-damn-about-gameplay zerk" is alot less common than the "look-at-my-kills-you-noob sharpy". I'm not saying they should boost the zerk (not even a bit, well maybe the chainsaw but not the zerk), but the sharpy needs one big nerf (including the xbow). About that zerk-medicthing, why didnt you shoot over them. And if they stood up why didnt you ask them to sit, and if that didnt work it's just people being asshats.

I dont think the bigweapons was the big problem i think the "problem was the fixed hitboxes. It made the whole game into a playfest. The sharpy was turned from med-highrange to low-highrange and from mediumzeds to small-bigzeds. which threw off the balance 100%. I cant see any balanceproblem in the AA12/Scar/Medgun/Lightnadelauncher, I must say though that I belive that the ammo for the nadelaunchers is way to high. It's so stupid when demos shoot singel crawler and clots with nades >_>.
But have you tried any game without any sharpy, they are much harder and interesting.

/Anemia <3

 

[Jmb301530]

That was the situation I fell prey to, on suicidal. For simplification I omitted bloat and fleshies now, because they didn't have any chance to do me harm, as I was already dead from two siren's screams (and any player class besides berserker would be also, taking 110 armor ignoring damage).

Not true, I can survive 2 sirens on suicidal with being a medic, pop a heal, and get point blank and hope they bite. the heal will save you...barely, and then when they bite, it hurts your armor, so you have time to heal. But if you're at like mid/short range, you're screwed.

 

[Entangler]

Reading what you typed.

You did a poor job of it.

You're right. I didn't understand what you meant nor did I understand how the vents work with "line of sight." I didn't understand where the actual spawn points were.

Oh wait...

Sigh...

You want vents in rooms? Well, according to your "rules" nothing would spawn in them as long as people could see the spawn point.

As long as they could see the spawn point, indeed - but when that spawn point is in the vent, they never could, so actually, "my rules" don't prevent it at all, thus rendering that statement irrelevant. If you knew that before you wrote it, then why did you write it at all? I certainly never said anything to that effect; in fact I made my preference to the contrary quite clear.

Same thing down a long hallway.

And for that matter, I never said anything about long hallways at all. Did you misunderstand what I said about the MinDistToPlayer property or something?

Want to bury the spawn point deep in the vent? Then the mobs would regularly spawn through the vents and no one would use that room or that hallway.

You made that sound like a change that I want to make. It isn't, not because I don't want it, but because it isn't a change.

You want the perfect example of your suggestion? The room above the double stairs in bioticslab. That has the "ambushing" vent at the top. How many teams use that room when a dozen crawlers and stalkers drop out every 30 seconds?

I'm well aware of that. Incidentally, those particular vents perfectly illustrate what I mean about near spawn points being favoured over distant ones. Apparently I have to keep repeating that point, because it seems to mysteriously disappear from my posts whenever you quote them.

And you want to make it so FPs and scrakes drop out of there as well?

No.

Was that so difficult? If you want a specific type of play, then just type it out.

Given that up until that point, whenever I had typed out what I wanted, you had responded by accusing me of wanting something entirely different, I'm surprised that it actually worked.

 

[nutterbutter]

But if most of the flamers flame their kills close then doesn't that mean it's the most effective way?

Not even close. If a commando kills a clot with 2 shots does he keep shooting the mob? If an SS headshots a gorefast does he continue to empty the clip into the mob? If a support dude kills a stalker, does he pump another 5 shells into the lifeless body?

Of course not.

But what do you think a flamer does when he hoses down a mob? The flamer does 2 types of damage, direct and DoT. Direct is shooting a mob with the flamer. DoT is the mob burning. Say the flamer pops a clot with a 1 second burst. The clot will continue to burn for a few more seconds and then die. So any more direct flame to that clot by the flamer is simply p*ssing away fuel. That is how poor flamers run out of fuel.

Now, you may state that the mob is really close and the flamer can't wait that additional time for the mob to burn to death. Fine. If a group of crawlers are RIGHT THERE then there's not a damn thing wrong in hosing down an area if it it needed.

But hosing down right in front of the group does three things. Blocks EVERYONE'S view, except commandos for close mobs). The flamer can't properly aim and distribute damage. If a scrake or FP happens to wander in then you have an aggroed mob damn close to the team.

It is poor and lazy play.

Now if the flamer does what he is supposed to do and fire short bursts at far away targets then everyone benefits. The flamer gets plenty of kills. The DoT damage actually works and there is really no penalty for using the flamer.

But I think the reason you have thought about this is that it's mostly a problem for the SS who actually have to score ~all headshots.

Everyone should be aiming for headshots; for speed, damage, and ammo conservation. And the flames don't simply hide mobs above their shoulders.

And the possibility to do the long ranged flaming is very limited. It's really hard to do this in maps like office, biotics and so on.

Bull. First of all the flamers need to be behind others. A flamer simply doesn't do enough damage fast enough to be in front of others. Flamers should be firing over others and the nice arc of the flame encourages that.

A flamer properly aiming his shots can put out more damage than every other player. An experienced flamer can have dozens of mobs burning and taking damage simultaneously.

The flamethrower, just like every other weapon, needs to be aimed. Thinking that it is used to hose down close mobs is lazy play.

And for the zerks: the "i-dont-give-a-damn-about-gameplay zerk" is alot less common than the "look-at-my-kills-you-noob sharpy".

And? Excusing poor play by pointing at other poor play isn't a valid argument.

About that zerk-medicthing, why didnt you shoot over them. And if they stood up why didnt you ask them to sit, and if that didnt work it's just people being asshats.

Because the zerkers don't sit. I don't care if they are asshats or not. They keep playing like that, I'll let them die. Just like demos or flamers who shoot 3 feet in front of me. I'll politely ask them to stop and if they don't, I'll let them die and I'll keep playing. Honestly, people who do that are poor players anyways, and it doesn't take much, usually not killing one or two gorefasts and that problem is gone.

I dont think the bigweapons was the big problem i think the "problem was the fixed hitboxes. It made the whole game into a playfest. The sharpy was turned from med-highrange to low-highrange and from mediumzeds to small-bigzeds. which threw off the balance 100%. I cant see any balanceproblem in the AA12/Scar/Medgun/Lightnadelauncher,

Maybe. I like the fact that now, zerkers aren't a requirement, but I don't like the balance.

I can't tell you one big thing I don't like is the ability to buy partial armor. I liked when someone had to decide to spend 300 or go with 40% armor. Add in the fact that filling up armor helps people generate tons of cash they couldn't do before.

I must say though that I belive that the ammo for the nadelaunchers is way to high. It's so stupid when demos shoot singel crawler and clots with nades >_>.

Yup. That is why people run out of ammo. Stupid play.

But have you tried any game without any sharpy, they are much harder and interesting.

6 commando/Support/sharpie/flamer/demo
5 Medic
4 Zerker (and I hate zerker)

 

[Undedd Jester]

Sheesh this is getting heated, if I might interject as a medic/firebug myself...


Now I've re-read stuff a number of times,a nd their seems to be 2 arugements going on so how I see it is....

The M14 sparked an arugement about players playing poorly. I think its necessary to point out that the weapon itself isn't a poor weapon, its the player wielding it that plats poorly. The firebugs get picked on here because a firebug that continually sprays down specimens until they die is playing poorly.
A Sharpshooter using the M14 and taking 3 shots or more to behead a clot (which I see a heck of a lot more than constant spraying firebugs) is just as bad play. The difference is that the Sharpshooter has a huge stockpile of ammuntion, whereas the firebug doesn't. Therefore this method of bad play is barely noticed on the Sharpie but felt hard on the Firebug.
That is the complaint I think was being driven at.

The arguement over spawns seems largely a misunderstanding, and is hopefully resolved. My stance on the whole thing is mappers should be trying to make it so that specimens can push into a camping location with the right spawn to keep things interesting and challenging. On biotics lab for example I think there should be an alternative way for specimens to get into the U room. Even if it is jsut some crawlers and stalkers. That being said Biotics is a small map, and forcing players to move around in it doesn't make sense, since there are only so many ways they can go.

I personally like to see maps with a large number of reasonable camping spots, rather than a map with 1 great camping spot.

 

[HaTeMe]

Whats with this multi-quote fest

 

[Undedd Jester]

Whats with this multi-quote fest

I dunno, I had to use Ctrl+F to find the original context of about 90% of the arguement

 

[Anemia]

Text

First of all, Could you please stop treating me like a moron since I'm not one. I have no intention of being in a flame war so I'll answer your post and then leave this thread, and if you want something, then please use the PM function =)

No the flamer isn't a spray n pray weapon. But you can see that you won't be able to kill one gorefast with one burst (if you let the fire disappear). You have to "double"-burst it anyway, But if you "triple"-burst it you will almost kill it instantly. What I'm trying to say is that the DoT is rather small and not divine in any way. But shooting "three" burst instead of 2 is not in any way like shooting headless things or corpses.

For example Bioticslabs (that regular deadboring campplace). Then the alternative for a FB would be to flame over the specimens. And that doesn't work. The firebug does in most cases stand to the right/left and primary takes the zeds that comes from their direction. It causes minimum problems for the other players. This though causes the FB to barely use it's DoT at all since it's killing from low range. But it works perfectly fine as it is.

Regarding the headshots then: Yes I agree that med/sharp/commando/support/zerk should aim for the head since it does most damage. But to support and zerk it's not very vital, it's like a bonus. The zerk may not plow through the zeds at the same rate but since it stunnes the zed non-head shots works good, and support have very high spread unless you stand very close, so headshot at med range is about as effective as bellyshots (as I use to call them^^) since due to the spread more sharpnels misses the target then aimed to the head. Aim to the head is a very good idea at close range though. Commando and sharpy is the ones that really relies on the headshotdamage. But as said earlier, it's most important for the sharpy due to the insane extra dmg. The flamer doesn't cover so much that you can't see the zeds or what kind of zed they are. (Unless the FB is doing his best to create a small inferno ). But you get what I mean. It's mostly the sharpy that suffers from lowered vision (well that's an obvious fact).

I don't know where I said that the flamer should be used to hose down enemies. I do use to flame down things at medium range by using 2-3 short burst. And of course you need to aim with the flamer. That doesn't mean it's always that easy. If anything is easy, it's to aim for the sharpy/commando. In most cases the flamer needs to use gravity to throw the flames over the specimens (unless you play on big open (in my meaning boring) maps).

"And? Excusing poor play by pointing at other poor play isn't a valid argument." / This is true, But pointing at another poor play is still relevant. This was that I'm not defending "poor play", But I do think there's "worse play" that makes that first poor play look like excellent play. But the question is: what is your definition of "poor play"?

Last (I think) No there shouldn't be any need for a zerk. But neither for the sharpshooter. As you might have noticed, the thing that bothers me most after a sharpy with ebr is a sharpy with xbow. If you ask me I'd say that's really lazy playing due to the fact that they can bring down anything, anywhere at any time. For a sharpy, bringing down an FP is a small thing, while bringing down an FP for any other perk is a pretty big thing, and often a team-achievement.

Okay, this is last: Yes the new buy system for kevlar makes it a lot easier to make money. I pretty much miss the old fall-damage-on-vest thingy =D

I don't hate you, we just disagree on some parts =) Edit: Sorry for the wall of text

/Anemia <3

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

Whats with this multi-quote fest

yeah, this thing's getting a bit derailed.......would everyone like to go back and take a look at the OP and the two simple issues the OP addressed?

• Disapprearing Ammo/Weapon pickups
• Random or "magic" zed spawns that kill immersion

 

[nutterbutter]

First of all, Could you please stop treating me like a moron since I'm not one.

I never said you were a moron nor did I treat you like one. You asked for explanations so I did. Or I could have just said "Because I said so."

No the flamer isn't a spray n pray weapon.

No it isn't. But you asked me why I thought the flamer encouraged poor play and why isn't hosing down mobs 5 feet in front of the team wasn't the best way.

But you can see that you won't be able to kill one gorefast with one burst (if you let the fire disappear). You have to "double"-burst it anyway, But if you "triple"-burst it you will almost kill it instantly. What I'm trying to say is that the DoT is rather small and not divine in any way. But shooting "three" burst instead of 2 is not in any way like shooting headless things or corpses.

That is why the flamer should be firing those bursts a long way away. The flamer should be bouncing back and forth between as many mobs as he can and keeping them on fire. If the first burst is done when the mob is 5 feet away then the DoT is useless. But, if the DoT is started from a long ways away then the flamer can pop him several times and the DoT works the magic. Not only does the DoT work, but any damage done by DoT benefits the entire team because the flamer can weaken mobs and the others can kill the mobs with a single shot rather than multiple shots.

For example Bioticslabs (that regular deadboring campplace). Then the alternative for a FB would be to flame over the specimens. And that doesn't work.

It works perfectly well and damn good. The point, just like every other class except for zerker, is to shoot the mobs as far away as possible. Once a mob gets to close the flamer moves to others. Never shooting the closest ones.

The firebug does in most cases stand to the right/left and primary takes the zeds that comes from their direction.

The flamer shoots in all directions and shoots the farthest mobs.

The flamer doesn't cover so much that you can't see the zeds or what kind of zed they are. (Unless the FB is doing his best to create a small inferno ). But you get what I mean. It's mostly the sharpy that suffers from lowered vision (well that's an obvious fact).

Right. Dude, I'm not calling you a bad player. You seem to take this personally for some reason. You asked me why I thought why the flamer created sloppy play and laziness. I'm telling you what poor players do with the flamer. You don't? Then great.

I don't know where I said that the flamer should be used to hose down enemies.

I didn't. Again, YOU ASKED ME why I thought the flamer created sloppy play and laziness. I am answering you.

If anything is easy, it's to aim for the sharpy/commando.

Everyone has different opinions.

"And? Excusing poor play by pointing at other poor play isn't a valid argument." / This is true, But pointing at another poor play is still relevant.

No it isn't. You asked my opinion on the flamers. Saying "Well, these other guys over here are worse" is irrelevant.

I don't hate you

Why in the world would I think that you hate me?