Soviet Union ally with Germany ww2?

[Perun58]

I see that defending ethnic cleansing is still a thing in rural areas of the Czech Republic.

There was NO ethnic cleansing!
From all Germans who died in Czechoslovakia max 2000 of them died because of this transport. Total number of transported Germans was 3 million (1/3 of our total population)! If this was enthic cleansing to you we did terribly bad job. And unlike what nazis did to us these weren't in most cases direct murders.
From total population of 3 149 820 we killed 2000 by this "ethnic cleansing" - that's 0,06% of their population! There NEVER was any goal to "kill all Germans on Czech territory", not from common people, not from politicians.
If this was "ethnic cleansing" then I suppose that communist regime in Czechoslovakia did "enthic cleansing" too because it has similar number of casualties.

On the other hand nazis killed 300 000 people because of these poor sudeten Germans who were mostly totally ok with it... that's by the way around 3% of our population if I am counting Germans too... if not it was around 4.5%.

And Poles are before us?

We forgiven them, but it doesn't mean I will be silent when someone will start compaining how we were evil with our "enthic cleansing" after they killed 300 000 our people.

I don't think Polish people would be happy if you were insulting them for beeing bad on Germans after what they did there.

People here still remember what Germans did to us and yes I am talking mainly about these Sudeten ones. As I said 95% of them were nazi supporters which would be punished by death. There are many people who have their own experience with these Sudeten bastards and many people still can't understand how it's possible to brainwash so many people to become terrorists, murderers and nazis.

Sudeten Germans that were totally opressed by our evil goverment had 10 political parties (tell me one minority now that has it) and of course by far most favourite among Germans was nazi one.

Since you obviously know crap about history of my coutry, about situation here during WW2 and before that, about Sudeten German's requirments you should better be quiet.

And saying Prague unlike rest of the republic is in 21th century proves you have never been here exept that capital city hole. In my opinion these is no "advance" difference between Brno and Prague exept the fact that Brno is much more advanced in technologies (IT, electronics and so on).

Tell me more about history of my country - as person who was in Prague (wow!) you surely know a lot about our history... definitely more then our grandfathers who lived that time and remeber what ****ers these poor Germans were.
If you were at least in area were Sudeten Germans lived and was talking with people about their memories I would maybe took you seriously.

And as I said they are complaining that we killed 2000 of their people, yet they don't mind 200 000 of them died fighting in Wehrmacht.

Sudeten Germans welcoming their heroes.

https://translate.google.cz/transla...aus-die-bohmische-sau.html&edit-text=&act=url

Here you can read memories of common people.

Imagine your country is invaded and 95% of minority is helping invaders, welcoming them, killing your people. This percentage is not my opinion it's not guess - we know numbers of supporters of different political parties... to this small percentage of Germans we said sorry 100 times... but I will ever apologize this STRONG majority of Germans who were not only supporting Hitler and Protektorat B

 

[Siegertyp]

There was NO ethnic cleansing!
[...]
I apologize for beeing rude but saying what we did was enthic cleansing especially if I consider what Germans did here is very insulting to me.

Ethnic cleansing [definition] is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of creating a territory inhabited by people of a homogeneous or pure ethnicity, religion, culture, and history. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

Face the facts. It exactly fits the definition. Look up what the UN charta of human rights says, look up how the International Court of Justice defines it.
Don't mix things up, I did not say it was genocide. But by all standards of definition it WAS an act of ethnic cleansing. And ethnic cleansing is, no matter how you try to justify it, a war crime.

From total population of 3 149 820 we killed 2000 by this "ethnic cleansing"...

Right, a lot of the victims were not classified as murder victims. Several thousands of dead Germans were officially registered as "suicide incidents". How convenient.
And after 1918 it was not as pleasant for the Sudetendeutschen as you suggest. Several rights were only existantant on paper, repression by the Czech government was common. But that would open another can of worms and would completely derail the topic of this thread.

About telling me to shut up because you think I know nothing about the history of your country: I did not only spend holidays in Prague several times, I visited Lidice and Theresienstadt. I know how the Sudetendeutschen treated the Czechs, and I know how the Czechs treated the Sudetendeutschen. You seem to prefer to remember the former and forget/downplay the latter.

My visits in Poland and the Czech Republic confirmed my conviction that denying or justifying any crimes is the worst way of coming to terms with the past and building a foundation for the future.

 

[Siegertyp]

Katyn btw, is the biggest gift and propagandist weapon Poland gave to Hitler, they couldn't wait with it a bit, could they? They accepted proposal
Words do not matter, doings are.

Oh, that horrible, horrible deporting! Of enemies. There were uprisings, baltics were openly supporting Hitler. If it wasn't for deportation these people would start to shoot in the back first...

Strange views on history and human rights by a Stalinist.

Nothing to counter that Hitler and Stalin were not de-jure, but de-facto allies in 1939/1940. Nothing to counter that Stalin wanted to join the Axis in 1940.

 

[Perun58]

You seem to prefer to remember the former and forget/downplay the latter.

Number of suicides was research did by both Czechs and Germans. Besides by far not all Germans were moved.

And repression of Czech goverment was common?!
Are you kidding me? Those Germans wanted our territory to be connected to Germany. Before that they wanted federalisation! It was Sudeten Germans repression of OUR goverment with tons of impossible requirments created together with their friends in Nazi Germany! Read about strategies of Hitler and Heinlein.

"Look up what the UN charta of human rights"

Oh god there was no UN back then -.-. (It's funny that someone who is defending nazis uses UN like an agurment by the way) But if you like it this way look at laws of our country - supporting nazism is crime no matter what you say about it. And it that time it was also treason - for treason there is death penalty that NEVER happened for majority of these Germans who were supporting nazis.

I ask you once again - how do you suggest to judge 90%+ of population that betrayed their country? Just forgive them? Nothing happened? Czechs who betrayed their coutry were executed and those 2 700 000 Germans were not.
We treat them better then traitors from our own nation!
As I said if we used proper sudgement we would execute millions of people for treason and it would be legal. Yet we moved them to Germany so it can be considered terrible war crime today and people like you could ***** around that we moved traitors out of our country.
You're right, maybe we should found real supporters of nazi party and execute them. Many Germans who joined terrorist groups and were fighting for Hitler were unpunished this way. Yeah we would execute millions of people but who cares.. still better then move them to Germany because that's a war crime right?

Do you realize that strong majority of people you're defending were traitors and nazis that weren't properly judged and executed like other traitors? Yeah what we did was ilegall I am sorry about that. We should kill 90% of their population that woudl be fair and legal to our laws back then.
I feel sorry for those 10%- Germans who weren't traitors and they still were moved if this is what you want to hear... but I consider absolutely OK moving the rest that betrayed their country.

And just because you were here for a few times doesn't mean you know more about it then Czechs or our historians.

I don't know why I am even loosing time with you. Nazi apologists like you are not worthy of my time.

By the way this deportation was also descision of ally superpowers.
http://www.svedomi.cz/dokdoby/bendekr_benes1947.htm
http://www.svedomi.cz/dokdoby/bendekr_malyretribucni.htm

 

[Siegertyp]

And repression of Czech goverment was common?!
Are you kidding me?

Now you are showing that you are lacking knowledge of history. It started in 1918, when Czechoslovakia was created, US-President Wilson postulated the right of nations to self-determination, which was granted to every nation but Germans and Hungarians.

The Germans, who settled in the Sudeten region for centuries and founded many cities did not want to be part of the newly founded Czechoslovakian state. It was forced upon them against their will.

When they demonstrated peacefully for their right to vote for independence, the Czech army fired on civilians [4 March 1919]. Many, if not most German schools were closed, German mayors and officials removed from their offices. German workers were easily fired, and as a result that the unemployment quote in Czechoslovakia was highest among the Sudetendeutschen.

The US envoy Archibald Coolidge suggested to cede the Sudeten region to Germany and Austria. As it was denied, he remarked: "To grant to the Czechoslovaks all the territory they demand would not only be an injustice to millions of people unwilling to come under Czech rule, but would also be dangerous and perhaps fatal to the future of the new state. The blood shed on March 3rd* when Czech Soldiers in several towns fired on German crowds [...] was shed in a manner that is not easily forgiven."
* (the events were on March 4th, not on 3rd as Coolidge said)

So to say that someone is a traitor who is forced into a state that he did not agree to in the first place is bollocks.

Oh god there was no UN back then -.-. (It's funny that someone who is defending nazis uses UN like an agurment by the way)

A crime stays a crime even if a definition of it is provided later. Before the Nazi genocide on the Jews there was no definition of genocide.
Do you want to tell me that the Holocaust was no genocide because at the time it was committed there was no UN and no International Court of Justice to define that term? Same as the ethnic cleansing on the Sudetendeutschen was no ethnic cleansing because at the time this term was not defined?

I ask you once again - how do you suggest to judge 90%+ of population that betrayed their country? Just forgive them? Nothing happened?

As I said before - a "betrayal" by people who are denied their right to self-determination is not really a betrayal to me. It never was "their" country. And to claim that 90%+ were Nazis just because they did not want to live under a Czech state is ridiculous. Of all the Sudetendeutschen even Benes considered only 300.000-500.000 as Nazis (to be exact, he referred to them as "Hitler's fifth column").

To clear one thing up, though - the repression of the Sudetendeutschen in the early 20s makes it understandable to me that they welcomed the Nazis, but in my opinion it does not justify a bit the crimes the Nazis committed in the late 30s and in the early 40s. As well as those crimes do not justify the crimes the Czech committed after the war.

For those who are interested, here is a documentation by David Vondraček - 'Killing, the Czech Way' (T

 

[Perun58]

I know very well when this started. Germans were against us since our country was created.
I never claimed they are nazis because they did not want to live in our state. They were nazis because they simply were. They were supporting nazis and cooperating with them.. so as I presumed your solution would be doing nothing and ignoring what they did... Czechoslovakia was their country. They were citizens of Czechoslovakia. They were living here which means it was their country. We have documentation of political parties votes and their support we know that 90% of them WERE supporting nazis. Of course I could send you another tons of articles where Sudeten Germans were before war killing Czech civilians but I don't think it will do anything (Freikorps and so on). If what they did you don't consider as betrayl I think I don't know what to say.

Sudeten Germans were in 90% cases nazis and your attepts to justify it or deny it won't change that.

And yes Czech state was forced them against their will... just like Austria-Hungary to us.. and majority wanted own state so after Austria-Hungary collaped Germans should either accept will of majority or leave.
It nearly sounds like you would like to judge us for being independent country like we were before.

About repression in the begining of 20th century - it really sounds in your version like Germans were completely opressed by everyone. This was totally mutual - they were opressing our people too from whole beginning!

http://klempera.tripod.com/odsun.htm
http://natura.baf.cz/natura/1994/7/9407-3.html
Maybe if you will use google translator and you will have taste for that, this may open your eyes. Sending me videos and opinions of individual people won't change my mind because I can do completely the same thing. I also have films showing murdering of Czech civilians by Sudeten Germans. Or I have tons of citation of other people then Vondr

 

[Perun58]

So 90% of them (87% to be more accurate) wanted to destroy Czechoslovakia and connect it to the third Reich and were in the same time supporting nazi ideology and we should not consider it treason because you say Czechoslovakia was not their country?

I don't know what you consider "beeing your country" but I consider it to be it's citizen and that is what they were. If they did not like it they could move... I was "forced" to live in Czech Republic after Czechoslovakia collapsed and I don't exactly love Czech Republic... you say that if I was supporting invading enemy right now I would not be a traitor?

Or we should't create Czechoslovakia because there were Germans living here?

They were supporting nazis long time after Czechoslovakia was created.

If they were living in so terrible conditions why they did not migrate (before end of war - I know that around 600 000 Germans moved then).

Creation of Czechoslovakia was completely official and if they did not like it's their problem, they could either move or deal with it. Just like people do with results of elections.

 

[Siegertyp]

http://klempera.tripod.com/odsun.htm

Maybe if you will use google translator and you will have taste for that (I doubt it) this may open your eyes.

I browsed through some chapters, but google translate is bad enough with standard texts, here it is nearly useless - sorry.

But I saw that Chapter IV is suspiciously short, while the other ones are quite detailed. That chapter is about the foundation of the Czechoslovak state and the events that follow. The shootings from 4 March 1919 are not mentioned, and stragely there is no word of the closing of German schools and other repressions by the new founded state. I can only wonder why.

So my verdict on this site from a short glance is that it seems to be quite one-sided.

Sending me videos and opinions of individual people won't change my mind because I can do completely the same thing. I also have films showing murdering of Czech civilians by Sudeten Germans.

No, that is not only "opinions of individual people", that is a part of history. History that is agreed to by modern historians, not the historians of the socialist time. And history ist the story of BOTH sides, there is not only one side of the coin. Sending me videos of Czechs killed by Germans would be like to preaching to the choir. I have seen lots of documentations about it, I won't deny any of those crimes, and I won't justify any of them by repressions or killings before that, or before that, or before that.

I regard every killing of humans as a crime, no matter by which side it was committed, no matter what excuses - even today - are given. My opinion is that human rights apply to everyone, everytime.

And to the ethnic cleansing - it was an ethnic cleansing by all standards of definition.

There is still a lot of denial, as David Vondraček said. You are a perfect example.

I mentioned earlier that instead of the hate that shines through your lines I prefer the view expressed the bishops of Poland about a similar subject: "We forgive and ask for forgiveness".

-----

Whoa, you edited and added a lot. My short reaction to that substantial addition:

Also your friend "bier" you are defending and who caused this argument is claiming it was genocide.

He is not my "friend", I do not defend him, and I clearly said that I (correctly) regard it as ethnic cleansing, not as genocide.

...and majority wanted own state so after Austria-Hungary collaped Germans should either accept will of majority or leave.

Leave? Leave the region where they lived for centuries? No. The borders of Czechoslovakia should have been different from the start. Woodrow Wilson's "right of nations to self-determination" should have been applied for every nation.

In parts of the Imperial German Reich there were plebiscites about the ethnicities. In several parts (e.G. Oberschlesien) the majority of the population voted in favor of being part of other countries - Danish and Polish for example. So these parts of the German Reich were ceded to other nations. I am completely fine with that.

The only problem is that this "right of nations to self-determination" only applied to everyone except Germans and Hungarians. They should have had the opportunity to vote, too. Then, as Archibald Coolidge rightly saw, many problems would not have arisen. They should have had the right to vote after WW1, and they should have had the right to vote after WW2.

 

[Perun58]

I browsed through some chapters, but google translate is bad enough with standard texts, here it is nearly useless - sorry.
.
.
.

I already said I would easily apologize to those to were moved even though they were on our side. I also don't deny that there were many murders. But I won't apologize to 90% of their population who wanted to connect our land to the third reich. And the fact they were traitors and enemies of our country is something that you deny. And historians in modern times have similar view to what happened.. I have tons of articles like that but since they're all in Czech they're useless now. We have tons of other historians then Vondr

 

[Siegertyp]

And the fact they were traitors and enemies of our country is something that you deny. [...]

There was no way to just ignore that 90% of our German population wanted our country destroyed.. it was dangerous to keep them here.

I certainly accept the fact that they did not wish to be citizens of Czechoslovakia, but preferred to be German citizens, living where they lived for centuries: in a German state (Austria considered themselves to be a German state at that time, the Austro-Prussian war is still called brother's war today).

Why are you opposed to the right of nations to self-determination? Those 90% that you consider to be traitors were not really Nazis, they wanted the right to live in their country. They did not want to live under a government that shot at them when they peacefully demonstrated for their right to vote. They did not want to live under a government that closed down their schools and removed their mayors.
The Polish had a right to vote, and in those parts where they were the majority that region became Polish, it was similar with Nordschleswig that became Danish.

Do you find that so hard to understand?

The solution would have been to cede the land to the people who live there, not to rob them of their country and expel them from their homes.

 

[Perun58]

I certainly accept the fact that they did not wish to be citizens of Czechoslovakia, but preferred to be German citizens, living where they lived for centuries: in a German state (Austria considered themselves to be a German state at that time, the Austro-Prussian war is still called brother's war today).

Why are you opposed to the right of nations to self-determination? Those 90% that you consider to be traitors were not really Nazis, they wanted the right to live in their country. They did not want to live under a government that shot at them when they peacefully demonstrated for their right to vote. They did not want to live under a government that closed down their schools and removed their mayors.
The Polish had a right to vote, and in those parts where they were the majority that region became Polish, it was similar with Nordschleswig that became Danish.

Do you find that so hard to understand?

The solution would have been to cede the land to the people who live there, not to rob them of their country and expel them from their homes.

And we wanted to finally have own country.

Those 90% I consider nazis were supporters of Heinlein .. now tell me he was not a nazi. That's like saying that if 80% of people vote for communists they are not in fact communists. About closing schools... why the hell there should be German school in non-German country? I mean we don't even have Slovakian schools here as far as I know... why would any country have school of different nation?

Fact they had own schools proves they had bigger rights then other minorities.

And just because in Sudetenland majority of people were Germans doesn't mean it's German. Majority of people living in Karlovy Vary are Russians.. now imagine they would like to separate , connect to Russia because they don't find Czech Republic to be Russian enough. I also don't consider how Poles took our territory using votes of majority in OUR terrority.

I cannot stop consider people who wanted destruction of our country, connection to the third reich and germansation of our nation again as traitors.. no matter how hard you will try to justify their connection to nazism they were still supporting nazis (no matter if they really were or weren't) and nothing you posted and nothing you will ever post will change that.

Since they were minority they should act like minority. I mean I would never dare to complain if I were living in different country that there is no Czech school.. and after that I would never support destruction of this country and connection to Czech Republic.

Before creation of Czechoslovakia everything on our territory was German... official language was German, everything was German. And Sudeten Germans missed these times and could not accept the fact that we want our own country without their German language and culture! Can you understand that we wanted to be free Czechoslovakian nation after hundreds of years of Germanisation?!

And show me country that will give it's territory to Germany because there are many angry Germans living there.
You are suggesting leaving our terrotory to Germans because they were majority there that's ridiculous.

Did you ever hear Czechs complaining we have no schools in other countries?

That's all I will say and since I am tired of this disscussion that wasn't even topic anyway don't expect me to answer anymore. You don't even need to bother yourself answering unless you have really strong desire to do so.

 

[Siegertyp]

And we wanted to finally have own country.

Yes, at the expense of of a large part of the population who lived there, too, who never wanted to be part of an artificially created state and whom you robbed of their country.

Those 90% I consider nazis were supporters of Heinlein .. now tell me he was not a nazi.

Of course he was a Nazi. And a despicable person, in my mind, too.
But the majority of those who supported him did not do that primarily because they were also Nazis, tbut because they saw it as the best chance to get rid of the state they never wanted in the first place and the one that repressed them.

I cannot stop consider people who wanted destruction of our country, connection to the third reich and germansation of our nation again as traitors.

You did not answer why you are opposed to the right of self-determination. Your Karlovy Vary (Karlsbad) remark can not be taken seriously, the Russians did not settle there for centuries like the Sudetendeutschen.

I can understand the desire for the cessation of the Sudetenland to Germany. Other borders should have been drawn in the first place, that is what Archibald Coolidge meant: "To grant to the Czechoslovaks all the territory they demand would not only be an injustice to millions of people...".

It was an injustice to millions of people, and it can't be held against them that they wanted to see this injustice to be corrected.

The Germanisation and the crimes connected with that however are not justifyable.

You don't even need to bother yourself answering unless you have really strong desire to do so.

I certainly will not stop because you are telling me to do so.

We have different opinions. That's fine. We discuss, we don't harm ourselves, so that's fine, too. Let's rest it with that. It is the task of historians to assess the past. I think it is important that all sides are listened to, and that it is possible to voice an opinion without easily being insulted as a "Nazi apologist", like you did.

 

[Siegertyp]

Damn, you have a nasty habit of considerably adding to your posts!

Can you understand that we wanted to be free Czechoslovakian nation after hundreds of years of Germanisation?!

Wait a tic. The Sudetenland was inhabited by Germans for a very, very long time, many cities even were founded by them. That was long before the concept of "nations" or "nation states" existed. You could have easily had your state without the Sudetenland.

And show me country that will give it's territory to Germany because there are many angry Germans living there.
You are suggesting leaving our terrotory to Germans because they were majority there that's ridiculous.

No, that is exactly what the "right of self-determination" means. I gave you other examples of cessations. Why would you rob the land of Germans and Hungarians that was not yours in the first place when Czechoslovakia was founded?

Did you ever hear Czechs complaining we have no schools in other countries?

Why should you? Are Czech people anywhere in any country the majority in another country's region? Not to my knowledge. Otherwise they had every right to complain. In today's Germany there are Danish schools in S

 

[Perun58]

Yes, at the expense of of a large part of the population who lived there, too, who never wanted to be part of an artificially created state and whom you robbed of their country.

Of course he was a Nazi. And a despicable person, in my mind, too.
But the majority of those who supported him did not do that primarily because they were also Nazis, tbut because they saw it as the best chance to get rid of the state they never wanted in the first place and the one that repressed them.



You did not answer why you are opposed to the right of self-determination. Your Karlovy Vary (Karlsbad) remark can not be taken seriously, the Russians did not settle there for centuries like the Sudetendeutschen.

I can understand the desire for the cessation of the Sudetenland to Germany. Other borders should have been drawn in the first place, that is what Archibald Coolidge meant: "To grant to the Czechoslovaks all the territory they demand would not only be an injustice to millions of people...".

It was an injustice to millions of people, and it can't be held against them that they wanted to see this injustice to be corrected.

The Germanisation and the crimes connected with that however are not justifyable.


I certainly will not stop because you are telling me to do so.

We have different opinions. That's fine. We discuss, we don't harm ourselves, so that's fine, too. Let's rest it with that. It is the task of historians to assess the past. I think it is important that all sides are listened to, and that it is possible to voice an opinion without easily being insulted as a "Nazi apologist", like you did.

Perhaps it was not clear from my last post:
I meant no kind of disrespect.
But I don't want to continue for following reasons:
1) I don't have to for this (I am really busy with studying)
2) We won't convince each other anyway (if two persons know same amount of info it doesn't mean they have same opinion)
3) We already took two pages on threat that has nothing to do with our discussion

For any former insult I apologize - I lost my nerves.
Good bye.

 

[Siegertyp]

Right, see you in the game!

 

[Nestor Makhno]

I think we have all learnt something from this thread...

Namely, don't start political threads.

 

[aaz777]

I think we have all learnt something from this thread...

Namely, don't start political threads.

Actually, history IS politic. We just cant discuss history, especially ww2 with such different history books in different countries, without touching politics. If you want remove politics, you should remove the whole history sub forum

 

[Perun58]

Right, see you in the game!

We can continue later once my exams are over; I have huge number of long articles here - once of them is about demonstration 1919. I can translate them but as I said - later.

 

[Siegertyp]

We can continue later once my exams are over; I have huge number of long articles here - once of them is about demonstration 1919. I can translate them but as I said - later.

Sure, looking forward to it, am qite buisy myself right now, so take your time. Good luck with the exams!

 

[Adenru]

I think we have all learnt something from this thread...

Namely, don't start political threads.

The problem with this thread started with statement from Polish propaganda which wants to push wild version of Poland being innocent victim of WW2 and accusing others while claiming to have had large strong army. Victim, eh? Innocent? I find such position ignominious for Poles themselves, Poland back then could not be on par with major powers as they found out but they weren't a pawn either. Maybe if they had a saner government back then Poland could become more than than it is now. Won't go into that, was has happened has happenned.
This thread is not about history, its about accusation, a false accusation, threads like this should not be allowed at all, I'm not talking about lokcing it, the best solution is to delete it and give author worning.

Actually, history IS politic. We just cant discuss history, especially ww2 with such different history books in different countries, without touching politics. If you want remove politics, you should remove the whole history sub forum

No, history is way more than just politics. There are threads about weapons, machinery, battles, REAL historical facts unlike this one which was pulled out right out from excuses and self-pityness.

I request this thread to be deleted and such threads to be forbidden.