"Sore Shoulder" for Semi-autos

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Unorthadox

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 1, 2011
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I'll keep this nice and short.

I find that the speed our "personas" can accurately fire (By the shoulder) the SVT and G41 is unrealistic, and probably is the true source of general dislike for them. Right now, I could jump in game, find a server that is running Barracks, get either of the semis, and be at the top of the boards in terms of both teamwork and kills, simply because of the lack of recoil plus the speed I can make it go.

I'm proposing that a little invisible timer starts up whenever you first fire a semi by the shoulder, and whenever you fire within that timer, the recoil after that shot is worse than your first shot. If you keep firing within the timer, the timer gets longer and longer until you rest or reload.

Example time! (Just a example) -

Lets say the timer on the SVT is two seconds. You fire once, your recoil is the normal recoil, but then you fire before two seconds passed, so your recoil was a bit worse and one second was added to the timer, and yet again, you fire before the timer was up, so your recoil is worsened and another second is added. Now, you wait the four seconds before you shoot again, and your recoil went down to normal.


Now, I'm not asking to punish semi-autos for being semi-auto, but with the lack of jamming, there needs to be something to make bolt actions more appealing to players. Most of you are probably going to say "Larger maps will make bolts better!" and "These are trained soldiers, they can handle the recoil!", and I disagree with both.

For one, all larger maps will do is affect accuracy, and they'll have to be massive to really tell the difference between bolts and semis, if there is a difference in the first place. In which the bolt will still have a big disadvantage.

When it comes to trained soldiers, I don't care how will you're trained, or how well you understand the rifle, the 7.62x54 has a ton of kick (Can't speak for the 7.92). Plus if you have ever fired a rifle that has a steel plate on the back of the stock, you'll know that you just won't want to fire it rapidly unless you're a glutton for punishment.
 

greenlemonade

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 20, 2010
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I find when shooting it takes a bit for the bruising to kick in. Several minutes even.

I get what you're saying though. More recoil on semi's.
Thing is, they ARE a great weapon. They SHOULD dominate.

They were so game changing that General Patton called the M1:
[SIZE=+2]"The greatest battle implement ever devised."
[/SIZE]
So those that are bolt action riflemen are lucky they are in such short number.

I would get behind adding a very slight chance of weapon malfunction to SMGs and Semis. Hiting R would clear the jam. Worked GREAT in Americas Army games.

I also still think they should scale class selection to players logged on the server.
[SIZE=+2]
[/SIZE]
 
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MagicSnake

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 28, 2011
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I like the general idea. I perfectly agree semis should be superior to bolts in 98% of situations, but slighty more "kick" from the semis relative to how fast it's being fired is an appealing concept.
 

Reise

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 1, 2006
2,687
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Maine, US
Guys. The regular Rifleman's appeal is that it's always available. That's it. If you do well or poorly with a bolt rifle that's your business. Semi-autos should always trump them.

They should be as accurate and more deadly than bolt rifles because they are in real life. It's also not that difficult to fire accurately and rapidly either. Both 7.62x54r and 7mm Mauser rifles have respectable kick, but they aren't at all uncontrolable in semi-auto rifles. That is by their design. That's the whole point.

In reality they are usually always more preferable unless you're pulling incredibly long-distance shots and even then it boils down to the weapon's design being the biggest factor in accuracy.

If you are getting killed by somebody who happens to have a semi-auto rifle you can't do anything but sigh and accept it as the way of things. Just like you would if you were shot by somebody with an SMG up close, or an MG from far away.
 
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NoxNoctum

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 15, 2007
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I havent fired an SVT, G41 or Garand but from videos I've seen it's more or less spot on.

It went off target too much in RO.

Really though the only way to know is to actually fire one of these guns which I'm led to believe TWI did for at least most of the RO2 weapons.
 

Unorthadox

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 1, 2011
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Thats actually BS, I know from my own experience that you can dump ww2 semi autos pretty quick. There are also many videos that prove that fact. M1 Garand Fast Fire - YouTube[/URL]

Note the fact that he didn't bring it completely up to his shoulder and take aimed shots. If he did it that way, his shots would be all over the place.

@Green
I'd be for adding random jamming, but I remember some one posting against it and he reasons were legitimate. His reasons were that a random chance that the player has no effect over doesn't make good game play. I love AA too, but my gun would jam extremely rarely that I would sometimes forget to press reload to clear it.

@Reise
Availability isn't much of an appeal when everything else is already taken. The SVT-40 didn't have the accuracy the 89k and MN did. The SVT had a dispersion issue, and I can't speak for the G41. Back in the day, the only way to reduce recoil was to use a muzzle break, there was almost nothing else that could be done other then to reduce the grain in each cartridge. If you know something about the design of the SVT and G41 when it comes to recoil reduction that I don't, tell me.

@NoxNoctum
I don't doubt that TWI went out and fired all the weapons in the game, but I'm sure they were lenient in consideration to the game.


I'm not trying to say that semi-autos shouldn't be better overall, because they were the next generation of rifles, so they should be better. However, these were the first generation of semi-auto rifles to be mass produced, and they had problems that were not modeled into the game. I'm just asking for a little something to give a bit more reason for people to use bolt actions.
 

Reise

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 1, 2006
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@Reise
Availability isn't much of an appeal when everything else is already taken. The SVT-40 didn't have the accuracy the 89k and MN did. The SVT had a dispersion issue, and I can't speak for the G41. Back in the day, the only way to reduce recoil was to use a muzzle break, there was almost nothing else that could be done other then to reduce the grain in each cartridge. If you know something about the design of the SVT and G41 when it comes to recoil reduction that I don't, tell me.

At the ranges in RO2 the differences in accuracy would be minimal. As far as muzzle brakes, the SVT does indeed have one (and a different one for later models) and it helps a ton. I'm not quite sure what the fixture is at the end of the G41's barrel but it doesn't seem to be for compensation so you've got me there.

SVT-40s also have a manual gas adjustment nut that you could change depending on weather conditions or the type of ammunition so that cycles would be more or less powerful to make up for poor performance. That'd have an impact on recoil for sure, but you would think the various recoil and gas piston springs already present would take much more of that down a notch compared to a regular M91/30.

TBH I'm not as knowledgable on G41s or their gas operations so I can't really comment on how their mechanical details could lend to a softer kick.
 

Volucris

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 6, 2011
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Ok...I actually agree about Semis just being better weapons than bolts and that you can unload them quickly, but this seems a bit ridiculous. Has it been modified?

Also, where's the PING?

Buahhaha....



You can fire a semi-auto as fast as you can pull the trigger.
M1 Garand Bump Fire - YouTube

Granted when shouldered:
2010 BARC M1 Garand - YouTube
That's the speed of a rather amateur shooter in 3-gun competition here in the states.

You can't hear the ping when shooting and you sure as **** can't hear it down range of the gun. The ping sound is just hollywood bull **** and video game lies at its best.


Notice how soldiers of the day did not wear hearing protection of any kind. .30" projectiles at several times the speed of sound result in hearing loss and almost permanent ringing of your ears. You can't hear anything when the shooting starts.
 

SurgeonPredator

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 9, 2011
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Northern Teutonia
Is this discussion still about accuracy or just firing speed? Because the "rate of fire" is irrelevant (well, it goes down to the cycle operation being the ultimate rate of fire)

Shooting accurate over extended range is the key to success. The 7,92x57 (or 8x57 mm nowadays) kicks more than a .308 Win, shooting this rifle standing or kneeling unsupported will ruin your sight picture.

I am a competitive shooter with a precision .308 Win, I can not fire a follow-up without loading the bipod, not to speak of shooting standing/kneeling.

However, there are sulotions to get rid of accurate bump fire (which is the most ridiculous way to fire a gun if not in self defense):

1) make the rifle kick up and back without support

2) reduce stamina to hold a rifle over extended periods of time in the ready (increase sway over time due to muscle strain)

3) add a rifle sling to stabilize the shot without support, this would reduce the maneuverability and takes several seconds to get into a fast sling but reduces sway and felt kick

4) add barrel mirage, distorting the sight picture after prolonged firing

As in my other post, I did not play the beta, if any of those features are implemented I did not see/read, disregard what I said.
 

Jorg Biermann1

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 8, 2011
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Why the **** is everyone posting videos of the M1 Garand?!?!

Wouldn't it make more ****ing sense to post something about the G41 or SVT?

Now Ladies look the M1 Garand is a late war weapon and was a great design. The G41 and SVT were not. Look at these Videos, both are clearly rested and look at that recoil.....

German Gew.41 Rifle - YouTube

Tokarev SVT-40 Rifle - YouTube

Now look at this guy try to bump fire the SVT. Yeh. It sucks...

Bumpfire SVT-40 - YouTube
 
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LemoN

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 26, 2006
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The recoil in HoS is somewhat low, but acceptable.

The thing that really makes the semi-auto rifles unrealistic (at range) is that IRL your ironsights will get slightly misaligned after each shot, and so should the game represent the rifles too. It makes shooting targets that are 25-50m away easy, but quite rapidly decreases your maximum accurate ROF to nearly that of a bolt action rifle at 100-200m.

And before anyone asks, yes I've fired the Garand quite extensively, and also had my hands on a K-43 and SVT-40.
 
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Jorg Biermann1

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 8, 2011
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Buckinghamshire, UK
And before anyone asks, yes I've fired the Garand quite extensively, and also had my hands on a K-43 and SVT-40.

Yeh but you've never sh....

Oh.

t202709_1262642-trollface_tiny.jpg
 
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Koopa Troopa

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 8, 2011
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To be honest, you fire automatic on the shoulder etc, and you dont get bruised, same with semi-autos...

You think when 5 people are rushing at you, you will have time to hurt? The human body has the capability to block pain using adrenaline and its own produced morphine. You wouldnt feel it till afterwards. Hence the capability of some people to walk a couple of miles with a broken leg - its about circumstance, will and fear....

I will leave you to research it...

Leave it out the game is good enough