Some thoughts ...

[The_Emperor]

(For all those who do not yet know) I have been with Red Orchestra and Tripwire since RO Beta 3.0 and it felt like a marriage. Some times you dislike what your partner is doing but on the long run you love them and you are faithful.
What made me stay with RO Beta even though the competition (Call of Duty and Medal of Honor) had better graphics and higher detail models? If anyone remembers the edgy MP40 we used to look at for so many hours, they would know what I'm talking about. So what made me stay and not go for the "big boobs"? This one here, RO she had brain and she had soul.

RO was always special for me. No game could closely catch the atmosphere when you were standing in there in the destroyed warhouse on StalingradKessel with nothing but your Karabiner 98k and two Stielgranate. And you knew the Russians are coming for you. You could feel it. You were in the war! In grandfather's jackboots.

Now with RO2 and the winsome proposal of bringing the most realistic FPS experience ever (Means RO3 will be less realistic) I thought paradise is coming to my computer. Well, when something is so perfect, so awesome, so ... you know ... something is wrong. I was proven that there was something wrong, actually a lot of stuff was wrong. But like I said, in marriage you won't quit because of difficulties coming at you (of course when you are a dickless loser who is always running away rather than facing difficulties you will quit at once).

I believed in Tripwire to bring what they promised. But I was proven wrong again. I had to wait for about 6-7 months to have the game in the status it should at least have when it was released back in September 2011.

Now we are about one month before 1st Anniversary and the game is still not what I expected when I heard John Gibson say "The Most Realistic FPS Experience EVER!!!"

When looking at what the mainstream produces it's not really too different from what RO2 is now. The action mode was THE failure of the century for me. Free Weekend for the whiny boys from CoD and MoH.

"We noticed that RO was too hard for standard gamers ..."

HELLLLLLOOOOOO??????

Do you actually know what mainly differs a woman from a man? Could you please stay reasonable for once? RO2 and a crosshair? Totally out of range.

Before downloading the so called GOTY Edition I really had high hopes but as I saw it's: a new map, lots of bug fixing and an asshole game mode. I was ... let's say depressed.

I know, several here already hate me for this but I still want my fking great coat for the Germans. I do not understand why actually every WW2 shooter that features Germans in winter warfare offers great coats for them. I thought after 6-7 months it might finally be possible to wear them. RO Beta had them, Ostfront had them but RO2 does not.

You already have a great coat model for the Red Army so basically you have the model and you have the animations. What is the big difficulty to set up a great coat model for the Wehrmacht?


And the second thing is ATMOSPHERE. Like I said RO always made me feel like I was in grandfather's jackboots and not like playing a war movie. Combined with "Most Realistic FPS Experience EVER" I thought that this time it would be for REAL.

I know that there is always this vile discussion on performance and I'm aware of that not everyone playing RO2 is featuring a hell machine to play on.
Yet, I'm confused why I'm able to see my body when I'm dead and the camera stays inside "my head". I can see my lower body, my legs and my feet. This is the "low detail" world model, right?

I know, now all those guys will come and yell at me "what you need to see your body for?" Atmosphere and Immersion.

When playing Killzone 3 and looking down I see my body and I can say I'm a full human/ full Helghast. It gives me the feeling to be more than just "gun and hands"
I thought we are playing a realism shooter here and it's about feeling the war and not playing the war. I thought that RO2 is THE shooter simulation and not a holiday to Stalingrad like CoD: WaW.

Honestly ask yourself what makes the difference between RO today and the mainstream shooters? Missing war crimes? Is this really THE reason to grab RO or rather play CoD?


And about the latest patch, what was going on in your minds?
Commissars House, was a nice map directly on release. But it was patched and patched and patched .... why? Because some whiners kept on complaining that the map was SOOOOO

 

[keasy]

Guess you don't like it much then.



I think TW were caught between a rock and a hard place.
I played RO and it was bloody hard so I can see why they tried to get a more widespread audience.
Everything is dominated by the big players these days and to try and entice a new fanbase that was desensitised to true core PC grit through a diet of consolised flim flam is a hard juggling act, I can see what hey were trying to do with RO2.
Personally I love it. apart from the SMG's, too powered and too accurate.

 

[Six_Ten]

...
Some of you might remember maps such as Kaukasus from RO Beta and RO Ostfront. This map was a real hammer for Axis at times IF the Allies were a good team. Now, why patch a map more and more to one factions favor when the other team is simply to bad and it's not the map's fault?
...
I don't expect it as pitch black as "East Prussia Night" was (maybe some veterans remember this)
...
Someone interested in stopping this CoD style mapping? What about a more real life approach and allowing to have more access? Would be great to shoot at the enemy or being shot at from more different locations rather than just knowing "Ah yes, I come under fire. That prick is in that window of there, it's the only accessible window." That is boring and feels like CoD. Change that.
...

Go here: [url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/forumdisplay.php?f=135[/URL]

Download the custom maps. They're easy to install and they have what you're after. Even if you aren't able to create the kinds of maps you want to play, you can get them by testing and giving feedback to those who are.

 

[Korn-Y]

I think the major part of the people who were waiting for RO2 as a good RO serie sequel are still a bit disappointed. RO2 symbolises more the entry of the RO serie into the "CoD FPS" garden, the normal FPS style nowadays. (Why? Maps/Menus/Gameplay...)

I don't want to start a debate about that, but imho you're wrong about Commissar's House. It was hard to win when playing Allies on Commissar's House (Classic) Moreover if you don't like seeing Allies being helped through this update, Axis was helped on Grain Elevator too.

We have 3 night maps, and this is 3 full moon night map, yes, it's going a bit boring right here too...

 

[Poerisija]

And about the latest patch, what was going on in your minds?
Commissars House, was a nice map directly on release. But it was patched and patched and patched .... why? Because some whiners kept on complaining that the map was SOOOOO

 

[Rak]

I agree with you except the Commisar's House changes, the first Allied spawn was horrible. Axis could literally park a tank at the exit and kill everything exiting the spawns, it was a design disaster. That map was everything broken about RO2 in a nutshell. Now, I haven't played the latest patch version as I don't have RO2 installed anymore, but I'm sure whatever they did, it must be playing better.

Now, Kaukasus comparison is not fair. That map was brutal for Axis in the beginning, but it was impossible to lock down the Axis in spawn like in Commisar's. Why? Because Axis always had a choice, unlike the linear boring maps of RO2. Axis caps the Back Route and they are locked down? They capped the Ruins and flanked Allies from behind. Both routes locked down? Push from Shepard's into Ruins. With 32 players, Allies had to shift from cap to cap and they ****ed up one front eventually and Axis broke out and reached the courtyard. Introduction of 50 player servers threw the balance away though, like every other stock maps . . .

Adapting the same scenario for Commisar's. Locked in first spawn? Well, bad luck buddy because you'll respawn, respawn, respawn and die because you have no choice other than get out of this spawn and die to spawn raping tanks/MG's/Axis in lots of cover.

"We noticed that RO was too hard for standard gamers ..."

HELLLLLLOOOOOO??????

It all went downhill since that comment.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Nice read.... I've played RO since the "Mod" Days as well (it wasn't a Beta, it was a mod for UT2k4) and I too liked the immersion and level of detail brought into the game.... but that's where the similarities between you and I end.

You complain about how horrible RO2 was at launch and how you were promised this and believed this claim or that and now you're getting all tiffy over how you were lied to and your wife cheated on you with the sailors who just came into town from shore leave..... and how the game should have been flawless right at the start when it was released in September.

If you truly did play RO back when it was Combined Arms and played it from the beginning where the vehicles were just being tested on and half the game didn't work properly, you'd know RO never came out on launch perfectly..... and while Combined Arms was a Mod and they have a bit of slack cut for them since it was a free mod.... Ostfront wasn't all that perfect either and only got most of its content and stability that it started off with, from being ported from the Mod.

I'm not a huge fan of Action Mode.... But if no Realism Servers are available, I'll choose an Action Server over a Classic Server any day of the week.

RO2 certainly didn't launch perfectly and had a number of issues.... probably about as many issues Combined Arms had when it started off.... these problems come from unfamiliarity with the game engine you're working on.

Back before they were even called Tripwire and they were working on the Mod, they had to screw around with a lot of things in the Unreal Engine 2.0..... now they're working on the Unreal Engine 3 (3.5 by TW's words on how much they modified the engine)..... so the learning curve basically resets almost to the start, as both engines are very different from one another in many ways.

So to say the least... sh*t happens.

I actually like RO2..... I currently like it more than Combined Arms.... and I like Combined Arms more than I liked Ostfront. RO2 went back to many of the things I liked in the Mod that got screwed over in Ostfront. I like the new features like the cover system, adjustable sights, better tank models and physics.... Panzer IV's that don't blow up from one hit from anything at any angle, aiming the turrets with the mouse instead of that clunky keyboard aiming crap.... and so on.

I never agreed that TW should have pandered to the group who wanted this "Classic" mode and I sure as hell didn't like the thought of this "Action" mode either... it should have remained Relaxed Realism and Realism.... that's it.... and then work on everything else for the game like the Campaigns and more Content.

But as I said, sh*t happens.... they're not going anywhere, so time to move on.

As it stands for me right now, I believe TW delivered on their claims of RO2... there is no other FPS out there today that sparks my interest like RO2 does. It brings back the faster pace gameplay of the Mod, the weapon handling that was in the Mod, etc.

This is merely my opinion.... and like your above post, that's your opinion as well.

And anybody coming in here puffing up their chest and making claims like "I'm an RO1 Vest" or "I'm an ROCA Vet" doesn't make their opinions anymore right than the next persons.

Don't like the game and absolutely hate it?

Maybe it's time to get a divorce.

 

[defektive]

I think the major part of the people who were waiting for RO2 as a good RO serie sequel are still a bit disappointed. RO2 symbolises more the entry of the RO serie into the "CoD FPS" garden, the normal FPS style nowadays.

Yup, and more than just

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Kaukasus was a terrible map whose designer had no idea what makes a map "good", "fun" and "balanced". All of which are needed if we're to have FUN while playing a GAME in our FREE TIME.

I liked that map actually and found it easy to win on either side of the battle, but chose the Germans more often (Here's the hint: head for the back route first)

Your professor/exam analogy is totally non-related to the discussion. You have a change to pass the test if you study. In Kaukasus, if the allied team is even nearly as good as the axis, they'll lose. End of story, they will not win if the teams are near even in skill. While "real war" isn't balanced or fun, game can't be unbalanced and unfun. If it is, no-one plays it. I think you're confusing unbalanced with asymmetrical.

Again.... the map was mostly decided based on which team used the better tactics and communication. If the Germans didn't work together, they'd get one cap and the rest would just go back and forth until the end of the round.... if the Russians weren't working together, then the Germans could take everything in a few minutes and surround them at the final cap where they just chewed them up.

Karlovka was another map I saw a lot of people avoid because they felt it was unfair for the Germans and they couldn't win due to the short round timer..... yet I and many others loved that map and voted it over and over again to play back to back.... and I was mostly German because I liked the challenge.

There's a difference between a map being very challenging and needing good team work (Karlovka/Kaukasus, etc) but it's a different thing when you have a map like Comm's House or Station where you can have the enemy right at your spawn doorstep, killing you the moment you spawn (or have a clear view of you spawning into thin air and shoot at you from afar)

Dark nights in computer games are good in theory, bad in practice. All dark nights does is lead to upping gamma/brightness to max and then you'll have ugly grey world. Not everyone does this, but the ones who do get a massive advantage you can't call cheating. It doesn't work in ARMA II's Dayz where most people who don't have NVG's just quit from servers that are on night time. Or up their brightness. Same will happen in RO2. Dark night map comes, everyone either quits or goes to options to tinker with gamma.

And if they want to do that, they can be my guest.... they'll just have to keep switching it back and forth each time maps loaded or end up with overly bright day maps.

I personally don't care what others do with their video settings.

I'm not saying map design isn't stupid (it is), but they're not "CoD-like". They're just badly designed, not using the space on the map properly and having spawns way too much forward often.

To a degree, I agree with you more than I do with the OP.

Besides, COD:UO had good maps and bad maps. RO:OST had good maps and bad maps. Urban warfare tends to be meat grinder, even in games. This is true for RO2 and RO1 too. It has nothing to do with CoD-like maps.

Agreed.... people have to drop this CoD / BF crap.... I've played both CoD and BF (various versions of each) and if RO2 was anything like those games, I wouldn't be playing RO2 right now.... just as I don't play anymore CoD/BF games.

People like what they like & people will hate what they hate.... for those who like the game, enjoy and keep on shoot'n.... for those who hate the game and puke a little bit in their mouths every time they look at it.... time for you to move on.

 

[The_Emperor]

Thanks guys for sharing your opinion with me. Quality discussion has always been my favorite.


I played RO Combined Arms a lot, actually like every night for several hours. It was demanding and it had me hungry. I know that vehicles were actually field tested and there is a lot of things I remember in the mod that were not perfect. I also remember some folks telling me that this game must be crap. Why? Because the graphics were no longer up-to-date. If anyone remembers the classic strategy game Red Alert, he might just know that graphics is not everything to a game.

Where CoD had big boobs, RO had heart and soul.

Ostfront was based off the mod experience by Tripwire. Of course things weren't perfect at the very beginning but I do not remember them being that harsh like they were with RO2. At least when I shot someone he couldn't just run on. No one survived an entire MP40 mag and kept running on.

Sure Ostfront became better and a lot due to the modders that boosted it so much.

But as I said, sh*t happens.... they're not going anywhere, so time to move on.

Yes, that's true. Nobody is perfect. But like you said it's time to move on.

RO2 is still my favorite shooter. But I think it's okay that you tell "your wife" that something is annoying you. I think it's much better to be honest rather than just swallowing everything and then having the big bang. Well, in case of RO2, it would just be me stop playing.

Yet, I think as Tripwire seem to be a bit lost in ideas it wouldn't be too bad to tell them that they should stop fixing things that are fine.

Yes, Rak is right, the first load out of Commissars House was bad but I believe that the second we had was already quite fair.

About the night maps, yes there is those poor dickless guys that need to increase the potentiality by adjusting their gamma to see just like in bright day.
But still for those who love the realism, why was there any need to change Red October? It was fine the way it was. It was challenging for both sides. Germans could lockdown the Russians on the first objective if they worked hard and the Allies still could make it to the last objective and smash through the German lines.


I never meant to say I hate RO2, I just simply dislike several things with it but I wouldn't say I need a divorce as I wouldn't describe myself as a dickless coward running away.

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

Oh boy another thread espousing the much vaunted "feel" of the original RO. And why exactly should TWI make major game-play according to vague feelings (more likely than not with a heavy dose of nostalgia) of a a select few players? More to the point how would TWI even recreate this "feel" without changing RO2 more or less back into RO1, as specific suggestions from said players are few; beyond saying over and over how RO1 had that magical "feel."

Tl;dr

if you can't even figure what exactly it is you want changed, don't ask.

 

[Lethall]

I never agreed that TW should have pandered to the group who wanted this "Classic" mode and I sure as hell didn't like the thought of this "Action" mode either... it should have remained Relaxed Realism and Realism.... that's it.... and then work on everything else for the game like the Campaigns and more Content.

The majority of gamers in these forums are the RO fanboys of old, and the average gamer has no idea these forums exist, and only a few with serious game issues end up here looking for a solution to a problem that is seldom resolved and then disappear to go play something else that will run for them.

Tripwire conducted a survey, which of course is going to be favorable to the RO vets in this forum, and spent months trying to satisfy the the old RO fan base, totally ignoring the 1000's of average gamers that would have added to sales and number of players in this game.
If Tripwire had added the missing content that many wanted (as promised) and is still not available nearly a year later, there would be a huge difference in total sales and number of players.

Out of curiousity and for quick reference, I checked present players online for top 100 in Steam Stats.

RO2 was #72 with 1231 players.
Counterstrike and CS:Source combined had 91,201 players online at present.
Arma2:OA had 5641 players
Even L4D2 was #9 with 13,951
KF was at 3191

Most of the COD games were in the top 20 or so.

It is really sad when Tripwire puts so much time and effort into trying to satisfy a niche of gamers that it ends up so far down the list of games being played today. (even with free weekends, guest passes, and steep discounts) (I couldn't give my passes away .. no one wanted them)

I still have some small hope for the missing content to be added, but that hope is fading fast!

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

You can't assume that everyone at TWI just dropped what they were doing to work on Classic. I'm sure it did take up some of their time, but I'm guessing work continued on content updates. I mean everyone at TWI has their specialties and it seems most of the Classic (and Action) work involved coding. Other things that coincided with the Classic and Action mode releases were bug fixing, and other optimizations that needed to be done regardless of those two modes.

So blaming no content updates on Classic mode only goes so far if you think about it.

 

[Nezzer]

Yeah Emperor, I understand you completely and I agree with you about a lot of things, especially about the friggin' greatcoats that I've been suggesting since the DDE beta (though there are still some geniuses that keep saying the Germans had absolutely no winter equipment on Stalingrad and fought in their summer uniforms at temperatures below -30

 

[Cyper]

I mostly agree with the OP...

However, It's important to point out that Tripwire never aimed to deliver the most realistic FPS game ever. Personally I would not like that either; I already have ArmA 2 and that's a awesome game/simulator. RO is awesome aswell (or at least was) but not in the same way. I've always found Ostfront to be the game to play when I didn't want to play Arma or any generic shooters. Because RO was in the middle of that.

Also, Classic delayed things? No. Classic Mode is just a rushed mode as action mode. It didn't take six months to develop Classic Mode nor Action Mode. It took six months to realize that it had to be done. Mostly because of the huge player drop. Very unlikely Classic and Action mode would be released if it wasn't for the fact that a lot of people were leaving. Despite this none of these modes have managed to bring back even a bit of the lost players. RO2 failed from the start.. the accessibility project failed. A LOT of things had to be re-worked and even removedin terms of features. Optimization, bugs, glitches..new content is priority two. It can't be blamed on classic mode, action mode, realism mode, this or that... it was just something that went terribly wrong. Some sort of identity crisis for the game. Developing a game for a niche audience and at the same time trying to make it streamlined and accessible is rarely a good idea. It just makes it offputting for both parts and create an even smaller niche audience as it is now. I have never ever seen a gamedeveloper successfully doing this. No need to repeat it anymore; Tripwire will certainly think ahead in the future. Mistakes happens even though its very unfortunate.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

..... Also, Classic delayed things? No. Classic Mode is just a rushed mode as action mode.

The span between when TW announced they were going to work on Classic Mode and when it was released to the actual game after beta testing was between Feb when they announced RO Classic would be beta tested, right up until the GOTY update.... May.... that doesn't seem rushed to me.

It didn't take six months to develop Classic Mode nor Action Mode. It took six months to realize that it had to be done. Mostly because of the huge player drop. Very unlikely Classic and Action mode would be released if it wasn't for the fact that a lot of people were leaving.

Which had more to due with glitches, performance bugs and some content not currently in the game, than the select few people angry that it wasn't like Ostfront.

Despite this none of these modes have managed to bring back even a bit of the lost players.

Funny, the player base seems better than it was shortly after the GOTY release.

 

[Cyper]

The span between when TW announced they were going to work on Classic Mode and when it was released to the actual game after beta testing was between Feb when they announced RO Classic would be beta tested, right up until the GOTY update.... May.... that doesn't seem rushed to me.

It's very unlikely that all effort was put into Classic and/or Realism mode since

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Funny, the player base seems better than it was shortly after the GOTY release.

I can only suspect the Steam summer sale?

 

[Six_Ten]

... why exactly should TWI make major game-play according to vague feelings (more likely than not with a heavy dose of nostalgia) of a a select few players? More to the point how would TWI even recreate this "feel" without changing RO2 more or less back into RO1, as specific suggestions from said players are few; beyond saying over and over how RO1 had that magical "feel."

Many of the long time RO players have written volumes of specific, detailed, and practical answers to these questions. There's nothing vague about it.

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

Many of the long time RO players have written volumes of specific, detailed, and practical answers to these questions. There's nothing vague about it.

and how many of those suggestions included the phrase "x needs to be more like how it was in RO:OSTFront" "this new system/game mechanic/ \ is stupid, look how well RO1 worked without it" or the invariable cry of "causal killing the game." ?I'll admit most of the vets are at least generally logically and sensible when stating their opinions and suggestions, but then you have people (not going name specific names here, as that seems to add fuel to the fire) who openly suggest forcing changes upon people simply because said changes are what they deem best, without any consideration for the many others who enjoy different things. Honestly in general the more senior players here treat newer players with a disdain thats awkward and painful to see, not necessarily because they're new and can't play that well but because they pose a threat to what they believe RO2 should be. In game these prejudices become even more obvious (especially on the few Classic servers that were around immediately after the patch that introduced it). Several self proclaimed vets (one of whom used to frequent these forums) just went around teamkilling/wounding players below a certain honour level, the reasons? Not being in the cap exactly when they were (despite many newer players not knowing where they were, and noone bothering to help them along), not immediately killing every MG/marksmen that killed them more than once, and get this - using the scoped semi-auto as the marksmen class, apparently if you don't use a bolt-action you don't deserve to play this game. Its things like this that made the "vets" lose all respectability in my eyes, yet everyday they come on here to dictate how the game should be played for everyone else. Eventually it gets a bit frustrating