Slow down reloading for shotguns

[Amber Glass]

lol whos heated? i'm just saying, the speed buff is negligible at best, and definitely not one of the reasons for support being OP. and the risk of blowing yourself up is part of the fun haha, though it is possible to get away without taking damage

 

[Althamus]

scenario 1: Your team just semi-wiped on the roof on hospital horrors. Various classes respawn, namely: 1 support, 1 sharpshooter, 1 medic, 1 commando. Fortunately, the trader happens to be located at that one hallway that's on the way to the roof (that hallway that's immediately outside of the 'green room' with the weldable door), so the medic can buy 1 weapon for 1 of the other classes to be transferred on the roof. The support's now very minor speed bonus will be the sole reason he is able to make it to the roof easily with the medic, whereas the other classes will have a harder time. Not very fair.

The support spawns with a 11/24 (45% encumberance) HSG, and as Amber said, he's unlikely to drop it.
The sharp spawns with a 9/15 crossbow (60% encumberance).
The commando spawns with a 7/15 A47 (46% encumberance).

The commando would make it to the rooftop at practically the same time as the support, and the sharp wouldn't be far behind.

The difference only comes when a support carrying, say, a katana vs a sharpshooter carrying a katana. 4/24 vs 4/15 is a bigger difference.

Also, a support at 1/24 is 4% encumbered. A sharp carrying 1/15 is 6% encumbered. Arguments for a support dropping his weapon and running faster than a sharp are pretty weak.

And once more, a support carrying a standard loadout (8lb shotgun and 10lb shotgun - 19/24 = 79% encumbered) is not really that much lighter than any other class (13/15 comes out as 86% encumbered, 12/15 comes out as 80%).
It's like comparing the difference between running with a dagger and a katana. Dagger is faster, and can probably save your life on occassion, but the difference is negligible.

 

[Aze]

If i propose some nerfs/adjustments:

1) Weight speed scaling - (This is an idea i think Undedd Jester proposed before, which i think is the best one regarding support's moevement speed i've seen so far) Make support have the same movement speed scaling from 1-15 exactly the same as other classes, regardless of what his current max carry amount is. But once the Support carries more than 15 (Anywhere from 16-24), it has the same speed as it was carrying 15/15 as any other class. That makes the perk still feel like a "heavy" class and without any hidden movement speed bonus. Good compromise?

2) Grenade damage - Imo, the grenade damage bonus should be completely removed. But, as a counterbuff (in form of a fitting utility) i would say, make the Support have an increased range to see welded doors' healthstatus! And make the distance VERY significant. For example (hypothetical numbers), if any other perk sees it from like 2 meters away, the Support should be able to see it from like 20 meters or so!

3) Grenade amount - Wether the grenade AMOUNT bonus should be removed, nerfed or kept, is not as essential as the damage bonus imo. However, if this bonus were to be removed as well i have another little supportive bonus that could replace it: Some form of FLASHLIGHT bonus! Like, increased flashlight battery regeneration or duration.

4) Shotgun weight and weight readjustment - I'd also propose a readjustment of the shotguns' weight and the weight bonus of the Support perk to something like this:
+1 weight bonus per Support level (So, 0 bonus for level 0 Support, up to 6 weight bonus at level 6 Support). That would mean a max capacity of 21 weight at level 6, rather than the current 24.
Then lower the weight of the shotguns. Give Shotgun a weight of 7 (down from 8), HSg a weight of 8 or 9 (down from 10), Combat Shotgun a weight of 7 or 8 (at 8 it would need some kind of buff, like more ammo or something), AA12 a weight of 9 (down from 10).
What all this would do in the end would be... Well, not all too much actually, except 3 things:
1) Lower level Support players would be able to carry 2 different kinds of Shotguns earlier than now
2) Level 6 Support players would not be able to carry as manyoffperk lightweight weapons (imo, it's a tad too much atm)
3) You could carry shotguns a bit more easily offperk.

 

[Amber Glass]

i think the point of the counter argument to the "speed buff" is that why spend the time fixing something so insignificant. Since when will you ever see a support carrying less than 15kgs, even if you were to reduce the weight of the shotguns? i am actually surprised people have mentioned it considering there is nearly no difference in speed between support and other perks. if you were to "nerf" this "bonus" (quotes because i hardly consider it a bonus, more so a balance detail), what do you suggest should be done in turn? weight reduction of shotguns as you suggested would do nothing but benefit other perks who wish to carry a shotgun. a support carrying two would still put it over 15kgs, which likewise puts them at the same speed as any other perks carrying a full load according to your proposed "fix".

this is almost always the case anyways, as most people choose to carry the pump/csg, hunting/aa12, and an axe or katana. you also suggest nerfing supports carrying limit, but really how often do you see a support spec loading up solely on offperk weapons? even if you are going for an unusual loadout, you will still be carrying at least 1 shotgun a majority of the time, which are still the heaviest weapons in the game. This is one of the main points of support, being able to carry a large variety of weapons, shotguns in particular.

really the only OP part of this perk is the multiple pellet registration glitch of shotguns, which cause them to do far more damage than they should. fix that, and the perk wouldn't be OP at all.

 

[Althamus]

2) Grenade damage
3) Grenade amount
4) Shotgun weight and weight readjustment

I would have no problem with supports losing their grenade damage bonus - after all, they're a support class, not a demolitions expert.
However, because they're support role, I personally quite like them having a lot of grenades. Whether this should stay at 11 or drop down to something like 8-9 doesn't matter so much as them having more than normal classes to me.
I agree that shotguns should weigh less and supports should be able to carry less. It's a bit silly at the moment.

You seem more interested in explaining why either your reasoning is correct or why mine is wrong, but not why the speed bonus should stay.

Very well then. I believe the number of situations in which the support would have a speed advantage which is actually noticable ingame (ie. not like the zerker's speed buff over the medic) is so few that it makes no odds if he keeps it. In addition, all the ideas to nerf his speed bonus seem (to me) to either hamstring the support in quite a painful way, or to not seem realistic (weighing 15/24 moves at the same speed as 24/24).

 

[Azukki]

More than longer reloads, support needs to lose the grenade bonuses. It made sense before the demo was in the game, but now it's weird, having two perks have bonuses for them. Support could use a nerf at the moment anyways, too, so I think handing grenades entirely over to the explosives master would be for the best.

I agree about the Hunting shotgun for sure. Reloading itself when it's slung away is overpowered and wacky. Especially considering how arbitrary it is that you can do that if you use the double blast, but not if you take two separate shots. If you actually had to reload it either way, firing one barrel at a time would become practical in some situations, which would be good.

As for the pump shotgun, slowing it down and making it and the CSG reload at the same rate sounds good, (in part for the purpose of making the CSG more viable in comparison) but making both reload at the CSG's current rate sounds too slow. I suggest that they both switch to an intermediate rate, somewhere around .77s per shell. (for reference, SG is .66s/shell, CSG is .9s/shell)

 

[The Clown]

If the weighted runspeed of the support is changed it ought to be as mentioned before - 15/24 runs just as fast as 24/24 - but I don't think it's that important. I would never had known about it if I hadn't seen it pointed out on these forums. If you're at the point where the extra carry capacity gives you any kind of noticeable runspeed increase then you're spawning with a SG/HSG and you end up even with the other perks.

Any changes to the grenade bonuses should be limited to the damage increase and not the number carried. Grenades have a use outside of combat: busting open doors, which kind of fits into support's door-welding role. Also, they can be used to clear out zeds from behind doors with windows, like on biotics lab and biohazard.
And keeping the number of nades as opposed to the damage bonus (11 x 300 > 5 x 450) is better for support's role on high difficulties: dealing large spikes of damage to a target as opposed to killing them outright.

Also, in regards to support's ability to KO scrakes: my understanding of it is that crouching and shooting up causes the pellets penetrate through the body and head, effectively hitting twice with one shot. Would it help if we gave the scrake headshot resistance to the shotguns like he has with the xbow? A ~37% resistance should counteract the 1.6 HSM of the shotguns, making headshots no more (and no less) effective then body shots.
It wouldn't fix the core problem - the multiple hitbox hits - but it might give the scrake a chance to break his flinch and hit the player.

 

[Aze]

As for what you said about changing the weight of the shotguns (in addition to weight limit for support), you'd have to be specific before I really knew what to think. If you take the higher values or lower values together, you either can/t carry an axe, which would make some people angry.

I'd think i'd more so suggest the lower values (at least for the regular Shottie and HSg). Then there isn't much of nerf in it, but still does the "changes" i listed earlier.

i think the point of the counter argument to the "speed buff" is that why spend the time fixing something so insignificant. Since when will you ever see a support carrying less than 15kgs, even if you were to reduce the weight of the shotguns? i am actually surprised people have mentioned it considering there is nearly no difference in speed between support and other perks. if you were to "nerf" this "bonus" (quotes because i hardly consider it a bonus, more so a balance detail), what do you suggest should be done in turn? weight reduction of shotguns as you suggested would do nothing but benefit other perks who wish to carry a shotgun. a support carrying two would still put it over 15kgs, which likewise puts them at the same speed as any other perks carrying a full load according to your proposed "fix".

this is almost always the case anyways, as most people choose to carry the pump/csg, hunting/aa12, and an axe or katana. you also suggest nerfing supports carrying limit, but really how often do you see a support spec loading up solely on offperk weapons? even if you are going for an unusual loadout, you will still be carrying at least 1 shotgun a majority of the time, which are still the heaviest weapons in the game. This is one of the main points of support, being able to carry a large variety of weapons, shotguns in particular.

really the only OP part of this perk is the multiple pellet registration glitch of shotguns, which cause them to do far more damage than they should. fix that, and the perk wouldn't be OP at all.

I'm not saying it was the best suggestion for a nerf/change. For all i care, the bonus speed with the added weight can stay too, as i too think the speed bonus is so tiny it doesn't really matter.
From my pov, i'd say the speed boost actually makes sense. I see the support perk as a strong (like "lifting weights" strong), and thus, when carrying heavy stuff he acts like all the other "weaker" perks, and becomes more "equallized" in encumbrance. But when with low encumbrance, his strength gives him a more lightweight feel and thus also runs faster. Or something like that *shrugs*

I would have no problem with supports losing their grenade damage bonus - after all, they're a support class, not a demolitions expert.
However, because they're support role, I personally quite like them having a lot of grenades. Whether this should stay at 11 or drop down to something like 8-9 doesn't matter so much as them having more than normal classes to me.
I agree that shotguns should weigh less and supports should be able to carry less. It's a bit silly at the moment.

This is pretty much my exact standpoint too lol
One additional reason why i like the Support perk to keep extra amount of grenades (but no damage bonus) is the added capacity to explode doors (fast "unwelding" if you will), just like The Clown pointed out (thanks for reminding me about that, i knew there was something i forgot! ^^)
But if the Support perk got some tool(s)/weapon(s) that could weld at range and/or unweld or break a door instantly (Nail gun to weld, jackhammer to break down a door instantly), then i would scrap the extra grenade capacity as well. After all, the grenades belong to the Demo perk now (just like Azukki said as well)

I agree about the Hunting shotgun for sure. Reloading itself when it's slung away is overpowered and wacky. Especially considering how arbitrary it is that you can do that if you use the double blast, but not if you take two separate shots. If you actually had to reload it either way, firing one barrel at a time would become practical in some situations, which would be good.

As for the pump shotgun, slowing it down and making it and the CSG reload at the same rate sounds good, (in part for the purpose of making the CSG more viable in comparison) but making both reload at the CSG's current rate sounds too slow. I suggest that they both switch to an intermediate rate, somewhere around .77s per shell. (for reference, SG is .66s/shell, CSG is .9s/shell)

These are also 2 good suggestions

 

[poosh]

You can check my ScrnBalance mutator, where some of suggestions listed here are already implemented:

• Grenade damage bonus completely removed
• Grenade amount bonus left as it is
• Adjusted speed to default carry weight (15), not the current one (24). So speeds 15/15 and 15/24 were made equal, while 24/24 < 15/15 (tbh I haven't noticed a big difference).
• Combat Shotgun's price reduced from 2500 down to 1500.
• Combat Shotgun's reload speed increased (from 0.9s to 0.75s per shell). But even now I still prefer Pump shotgun.
• While holding a Welder you can see door health from longer distance. Supports have +3m bonus per level, reaching 30m long distance @ level 6.

In the future I'm planning to make also the following changes:

• Breaking HSg reload should leave the gun empty
• Allow to reload a single shell, if another was used in primary fire
• Fix a bug, when you can load 3 shells

 

[Undedd Jester]

If I'm brutally honest, although I was main advocate of the Support being a tad OP, the only thing that makes the support overpowered really is the Scrake trick and the fact when combined with an extra firearm his ammo easily survives the wave. (Possibly the HS reload trick too, but I think it should stay myself.)

Given that the Support doesn't really hurt the gameplay of KF by much (despite those rather boring games where half the team goes support and triple smashes everything that moves), I wouldn't be too concerned with taking any action against the support really.

The main thing that needs addressing is the Berserker, but should the support get a look at too I'd say dropping his overall carry weight to 21 instead of 24 would limit his builds just enough that it eliminates pretty much all concerns of OPness.

Plus the levelling up looks nicer too since its 1 addtional weight block per level

 

[Rhenna]

I like Aze's suggestions on this matter quite a bit. (This wouldn't be the first time that happened.)

With regard to the increased weight capability, I suppose I always imagined the Support types as these stout, burly lads who would naturally be able to lug around the heavier toys. There may well be better examples, but conjure up someone akin to Jesse Ventura in Predator, or "Tex" Cobb in Uncommon Valor. Men like these.

Along this line of thought, please set aside the coding headaches, and the fact that it's too late to implement; I'd be in favor of capping an Ash Harding-style Support Specialist at around 19 blocks, or so.

Why? Because, simply put, biology isn't always fair. Also, aside from a touch of realism, it would also add a new circumstance that players would need to develop a strategy for, and it seems like the KF vets are always looking for some fresh challenge. I wouldn't nerf the female characters this way for the other perks, however.

Currently, the CSG gets you coming and going, as in, faster to empty *and* slower to reload, versus the pump. In terms of reloading, I can't see any real justification why it shouldn't be the same as the pump. It isn't that the weapon was engineered to be difficult in that regard. Making refilling the CSG even slower would be the death-knell for this already troubled weapon. How about we just make it a muzzle-loader? They're pretty slow on the reload op.

I'd lose the damage bonus for the Support's grenades, and swap the total quantity carried with the Demo perk. That seems more consistent to me.

 

[Althamus]

Once you make the genders different in one way though, you open the door for all sorts of other ways they could/should be different.
Plus, generally speaking, men are just better at a lot of military type activities. Do you show them as being better overall, or keep both genders equal? If you don't keep them equal, how on earth do you justify this?
/canofworms

In fact, I'll make a brand new topic on that front, because it's worthy of an entire new topic in and of itself.

Edit: http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=1094678#post1094678

Currently, the CSG gets you coming and going, as in, faster to empty *and* slower to reload, versus the pump.

Sums it up in one, and the main reason why I don't use it.

 

[Rhenna]

Once you make the genders different in one way though, you open the door for all sorts of other ways they could/should be different.

Perhaps. But, let's set gender aside for just a moment. As I see it, for the Sharpshooter, Demo, Firebug and Commando, when examining their special abilities, we're not so much dealing with physical advantages, but, instead, a well-practiced set of skills. Sure, the Demo and 'Bug have their unique damage resistance, but, personally, I see that as being a characteristic of their specific tactical gear as opposed to some sort of physical trait.

Now, the Medic and Beserker are clearly light on their feet, a definite physical quality. If we were to re-introduce the gender aspect into the discussion at this point, I, personally, don't think that creating some sort of delta in movement speed between the two genders playing these two perks would be worth the trouble. I suppose one could argue that, say, a male Medic running across the entire length of KF-Mountain Pass would clearly demonstrate his inherent stamina over his female counterpart who is doing the very same trek, but I think that would be a pretty weak justification for having two different movement values, and wouldn't translate into anything meaningful during a game.

But, when it comes to the Support Specialist, the weight-carrying advantage this perk enjoys is a very significant attribute, and one that would seemingly be most likely explained as being due to physical strength and stature. This is, I believe, really the only example of where a gender-related difference might be justified. Using Ash as an example, while she certainly appears healthy and physically fit, as a Support, she doesn't strike me as a 24 block-capable sort of girl. I just felt that nerfing a few blocks from her maximum weight limit would be adding just a dash of realism, and, as I mentioned earlier, might provide a small challenge for a few folks who play Support and perhaps have become a bit too reliant on their carrying capacity. Yeah, we haven't had character-specific perk differences in the past, but we haven't had the female gender officially represented, either.

Plus, generally speaking, men are just better at a lot of military type activities.

Well, I absolutely agree that, when it comes to those who are at the proverbial "tip of the spear" that should be a male-only location. I don't view the military as either a place for social experimentation, or, as an equal-opportunity employer. Rather, I view it as an entity that exists primarily to kill people and destroy things. While I certainly believe that women can be as patriotic, dedicated and focused as their male conterparts, and can rock'n'roll if needed, I don't see how mandating having a bunch of women in a front-line trench, staring eyeball-to-eyeball with the bad guys, enhances a unit commander's ability to kill those very same bad guys. At best, it may not hurt that ability, but it isn't improving it under any circumstances. Just my two cents...

Do you show them as being better overall, or keep both genders equal?

In the case we're fantasizing about, here, (and, believe me, this is all we're doing), other than this one exception, I'd opt to keep them equal.

If you don't keep them equal, how on earth do you justify this?

Because, as I mentioned before, biology isn't fair. That is why some 110 lb. female isn't playing offensive left-tackle for the Baltimore Ravens, or some 285 lb. male isn't dancing the part of the Sugar Plum Fairy in The Nutcraker for the New York City Ballet. (Either example is too frightening to contemplate.)

 

[poosh]

Recently I was checking out Boomstick's source code (original class name of the Hunting Shotgun) and found out some interesting facts:

1. "There is no spoon". There is not such thing as "reload" in HSg code. What you see on your screen is 2.5 seconds long fire animation. You can watch it till the end or you can just skip it by switching to another weapon like you're skipping commercials by switching to another TV channel. No matter of what you've chosen, after 2.5s HSg will have another 2 shells loaded and ready to shoot. That is the first exploit, which I call the "Skip-Realoading" exploit.

2. HSg doesn't check current amount of ammo in magazine (weapon) before shooting. From the one side, it doesn't supposed to, because it automatically reloads after each shot (or each 2-nd single shot) and it is true... in 98.387% situations. But from the other side, if player manages to fire the gun without the following reload, he will be able to shoot out all his ammunition without a single reload needed. That is "Auto-Fire" exploit.

3. Because HSg doesn't check out the magazine before shooting, but just plays long fire animation (fire+reload) on each 2-nd single shot made, you can use the technique similar to "Medic Gun Dropping exploit" to restore your 2-shot reserve without reloading. But the Dropping Exploit is nothing comparing to skip-reloading or auto-fire abilities.

So here we are: 3 exploits just because some TWI guys made weird mechanics for HSg, different from other KF weapons.

So I've made my own version of Hunting Shotgun, which you can test by using ScrnBalance mutator:

• All 3 exploits fixed
• Single shell reload enabled

And when I was testing my version of HSg, I found out the most interesting thing, that I couldn't even imaging: Without Skip-Reload exploit it is almost impossible to use "Nade+HSg+Nades+HSg" technique to solo-kill Fleshpound!
After HSg shot you need to wait 2.5s to finish reload and in that time you can't throw nades! But nade you've thrown before the HSg shot will detonate in 2.0s, i.e. before you'll be able to throw more. So it isn't a grenade damage bonus, that overpowers the Support Spec., but those exploits are...

 

[BenioX]

For one: wow I am so suprirpsed there was no "That's it!" in the OP!

For two: I agree with everything except from regular shotty, also AA12 is already pain with how slow it is so far...

Edit: For three: Interesting facts Poosh