Should the sway be like this?

[catfish@rock]

RO2 rifle sway - YouTube

There is sway, and plenty of it, but under realistic conditions (in this case, the character is out of breath and trying to regain breath control to shoot). Your character doesn't start getting the Palsy twitches until after he's held the gun up for a few seconds. Again, realistic.

You're constantly ignoring RO2 sway is very insignificant allowing every single player for elite marksmanship freely.

Lack of twitch, sway similar to real weapon handling results in uber high hit rate unprecedented in any real world warfare and fps games.

Most here in forum and many gaming vets noticed this, only you and handful of ppl seem to be in denial. how so..

 

[Josef Nader]

You're constantly ignoring RO2 sway is very insignificant allowing every single player for elite marksmanship freely.

Most here in forum and many gaming vets noticed this, only you and handful of ppl seem to be in denial. how so..

I'd estimate the distance from the shooter to that building is ~75m in-game, maybe less. Look at the scale, and try to envision a German soldier running across the space he's aiming at. Tell me that sway wouldn't screw your aim and you'd be a liar.

The vets are used to their characters swaying around like workers at the vodka plant, so of -course- they're going to say it's not enough. Everyone else seems to think it's fine, but I guess they don't count. Anyone who thinks the sway is fine must be some CoD loving twitch-shooter who hates realism and who didn't pay retail price for the game, huh?

 

[catfish@rock]

I'd estimate the distance from the shooter to that building is ~75m in-game, maybe less. Look at the scale, and try to envision a German soldier running across the space he's aiming at. Tell me that sway wouldn't screw your aim and you'd be a liar.

I've told you before, its not entirely about extent of sway, but it's about speed of sway; twitch.
If the movement is very slow and dead easy to adjust, it's not meaningful at all to affect accuracy.
RO2 sway is really slow dead slow, it doesn't make any difference in accuracy.

While in real life, muscle twitches, it means move small but FAST.
RO2 sway is SLOW.


[/QUOTE]The vets are used to their characters swaying around like workers at the vodka plant, so of -course- they're going to say it's not enough. Everyone else seems to think it's fine, but I guess they don't count. Anyone who thinks the sway is fine must be some CoD loving twitch-shooter who hates realism and who didn't pay retail price for the game, huh?[/QUOTE]

I am actually comparing RO2 with america's army 3 sway, ARMA2 sway and ballistics.

Compared to above games, RO2 is very easy spot on semi-quake railgun shooting.

 

[Derpus]

I only want more sway for being out of breath and maybe suppression. Any more and it's just silly.

 

[catfish@rock]

Really hoping for some serious modders to correct this arcadic issue and some more contents.

Wish luck for core gamers.
Till then so long. RO2.

 

[MadMax]

Probably the sway in RO2 is more close to firing real weapons then compared to the artificial sway in ROOST.

On the other hand I think when people are under fire, ****ing in their pants, they can't fire a weapon as precise and fast as like shooting at a shooting range. I would guess the aiming would take more time under firefigth conditions then it would be under "optimal" conditions.

So the conclusion for me is that ROOST did implement the aiming much more realistic then RO2.

 

[Das Bose]

Please not RO1 weapon mechanics. I had many years to decide just how exaggerated they were, and I certainly don't want them back. If I did want them back I would play RO1.

Am I saying RO2 is perfect? Hell no, but it's a lot closer than RO1. Any changes need to be very small.

 

[The_Cook]

right now,stand up and raise your left arm up and strech it out and point your finger at 3 meter target spot.
Close your left eye just like you do when you fire assault rifle.
and watch how your tip of the finger moves while trying to point at the exactly same spot for 20 second.

They moves very small in extent up and down, left and right but much faster than ro2 which almost seem like twitch, making keeping exactly stable aiming for same spot almost impossible.

RO1 sway itself is a little bit exaggerated, but not slow movement like ro2 which begs no significance in aiming.
How anyone can miss this?

In my speculation, insignificant unrealistic sway is TWI's desperate attempt to ease up on realism and make some cash.

Any weapon handler can point out weapon sway and ballisitcs in the game is not exactly realistic, ARMA2 had somewhat realistic sway and ballistics.

ppl might say there's not enough space for players to feel the ballistics, however, when I was in the army, I was told to fire lower part of the target if the target is under 150 meters away, cos bullet tend to fly a bit higher than targeting point, after 300m? bullet slowly drops.

That theory was for M16a2, I don't know about WW2 rifle ballistics but no matter what distance there is between gun and the target, you don't have to aim lower at all and bullets are bulleye spot on all the time disregarding ballisitics.

For a person who had to shoot a rifle for a living you're woefully uneducated. a basic and simple explanation of why this happens is very simple. Imagine hurling a rock out of a catapult. Bullets out of guns are the same way. Both objects are subject to the 32ft per second drop of gravity. Bullets have a much flatter tradjectory because of higher velocity avg 1500-2500fps. the reason why you aim lower when 50yrds and under is because most rifles are Zero'd @ 100yrds. meaning.... screw this here is an img file.. much more self explanatory. basically if you set any rifle down on a table that puts the barrel at exactly 32ft off the ground take a lvl to it and make it 0 bubble, and fire down range depending on the speed of the bullet say.. 1000fps it will hit dirt in 1 second after traveling 1000ft. in it's flight arc if you take a snapshot say at .5seconds the bullet will be 500ft down range and 16 feet off the ground. etc.. etc.. etc.. to compensate for this your barrel relative to the scope is angled upward to varying degrees depending on your particular bullet physics. the farther out you want to hit say 1000yrds, the more angled upward your barrel is relative to the scope. In essence we have not gotten past Lobbing **** at ****. we just do it at a greater fps than our caveman ancestors.

So say you have a rifle zeroed in at 100yrds with a bullet traveling 1000fps. you shoot at a target 25yrds. You have to aim lower because you bullet will be still going in it's upward arc.

so here is a question w/ a bullet that travels @ 1000fps where would you have to aim to hit a target 330yrds away if your rifle was scoped @ 0yrds. (mind you this doesn't take into account how much a bullet slows down as it travels due to air resistance, that's a whole nother bag. we'll keep this simple)

 

[IceShade]

I think we all agree that RO1's sway was just over the top, but there seem to be very little repercussions to not resight your weapon / rest for a moment after holding your weapon up for 15 minutes.

There is sway, yes, and it is worse when you're out of breath, yes, but it is not much. For example our good old snipy campy map Fallen Fighters. I can sprint from spawn up to the campy windows, sight my weapon and accurately fire at the troops 200 meters away. I can hold my weapon up for the rest of the match and not notice a drop in accuracy.

I guess all the soldiers have bionic arms, or exoskeletons, or something.

 

[Das Bose]

This is why these threads always make me chuckle. The OP is complaining that the weapon mechanics are not realistic, and he doesn't understand the first thing about how they work

 

[Holy.Death]

You're constantly ignoring RO2 sway is very insignificant allowing every single player for elite marksmanship freely.

What is distance for your usual kill distance?

I am not against slight changes to make long distance kills more challenging (as they should be), but we need to know what "elite marksmanship" is and when "long distance kill" happens in the first place.

My propositions:
- Make stamina bar much more important when aiming down sights and controlling your breath?
- Make breath control affect your stamina bar?
- Make ADS a bit slower (not too much) to discourage people from instant shooting? (Or it is realistic that people can ADS as fast as they do this in game? I am not certain.)
- Maybe add a bit of sway, but only enough to affect aiming above 300 meters AND that shouldn't make longer shoots impossible to be done, but only harder?
- Add bullet spread, Mosins granted to marksmans were the best tested Mosins and standard ones were of lower quality and lower quality should have some disadvantages. This will make sniper rifles much more desired too?

The first mod I want to check out is Fire & Maneuver Realism Mod.

 

[The_Cook]

Probably the sway in RO2 is more close to firing real weapons then compared to the artificial sway in ROOST.

On the other hand I think when people are under fire, ****ing in their pants, they can't fire a weapon as precise and fast as like shooting at a shooting range. I would guess the aiming would take more time under firefigth conditions then it would be under "optimal" conditions.

So the conclusion for me is that ROOST did implement the aiming much more realistic then RO2.

You have never fired a weapon in your life. RO1 is about right when it comes to weapons sway. especially after running a couple laps. 100yrds standing unsupported with a short stocked hvy as hell crappy rifle like the nagant is friggin hard, keeping your arms and hands steady is a *****. 200yrds is really hard, 300yrds is godlike from a standing unsupported position especially after a couple of laps.

 

[The_Cook]

What is distance for your usual kill distance?

I am not against slight changes to make long distance kills more challenging (as they should be), but we need to know what "elite marksmanship" is and when "long distance kill" happens in the first place.

My propositions:
- Make stamina bar much more important when aiming down sights and controlling your breath?
- Make breath control affect your stamina bar?
- Make ADS a bit slower (not too much) to discourage people from instant shooting? (Or it is realistic that people can ADS as fast as they do this in game? I am not certain.)
- Maybe add a bit of sway, but only enough to affect aiming above 300 meters AND that shouldn't make longer shoots impossible to be done, but only harder?
- Add bullet spread, Mosins granted to marksmans were the best tested Mosins and standard ones were of lower quality and lower quality should have some disadvantages. This will make sniper rifles much more desired too?

Mausers and Mosins are about accuracy wise. Even after 60yrs and 1 ww my friends mosin he just bought a couple of months ago can put bullets on top of each other at 100yrds using a bench and bags i.e. no shooter error. @ 200yrds we got bullets within 1-2" groups.

As for ADS on the Mosin it is a PAIN in the ***. People don't realize how short and stubby that stock is. ALSO the recoil with it's wood stock and metal buttplate is equivalent to a 12gauge. GOODLUCK putting your sights anywhere close to what you were aiming at in the first place, not to mention the fact with the crappy hex bolts and the UBER pin spring on it you have to litter slap the **** out of the handle upwards than ram it back and foward to load a new round. I will challenge anyone to shoot a target @ 100yrds with a mosin ram in a new round and hit the same target in the time it takes in this game. we are talking GODLIKE. reaquiring the target is a pain the *** with the mosin.

Mausers are alittle better cause of the fact the have the MAUSER action. there is a reason why practically every modern rifle uses this action. you can pretty much do what this game does ads reloading wise. not much of a hassle throwing lead down range with a mauser action rifle. but still this game does it way fast, and you get perfect sight picture every time like your dude is a robot. aim and shoot at something, reload, you are aiming exacly where you left of (*cough* BULL**** *cough*)

dude 300yrds standing unsupported is friggin hard REALLY friggin hard REALLY REALLY friggin hard that's 3 football fields away... are you aware how far away that is? 3 FOOTBALL FIELDS AWAY.... most people have trouble seeing another person THREE FOOTBALL FIELDS away...

but I do like your first three suggestions

 

[Cyper]

No, weapon sway shouldn't neccesary be like in RO1 - at least not if we're talking about realism. One thing I do know - the current weaponhandling in RO2 is rubbish and should be changed completely. Right now here is no real learningcurve for the weapons at all. Everyone can shoot them without spending hours upon hours practising.

 

[Holy.Death]

dude 300yrds standing unsupported is friggin hard REALLY friggin hard REALLY REALLY friggin hard that's 3 football fields away... are you aware how far away that is? 3 FOOTBALL FIELDS AWAY.... most people have trouble seeing another person THREE FOOTBALL FIELDS away...

I didn't mean standing unsupported position. My point is that effective combat range ends somewhere around 300 meters and only real marksman can kill a target beyond that point (as far as I know record for iron sight bolt-action rifle is 451 meters).

That's another problem - how sway should be for different stances we can take in game? Is firing above cover after taking cover considered to be firing with supported weapon?

 

[Rrralphster]

[sarcasm]There was a time they gave free temp bans for posting the 20,000th thread about the same topic. Those were the days...[/sarcasm]

 

[The_Cook]

I didn't mean standing unsupported position. My point is that effective combat range ends somewhere around 300 meters and only real marksman can kill a target beyond that point (as far as I know record for iron sight bolt-action rifle is 451 meters).

That's another problem - how sway should be for different stances we can take in game? Is firing above cover after taking cover considered to be firing with supported weapon?

yes for game purposes it is considered supported same as it would in real life.

... depends on what position we are talking about? sitting, standing, crouched, prone, supported? unsupported? A person can be expected to hit a 300yrd target fairly easilly in the prone position. in fact 100-300yrds isn't that bad at all on a man sized target in ANY supported position. if you just did a couple laps around the parking lot it's a bit harder. From an unsupported sitting position 300yrds is a moderate to difficult shot. after running around a difficult shot. from a crouch unsupported a difficult shot, after running a really difficult shot. standing 300yards unsupported is a really really difficult shot, 300yrds unsupported after running is a godlike shot. I can consistently hit moving and non moving targets 200-300meters away from a standing unsupported position while right after running and out of stamina in this game. Why? cause there is no motion sway at all in this game. RO1 had it pretty darn correct. The only reason why I can't hit **** farther than 200-300 yrds is because I just can't see that far away.. I have to put my face right up to my big *** monitor and squint to see anything. (that's why I like the sniper rifles, I have bad eyes and the magnification makes it alittle easier.)

Here is something to try if you have a school with a football field. take something round that is 5" in diameter and go stick it on the pole.. or sit it on the grass or something. then go running 100yrds away and turn around and see how easy it is to look at it. basically that's what a 16" diameter object looks like at 300yrds. (16" being a rough guestimation of a human head) then take a long stick hold it by one end and look down it's length at the object, Try to keep that object right ontop of the tip and steady it's not that easy.

Ultimately what i hate about most all video games is that they has managed to uneducate so many people about firearms in general. WHOLE generations of children will have grown up thinking a headshot from a pistol @ 250yrds is something any person can do.

 

[Grobut]

Anyone who's spent a few afternoons shooting would be able to hit a man-sized target at 100m, and a head-sized target at 50m. Sway doesn't factor into it. It's a shot any decent shooter can make with ease.

Any decent shooter can make the shot, yes, but they can't make it at the sheer speed it is routinely done in Ro2, it does take some time to line up a good shot.

In Ro2 it takes only 0.5 seconds to bring your rifle from hip to aimed, and roughly 2 seconds to aquire the target on average at aprox 100 meters. Thouse are results i can't even duplicate fiering an Air-rifle at 10 meters in real life, atleast not if i want to hit anywhere near the center of the target.

And i shoot maybe 3 or 4 times a week, every week, so it's not from lack of routine, i just spent 20 pellets right now actually and timed myself, and at less than 10 meters my average time was 5 seconds from hip to an aim i was happy enough with to take the shot (and my groupings did suck, i was rushing it trying to get faster times, and it showed on the target).
And yeah, a full second of that was the time it took just to bring the gun up, i just can't bring that time down to 0.5 like in Ro2, i just can't, i can get the gun up there in time, but i can't do that AND bring my eye to a useable sight picture in half a second.

Now granted, i was aiming for the bullseye, and not just to hit somewhere on the target, and that's what's taking the time. But then, this is at a bit less than 10 meters at a 14x14cm target, a rifleman in a window at 100 meters would be a smaller target in your sights than the black center of this target at 10.


So it's really not a matter of "can you hit at 100 meters", because you can, and i could probably trawl Youtube right now and find a dusin vids showing people do just that with a Mosin or Kar. But i can promis you that none of thouse vids are going to show a guy standing with the gun at his hip, and taking no more than 3 seconds to bring up the gun, aim, fire and hit (not unless it was uploaded because it was a 1 in a million shot). That's all it takes in Ro2, 3 seconds, if not infact 2.5 (0.5 to bring up, 2 seconds for the sight picture to stabalize, which are 2 seconds you can use to mouse the front sight over the target, more than plenty if you have any FPS skillz).

And that's what's wrong here, it's not that we're hitting at 100 meters, no that's fine, and we could certainly do that in Ro1 aswell, it's the speed at which we're doing it that just isen't right.


Now we can argue all bloody day about Ro1's sway not beeing an accurate 1:1 reprisentation of what it looks like if you shoulder a bloody broomstick or even a gun, but the fact of the matter is that, whilst the mechanic might have looked overdone, it got realistic results, we could hit targets just fine, but we had to either spend a little time doing it, or just take a chance on a quick shot and risk it not hitting.

In Ro2 it's to damn easy, and we're doing it to fast, it is an improment at point blank ranges, where Ro1's mechanics were to clunky and to slow (hitting a man at 2 meters should not take that long), and you just had to try from the hip because the aiming animation took something like 2.5 seconds, but at medium to long ranges we're putting Olympic Biathletes to shame.


Now i'm not going to tell you that Ro1 got it perfect, because it's true that visually, it's mechanic didn't look realistic, it was overdone to get the results that it did (pushing a mouse around on a table just isen't the same as holding a rifle), and it was clunky, to the point that it made CQB harder than it should be.

But Ro2 is no better, for one it needs to take longer to bring the gun up, but whilst it's more realistic in CQB, it's less realistic at range, we're aiming to fast.

So by all means, i'm interested in talking alternatives, Ro1 did not hit the sweet spot and Ro2 doesen't either, so what would?

 

[TeaLeaf]

Sway should be somewhere in between RO1 and RO2. It'll end up acting like random deviation but I'm okay with that as long as it's the same for every weapon.

 

[Luckless]

You're constantly ignoring RO2 sway is very insignificant allowing every single player for elite marksmanship freely.

Lack of twitch, sway similar to real weapon handling results in uber high hit rate unprecedented in any real world warfare and fps games.

Most here in forum and many gaming vets noticed this, only you and handful of ppl seem to be in denial. how so..

I've been at ranges with things ranging from slings, javelins, and bows, through pistols, shotguns, and rifles, all the way up to experimental 40mm autocannons firing at 1000RPM.

RO1 has nothing to do with how point of aim works in real life. Not even close.


Frankly, if you want 'fast twitch', why don't we replace the whole aiming mechanic with a dice roll? Because that basically is what you are trying to accomplish. A totally random factor the user has little to no control over for no other reason than to make him miss so you can run out in the open like an idiot and not worry as much about getting shot.


The only thing I don't like about the current weapon handling in the game is how quickly the sights settle after quickly moving the point of aim. We should always reliably be able to make shots under 20m, even with snap shooting and from the hip. 100m should need a few seconds to align everything before you can make a reliable shot, and out to 300m should be even longer. However, it should never be a dice roll, and we should always be reasonably lethal.


Players should never have the idea in the back of their mind that "Hey, I'm likely safe here, because even if they fire at me, the chances are they're going to miss."