Should "relaxed realism" mode be limited to single player only?

[SchutzeSepp]

what i think will be neccesary is to limit as much as possible the options that can be "dumbed down" in the realism mode.
otherwise i fear server admins will be tempted to host a "realism mode" server, but then dumb down all the possible option to make it as easy as possible. it would be a cheap move to create a popular realism server, that in fact isn't one.

 

[Nimsky]

It would be nice if server admins could easily change the realism setting by a simple change in the .ini file or something. Change "Realism=0" to "Realism=1" and you have full realism similar to RO: Ostfront (or even more realistic).

Server admins could then choose which features they want to disable; death messages, spectating, etc.

Similarly, server admins could choose how to configure a "relaxed realism" server: hit detection on or off, "near-hit" detection, radar, HUD elements, etc.

Basically, allow admins to enable or disable all of the new features (if that's possible). That way it would be possible to create gameplay almost identical to RO: Ostfront. Everyone happy.

That is not to say I won't enjoy the new "highest realism" setting in RO:HOS, I'll have to play it first. Heck, maybe I'll even enjoy "relaxed realism". I'll give TWI the benefit of the doubt. But I wouldn't be sad if new things like hit detection and radar wouldn't even be in the game in the first place.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

The sideeffect will probably be that more servers possibly end with relaxed realism, and i would prefer most people to play the realistic setting however that ends up to be.

i understand adding in these new features to help newcomers have an easier transition into the realism style of RO, which makes sense having the "easier" mode as default to bring new people in slowly.

the negative side effects are the reason why i'd rather see the default as the traditionally "more" realistic mode. if the "easier" mode is made default, the majority of people that come into the game and will not even realize that there is a whole other level of realism in the game. what i am afraid of is that more people will get used to it and we'll end up seeing a large majority of servers using the "less" realistic mode. the worst part will be for any competitions......the people who've been playing RO in it's "hardcore realism" style for so long will want the most realistic mode as possible whereas you're going to get new players/clans coming in thinking that because "relaxed realism" is the default mode, then competition should allow use of many of the new unrealistic features being added.

that's why i say keep the steep learning curve for RO as the default.....if people want to opt to use the less realistic mode then they have that chance. and i also agree with yoshiro about all those who voted "yes". who cares about single player.....most people by games like this for the multiplayer and if they were going to add these features to bridge the connection to RO then what good would it do only being in single player???

 

[Zetsumei]

well even if you look at relaxed realism in many cases the unrealistic features do not give an actual advantage or disadvantage when they would be disabled on the clients end rather than server end.

 

[Hasseli]

well even if you look at relaxed realism in many cases the unrealistic features do not give an actual advantage or disadvantage when they would be disabled on the clients end rather than server end.

And here I was trudging through all the near-tl;dr thinking that no one would mention it. Damn you Dutch people and your performance-enhancing marijuana! Although your short post does leave some room for elaboration...

To me, none of the aforementioned aids offer any benefit over the situational awareness that I've accumulated over the 5 years I've been playing RO, most of the time in a clan.

When I get shot, my headset (standard stereo, not surround) tells me the direction of the shot at least as accurately than any onscreen indicator would.

When the enemy is capping an objective, I don't learn this from the HUD icon any faster than I would from constantly checking my overhead map (which you get used to doing after playing clan matches).

The radar is a bit trickier, as it's sometimes hard to intuitively tell how many friendlies are around in RO. That's really the only likely-toggleable "unrealistic" feature I see giving any sort of advantage over not having one, albeit a very small one.

And that's the thing; the community does not need to be divided into those that only play hardcore realism and those that only play relaxed realism. The difference, as I've understood it, is merely in the interface, not the gameplay itself.

Ideally, the interface aids could also be toggled off from your clientside settings, so you could play on a server that allows other players (who are still getting their bearings) to have them enabled without making your game experience any less immersive.

Think of it as riding a bike: When as a wee lad you start training with your first bike, you use training wheels, as they provide you with more balance. After a while you gain the motor skills and muster the courage to ride your bike without the training wheels.

When's the last time you've seen grown up, healthy people revert back to training wheels?

 

[Floyd]

...
When's the last time you've seen grown up, healthy people revert back to training wheels?

When they just want to play. ie: the 24/7 Danzig servers. If one needs a quick fix or doesn't have time to seed a server, they jump on one of them because they are populated. Its either that or don't play.

For me, I guess it would just depend upon what "relaxed realism" entails.
Either way, just please give server admins the tools to customize their servers.

 

[Flogger23m]

Its alrady hard to find a good server using this method so i'm not gonna be picky about is level of realism, I'm sure it wont change much anyway from one to another

3 - what makes you think that "relaxed realism" will be th most played?

You just answered your own question. I bolded it for you.


The majority of people will play with the easier settings if available.


Being "more realistic than CoD 4's hardcore mode!!1111" is not a good enough reason for me to play a game.

Even the arcade game that OFP2: DR is features more realistic gameplay than CoD 4's hardcore mode.

Your point?

If we go by Yoshis example of OFP, or both ArmAs for that matter, I do forsee a problem:

If you want to play as realisticly as possible, you'll have to either wait for a very long time for a server to fill up, or only play in organized games, as most of the servers, and especially most of the populated servers will be running the "Cadet"/"relaxed realism" mode.

IMHO, this doesn't make the community grow, it rather causes a rift and will create a second, presumably much larger "relaxed" community. Which, in the long run, will mean a decline and possibly extinction for us few "hardcore" people, as TW will focus on the larger audience rather than us few bitter, moaning and complaining realism loving players.

And fedorov: It's human nature that makes me predict this. The people in general will always use the easiest way. Just like most people start games on "easy".

This post is spot on. Especially the part in bold. When a developer finds that the interest of a game shifted one way, they will try and please them more. This will be the relaxed realism players.

While this title will likely still be good, the next RO (if there is one) will likely go the way Rainbow Six has.

do you think there'll be any clan tournament or any form of organized teamplay server that are going to run on the relaxed realism version?

Yes. Plenty of people play CoD 4 in clans. The relaxed version being more mainstream = more players, meaning it will be easier to get players to play in the tournaments.

and, as i said probably the diference between realism and rlaxed realism wont be much more that those directional indicators and the likes...

The features above are what separate a realism game from non-realism game.

they'll apreciate it, because realism is what RO is all about its is core and soul, once they reach it (once they passed the smoother learning curve) they'll be free to judge if they like its realism and stay and move on to the more hardcore mode, or they dont like it, and go back to play CoD

They'll play relaxed, move on to the realism, and see it as a worthless mode with less features. They'll complain that it is too realistic and that more "easy accessibility" (dumbing down the game) is needed to make the game even more fun.

TWI will probably notice the large number of players who think this, and will likely give the community what it wants.

We all know how that worked for Rainbow 6.

Edit: but well I guess it wouldnt hurt if they learn in SP mode and then have only the normal realism in MP, as the SP campaign would have already let them past that first day

That is what my poll and original post meant.

If they were targeting solely an audience than mainly goes for realism, features like the relaxed mode or hero status wouldn't be in the game. Sadly, I too know that TW can't survive financially if they only cater to this market, thus compromises have to be made.
Still, I am not happy with it.

This is sad but very true. You should look into Black Foot Studios if you have not already.

They are making a realism based tactical shooter (the project leader worked on the original Rainbow 6 games), and they can not find a publisher for the game, or any funding. The future looks bad for them, and it will take a while for them to release a stripped down version of their original intended project because it costs too much to produce a realistic game with no funding.

I don't know, I've discovered RO because I was a UT2k4 player which is quite the opposite of RO and since RO I haven't touched UT2k4 again

I can't talk about CoD because I've never played it multyplayer, I wasn't interested

I played RO first, then bought UT 2004. I loved UT 2004. I wish UT3 was a remake, as I liked the gameplay much more in 2004.

I'd still play it if there were enough servers.


I agree with REX's post as well.

 

[Fedorov]

You just answered your own question. I bolded it for you.

how the hell playing both versions answers my own question?

sry, I got lazy and don't want to read the rest of your post

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

fedorov you should go back and read it as he makes very good points.

that right there is what i hate about 90% of forum users. they make a point, then when somebody makes a long post with a substancially better arguement, they say "omg wall of text too much to read". if you're already posting on a forum, you've obviously got some time on your hands. least you could do is skim through the post and show some respect to the poster and perhaps maybe learn something from his post that could change your views.

point to flogger, and i dub thee Amatuer Forum Novelist #0142 if you want it

 

[Fedorov]

that right there is what i hate about 90% of forum users.

I love how people thow in the mighty percentage 90%, like they ran a poll, at least you didnt say 99%, that is the other one most used. but fine I'll resist my headache and read it.

Being "more realistic than CoD 4's hardcore mode!!1111" is not a good enough reason for me to play a game.

Even the arcade game that OFP2: DR is features more realistic gameplay than CoD 4's hardcore mode.

Your point?

not more, but 10x more, which should be enough (thats what the Ramm said, could be another mighty number tho), also, what else will you be playing when RO:Ost dies?

Yes. Plenty of people play CoD 4 in clans. The relaxed version being more mainstream = more players, meaning it will be easier to get players to play in the tournaments.

the core base of the RO community is about realism therefore its right to think that those most implicated with the game, server admins, ro:ladder, etc will run the more realistic version.

The features above are what separate a realism game from non-realism game.

I disagree, its the gameplay itself and the mechanics, there wont be healthpacks, x-hairs or bullet sponge rambos

They'll play relaxed, move on to the realism, and see it as a worthless mode with less features. They'll complain that it is too realistic and that more "easy accessibility" (dumbing down the game) is needed to make the game even more fun.

TWI will probably notice the large number of players who think this, and will likely give the community what it wants.

We all know how that worked for Rainbow 6.

I don't know I never played any R6, I hate modern combat

That is what my poll and original post meant.

and so I said it, I'm not really against having the relaxed realism only in SP so the average joe at least learn how to play the game.

I played RO first, then bought UT 2004. I loved UT 2004. I wish UT3 was a remake, as I liked the gameplay much more in 2004.

I'd still play it if there were enough servers.

My point is that I moved to the realistic shooter coming from a completely arcadey one

I agree with REX's post as well.

here, check the dates of those posts I made about FOV:

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=421815&postcount=1

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=478959&postcount=38

 

[REZ]

He's agreeing with what I said in this thread Feddy, not the FOV discussion. <3

..and just so people know, Fed and I go way back to the Mod days where we were on the same Russian BFE team. He was the best tanker in the game back then imo. I still remember throwing the rifles and catching them in mid-air

 

[Fedorov]

He's agreeing with what I said in this thread Feddy, not the FOV discussion. <3

..and just so people know, Fed and I go way back to the Mod days where we were on the same Russian BFE team. He was the best tanker in the game back then imo. I still remember throwing the rifles and catching them in mid-air

lol I may got a cluster**** of threads I don't know where I am anymore =P

Im sick and injured in the wrist so can't get out but can't play games either so I'm stuck at lurking tinternets which explains my recent high activity =P

btw good times those in BFE <3, I miss when the tanks had that "sweet angle of immortality" then it was like a game of chess =P

 

[MtnMan01]

It would be nice if server admins could easily change the realism setting by a simple change in the .ini file or something. Change "Realism=0" to "Realism=1" and you have full realism similar to RO: Ostfront (or even more realistic).

Server admins could then choose which features they want to disable; death messages, spectating, etc.

Similarly, server admins could choose how to configure a "relaxed realism" server: hit detection on or off, "near-hit" detection, radar, HUD elements, etc.

Basically, allow admins to enable or disable all of the new features (if that's possible). That way it would be possible to create gameplay almost identical to RO: Ostfront. Everyone happy.

That is not to say I won't enjoy the new "highest realism" setting in RO:HOS, I'll have to play it first. Heck, maybe I'll even enjoy "relaxed realism". I'll give TWI the benefit of the doubt. But I wouldn't be sad if new things like hit detection and radar wouldn't even be in the game in the first place.

***Yes Nimsky,that would be just great,server admins with choices.I believe IMHO.That most "new" players that are serious about RO:HOS will get there feet wet in the relaxed servers.

Than most will hear about the tough realism servers,with the true RO vets like most posters here,and will step up to the challenge.

I believe human nature will dictate that a person with a competative nature will want to compete with the best gamers playing on the (hard realism servers).ie.junior player progression to serious senior player.

I for 1 would not be happy if i were playing a new game and staying with a relaxed mode.I would be thinking,get to know things first in easy mode,than a leap to the realism servers,even if I had to hav my *** handed to me on a platter.This would make me more determined to get better.Which I hav been trying to do with some success with RO1 since Mod days.

But Servers like Clowns(DH's) are just great with a lot of vets,great team work,good leaders with the mic's/situation awareness,etc.Always a good fight there.

But time will tell.I hoping that most servers will go realism,with all bells n whistles off except with the couple thats needed.

But only after a few months will we all know,
just my ,02 cents worth,,, ~Seadog~

 

[Lucan946]

I think the above poster has a good point. There are tons of competitive gamers who, logically, want to be the best. If they know they are just playing on "easy" mode, they won't be satisfied. They'll want to take it to the next level and be the best. The doom and gloom being forecasted for the RO realism community is overly pessimistic, although it does have base.

 

[Sichartshofen]

I think people are getting too excited on what relaxed realism mode is. If you saw the demo that was relaxed realism mode. It's not going to be another CoD clone with health bars, crosshairs and attack dogs. RO has a steeper learning curve then other games. Relaxed realism mode is a way to get new players adapted to the game quicker without frustrating them. It will help keep the player base higher so we aren't stuck with 24/7 Danzig Enhanced 2 years later.

 

[DietOrange]

I think people are getting too excited on what relaxed realism mode is. If you saw the demo that was relaxed realism mode. It's not going to be another CoD clone with health bars, crosshairs and attack dogs. RO has a steeper learning curve then other games. Relaxed realism mode is a way to get new players adapted to the game quicker without frustrating them. It will help keep the player base higher so we aren't stuck with 24/7 Danzig Enhanced 2 years later.

Finally someone makes some sense

 

[Ermac]

Am I missing something? Are there realism settings in HOS?

 

[REZ]

Supposedly there is going to be a 'relaxed realism' mode (sort of an oxymoron) for those people who give up on games at the slightest hint of a challenge. Then, apparently, there will be a more true to RO as we know it 'realism' mode devoid of hand-holding fluff. Things are still in early development so we are hanging around discussing what little, albeit incomplete and subject to change, bits we've picked up from the shakey-cam vids.

 

[Ermac]

I never found the original RO to have that much of a learning curve anyways.

 

[Lucan946]

Supposedly there is going to be a 'relaxed realism' mode (sort of an oxymoron) for those people who give up on games at the slightest hint of a challenge. Then, apparently, there will be a more true to RO as we know it 'realism' mode devoid of hand-holding fluff. Things are still in early development so we are hanging around discussing what little, albeit incomplete and subject to change, bits we've picked up from the shakey-cam vids.

Oh for- the video IS relaxed realism. Tell me exactly how it's less challenging- as far as the core mechanics of game play go- as what you think realism will be.