Sharpshooter Rework idea

[Breadsticks_]

I'm back at it again, I had a load of fun making and discussing my SWAT rework, and had a look at a few posts about what classes do and don't work. With that I thought I'd have a go at looking at any way to make the SS any better. My problem with Sharpshooter is that when you look it at face value, the Headshot one shot role can be very similar to the Gunslinger. The Sharpshooter "should" do it better with the sacrifice of movement however it doesn't, instead of not giving the movement bonuses it lowers the movement speed as a whole for the damage trade off, which doesn't work in Killing Floor 2's playstyle. This meant looking at new ways to make the high damage less movement trade-off work.

Dealing damage with Sharpshooter weapons. Head shots with perk weapons.

Perk Bonuses:	​	​
+20% Recoil Reduction [0.8% per level]​	+25% Headshot Damage [1% per level]​	+50% Weapons Switch [2% per level]​
+50% Zed time Reload [1% per level]​	Increase Reload Speed​	Night Vision Capability​

Specialization:	​
Focus When aiming down sights, ignore the movement penalty, increase damage 10% and reduce recoil by 20%.	5​	Marksman Increase fire rate by 25% and movement speed by 10% when using perk weapons.
Death from Afar Increase headshot damage by 10%, to a maximum of 50% for every 10 metres that separates you from your target	10​	Always Prepared Carry one extra grenade and 25% more ammo for each perk weapon.
Skullcracker Headshots with perk weapons slow Zeds 30%	15​	Ballistic Shock Increase stun power of perk weapons by 100%
Rack ‘em up Consecutive Headshots with perk weapons will increase damage 10%, to a maximum of 50%	20​	Pin ‘em Down Consecutive headshots with perk weapons will increase stun power by 10%, to a maximum of 50%
Assassin Any headshot with perk weapons has a 5% chance to trigger Zed time. During Zed time, increase fire rate by 20% and headshot damage by 20%	25​	Ranger Any headshot with perk weapons has a 5% chance to trigger Zed time. During Zed time, your headshots will stun any Zed.

Changes
So there are a number of changes I made with the Sharpshooter, mainly being that your big guns can still deal pain and a better look at the playstyle of the SS, the current SS only has three passive skills and on their own they don't add much value to the rest of the class. Plus a dice up of the skills was needed so that you get a better flow of skills that better improve the experience.

• The introduction of the increased Reload Speed as a Passive helps give the Sharpshooter something from Level 0, it increases the pace for One Shot builds and adds survivability to the Stunner Sharpshooter.
• Zed time reload was what I felt a necessary introduction because as it is, this passive skill still isn't as strong as GS or SV, but gives the SS a chance to ready the next shot from their AMR or load a couple rounds into their centrefire.
• The Night Vision Capability from a gameplay stand point doesn't really add much but I feel that it just adds to the nuance and the theme of the SS, Splinter Cell style.
• I moved the Rack 'em Up skill down to Level 20 to challenge the new Level 20 skill that I talk about a little further down
• I gave the Skullcracker skill to the SS from the GS because it gives the feel that these larger threats are to be dealt at a distance, and such a mechanic felt right for a class that kills from a distance.
• I buffed the Assassin skill because on its own it only really works with the Railgun or the AMR; because they only have one shot to use during that time, so the rest of the arsenal can't really benefit from this Level 25 skill. The slight increase in Zed time fire rate felt well suited for the occasion, but in return a slight decrease to the damage you deal would stop the SS being scary OP with a commando.
• Always Prepared is moved up to Level 10 primarily for the skill's value, I think that this isn't a perk you want to see at higher levels because it feels like wasted potential, and such potential is given to the new perk Pin 'em Down.
• Ballistic Shock is moved down to level 15 to counteract the change with Always prepared, because as it is it has a good amount of value for the "CQC" sharpshooter.

New Skills
So there are only a few new skills because what the Sharpshooter now has is a few skills that need to nicely fill the gaps, so what I went with felt perfect for the job;

• Focus is a combination of steady and deadeye that was already in the Sharpshooter's tree. This felt necessary as a skill because it helps practice the newer players into improving their aim and going for the head, by making it a little easier and giving a small reward for doing so.
• Death from Afar is the idea that being at the back of the team's hold should be rewarded, especially when the FPs and Scrakes are generally bigger than the rest of the Zeds and such targets would be better dealt with from further away, so dealing with them quickly is better rewarded.
• Pin 'em Down was a fun idea meant to play against the Rack 'em Up bonus that gives more value to burst damage Sharpshooters that are out to stop larger Zeds in their tracks.

Summary
The primary objective was to make the movement trade off not feel uninviting and unrewarding. So instead of having the player crouch and be stationary whilst aiming down sights. The rewarding playstyle should be well placed shots and good positioning; being at the back of the team dealing big burst damage before the threat is close. This is the mentality I went for with the left side of the tree, ensuring that your positioning is well rewarded, and partnering up with the wrong classes can still be punishing (*ahem* Firebug *ahem*). With the right side of the tree it's the alternative; trading damage for a "safer" experience. A large focus on stunning Zeds will mean breathing room for another pair of hands to help out with larger Zeds and being able improve your success rate of surviving the tougher waves. Another thing I wanted to try and aim for was a class that can intertwine their skills from either side of the tree, and I felt that such a thing was achieved.

 

[Aleflippy]

Just like the other, let's have a closer look !

>The passives are decent, I think the best addition is the increased reload speed. I actually don't truly get why nearly every perk got that as a skill... That's just too valuable to pass up. I believe the only perk that gets a skip is the Commando (having extra ammo is just too fun). Plus it would make sense if everyone could reload THEIR OWN WEAPONS faster. That would also insist of the fact that the survivalist can use everything, but with less efficiency (as in : he reloads slower). Zed-time reload is also great and makes even more sense than the Commando's, since the SS is so reliant on zed-time to bring the pain. I believe I NEVER use night-vision, even on dark maps, but it doesn't hurt to have it.

>Focus is better by a thousand miles than the current "Sniper". Yeah sure, it does feel a bit similar to Gunslinger's "Steady", but it does fit the perk immensely. I dooo think it's slightly less specific than Marksman (which I'd probably use with guns with larger mags), but both seems to have their use.

>Death From Afar is so clever that I'm truly wondering how and why nobody thought of that before ! It just flows so naturally with what the sharp is supposed to do, and instead of crouching for half the game, one might even try to outrun a zed just to get a mere 10% damage boost. 50% is quite a generous buff for a perk that already deals plenty of damage...But at the same time, it needs you to have a keen eye and react just as fast. I love it. By comparison, "Always prepared" sounds quite boring... Helpful sure, but boring. Maybe it could have a little something extra? Highlighting the zeds' weak points for example, similar to Commando's capability to see their health at close-to-medium ranges?

>Level 15 is self-explanatory and makes perfect sense. Do you want a slowdown effect or stun power? Nothing left to say.

>Maybe I'm too bloodthirsty, but I'd say that "Rack'em Up" is just way more useful. As a sharp, your main goal is rather to deal with important targets as fast as possible... Not really to debuff them, a lot of perks can do it somehow (SWAT for example, and the firebug, zerk and medic can also do it in some other form). I know that the SS already has more than average capabilities with his cryo grenades and natural stun power. But I would say that it's kinda overkill at that point, even more so with Ballistic Shock. I'd just say that having as much as 135% extra damage feels better than stunning zeds like there's no tomorrow. But then I won't lie... "Rack em Up" is a fantastic skill on its own. It's veeeery hard to think about something that could rival it.

>Slight change to Assassin, with slightly less damage but faster RoF... I dig it. Again, similarly to the level 20 perks, I know I would go straight for the damage boost rather than the stunning power...But maybe it's just me?

>All in all, I believe the perk would be way more fun to play as you're still limited in your movement (you ain't no gunslinger or zerk, that's for sure!) but you're less of a sitting duck. That's my main gripe with the perk, considering its guns are very fun. I stand my ground that the all-damage side of the perk would probably be waaay more efficient and less frustrating than the full-stun one... But I guess playing an hybrid is still possible ! After all, you can only get so much damage before it becames ridiculous... Except against bosses, that is. Plus, it's understandable that you don't want to make the perk too one-dimensional. Even if, as I said in another topic, you can already switch your playstyle depending on the weapons you pick.

So yeah, despite my criticism, I have to say that it's still way more fun that what we currently have... more thoughtful too.

 

[Breadsticks_]

Just like the other, let's have a closer look !

>The passives are decent, I think the best addition is the increased reload speed. I actually don't truly get why nearly every perk got that as a skill... That's just too valuable to pass up. I believe the only perk that gets a skip is the Commando (having extra ammo is just too fun). Plus it would make sense if everyone could reload THEIR OWN WEAPONS faster. That would also insist of the fact that the survivalist can use everything, but with less efficiency (as in : he reloads slower). Zed-time reload is also great and makes even more sense than the Commando's, since the SS is so reliant on zed-time to bring the pain. I believe I NEVER use night-vision, even on dark maps, but it doesn't hurt to have it.

>Focus is better by a thousand miles than the current "Sniper". Yeah sure, it does feel a bit similar to Gunslinger's "Steady", but it does fit the perk immensely. I dooo think it's slightly less specific than Marksman (which I'd probably use with guns with larger mags), but both seems to have their use.

>Death From Afar is so clever that I'm truly wondering how and why nobody thought of that before ! It just flows so naturally with what the sharp is supposed to do, and instead of crouching for half the game, one might even try to outrun a zed just to get a mere 10% damage boost. 50% is quite a generous buff for a perk that already deals plenty of damage...But at the same time, it needs you to have a keen eye and react just as fast. I love it. By comparison, "Always prepared" sounds quite boring... Helpful sure, but boring. Maybe it could have a little something extra? Highlighting the zeds' weak points for example, similar to Commando's capability to see their health at close-to-medium ranges?

>Level 15 is self-explanatory and makes perfect sense. Do you want a slowdown effect or stun power? Nothing left to say.

>Maybe I'm too bloodthirsty, but I'd say that "Rack'em Up" is just way more useful. As a sharp, your main goal is rather to deal with important targets as fast as possible... Not really to debuff them, a lot of perks can do it somehow (SWAT for example, and the firebug, zerk and medic can also do it in some other form). I know that the SS already has more than average capabilities with his cryo grenades and natural stun power. But I would say that it's kinda overkill at that point, even more so with Ballistic Shock. I'd just say that having as much as 135% extra damage feels better than stunning zeds like there's no tomorrow. But then I won't lie... "Rack em Up" is a fantastic skill on its own. It's veeeery hard to think about something that could rival it.

>Slight change to Assassin, with slightly less damage but faster RoF... I dig it. Again, similarly to the level 20 perks, I know I would go straight for the damage boost rather than the stunning power...But maybe it's just me?

>All in all, I believe the perk would be way more fun to play as you're still limited in your movement (you ain't no gunslinger or zerk, that's for sure!) but you're less of a sitting duck. That's my main gripe with the perk, considering its guns are very fun. I stand my ground that the all-damage side of the perk would probably be waaay more efficient and less frustrating than the full-stun one... But I guess playing an hybrid is still possible ! After all, you can only get so much damage before it becames ridiculous... Except against bosses, that is. Plus, it's understandable that you don't want to make the perk too one-dimensional. Even if, as I said in another topic, you can already switch your playstyle depending on the weapons you pick.

So yeah, despite my criticism, I have to say that it's still way more fun that what we currently have... more thoughtful too.

Thanks for the response on this one aswell, greatly appreciate the feedback!

I do wanna know who actually uses Night Vision unironically when the map isn't just pitch black on some fan-made map. But I think it is nice to look at a full 6 passive slots on a perk like Commando. I didn't know what to do with the reload speed, it feels like a necessity for most perks bar Firebug since we all live with just a flat speed increase on their reload instead of a new animation; putting it on a perk seemed like too much of a clutch for a perk that does struggle with survivability and a consistent damage output, especially considering a lot of the weapons take FOREVER to reload. I considered the flat reload speed increase like the firebug, but I think I speak for everyone when I say a new animation that is faster than the standard one is far more satisfying, I think if I put it with a perk like Marksman or Always Prepared, it would be too strong to pass since like you said it is too valuable.

I still stand strongly that Focus sat alongside Marksman is gonna have a 50/50 pick-rate, because even with no damage buff a fire rate increase will deliver more DPS, the major difference being that the weapon you pick late game will help decide what perk you wanna use (Railgun for focus/FN FAL for Marksman).

The only reason why 50 metres=50% damage was set because not all the maps are gonna be huge and vast, and even then you won't really get your 100% efficiency with the skill as the pace of the game is very fast. But I did struggle with what to do with the other perk, Always Prepared was just a nice perk to have since the SS lacks on ammo as it is, plus a Sixth Freeze Grenade is too good to resist sometimes. I think the only other thing I would have gave it was extra movement speed or armour, but that does seem overkill and it might even be as fast as the GS if I'm not careful with it. I only say that because the only other idea I had for the right tree was to be a hit 'n run perk but that felt like a GS copout and a lame attempt at a diverse skillset.

I think with the previous comment about a diverse skillset, there's still gonna be a set build that is better than the others, but when exploring new horizons for loadouts it does add some nice flavour when you think that some weapons like the Mosin Nagant sit right in the middle of fast/strong, and some diversity in the skill tree can be rewarded, give the Nagant a nice damage buff but consider that it can't one shot FPs like the Railgun, so some Stun proc can make it a little better also.

One day I'll make enough of these and have enough people discuss them that they might make it out into the real world...

 

[Aleflippy]

Thanks for the response on this one aswell, greatly appreciate the feedback!

I do wanna know who actually uses Night Vision unironically when the map isn't just pitch black on some fan-made map. But I think it is nice to look at a full 6 passive slots on a perk like Commando. I didn't know what to do with the reload speed, it feels like a necessity for most perks bar Firebug since we all live with just a flat speed increase on their reload instead of a new animation; putting it on a perk seemed like too much of a clutch for a perk that does struggle with survivability and a consistent damage output, especially considering a lot of the weapons take FOREVER to reload. I considered the flat reload speed increase like the firebug, but I think I speak for everyone when I say a new animation that is faster than the standard one is far more satisfying, I think if I put it with a perk like Marksman or Always Prepared, it would be too strong to pass since like you said it is too valuable.

I still stand strongly that Focus sat alongside Marksman is gonna have a 50/50 pick-rate, because even with no damage buff a fire rate increase will deliver more DPS, the major difference being that the weapon you pick late game will help decide what perk you wanna use (Railgun for focus/FN FAL for Marksman).

The only reason why 50 metres=50% damage was set because not all the maps are gonna be huge and vast, and even then you won't really get your 100% efficiency with the skill as the pace of the game is very fast. But I did struggle with what to do with the other perk, Always Prepared was just a nice perk to have since the SS lacks on ammo as it is, plus a Sixth Freeze Grenade is too good to resist sometimes. I think the only other thing I would have gave it was extra movement speed or armour, but that does seem overkill and it might even be as fast as the GS if I'm not careful with it. I only say that because the only other idea I had for the right tree was to be a hit 'n run perk but that felt like a GS copout and a lame attempt at a diverse skillset.

I think with the previous comment about a diverse skillset, there's still gonna be a set build that is better than the others, but when exploring new horizons for loadouts it does add some nice flavour when you think that some weapons like the Mosin Nagant sit right in the middle of fast/strong, and some diversity in the skill tree can be rewarded, give the Nagant a nice damage buff but consider that it can't one shot FPs like the Railgun, so some Stun proc can make it a little better also.

One day I'll make enough of these and have enough people discuss them that they might make it out into the real world...

Well... I'm a strong advocate for passive reload speed increases on every perk. One might wonder why having "regular reloads" to begin with, and well... as I pointed out, it could be used both for the survivalist and for off-perk weaponry. So yeah, I can see why you decided to do it that way. And I fully agree.

That's only fair regarding both lvl 5 picks. I was truly speaking about my own tastes in my previous post : I tend to put everything around damage (and though you did mention the DPS, again : that's very true). And I believe the normal walking speed while ADS is what sells it for me.

Well, again, I can see why you thought that way (regarding level 10 skills). I personally rarely had trouble with my ammo as a sharp (except maybe for the heavier guns, but then I often use either a LAR or .500 as a sidearm, as I don't want to waste a Railgun or M99 bullet on a clot or crawler), but oh well. And as you mentioned, one extra grenade is not something you can refuse... I still believe that having, even 20-30% more damage is more valuable. But again, it depends on what you're using (do you really need a +50% damage M99 outside of boss fights?)

And yes, we can agree about fun being often better than being meta. As someone who plays a lot of fighting games, that's something I hear waaay too often ("that character is low-tier", "that character is not meta" ... well, as long as it is FUN, does it truly matter?). Plus, I believe we could also encourage mixing up the skill trees if we can...And if we want to. That's actually something I find a bit sad with the medic : you either go full buff-machine or battle medic. The extra problem being that going battle medic in a full-team is... kinda frowned upon. In a perfect world, you could pick any skill and still be good at your job. But hey, I guess it's always a matter of playstyle, personal preferences... and fun to have.

Thankfully, we only have ten skills... Imagine if we had to come up with 15-20. Even worse : if you had to choose in-between 3 or 4 choices at each tier!

 

[Breadsticks_]

And yes, we can agree about fun being often better than being meta. As someone who plays a lot of fighting games, that's something I hear waaay too often ("that character is low-tier", "that character is not meta" ... well, as long as it is FUN, does it truly matter?). Plus, I believe we could also encourage mixing up the skill trees if we can...And if we want to. That's actually something I find a bit sad with the medic : you either go full buff-machine or battle medic. The extra problem being that going battle medic in a full-team is... kinda frowned upon. In a perfect world, you could pick any skill and still be good at your job. But hey, I guess it's always a matter of playstyle, personal preferences... and fun to have.

Thankfully, we only have ten skills... Imagine if we had to come up with 15-20. Even worse : if you had to choose in-between 3 or 4 choices at each tier!

Yeah in my eyes, the only time I play the meta is when it is dumb fun, Killing Floor is a casual game at heart with some hardcore gun porn and gore. I don't care if the Stoner has the same damage as the AR15 per round, 160 rounds for about 10 seconds is more entertaining to me. I don't know about you but I've basically stopped using the armour skills for SWAT, I take the ADS skill at level 5 and with a good medic it actually works wonders alongside a g18

 

[Aleflippy]

Yeah in my eyes, the only time I play the meta is when it is dumb fun, Killing Floor is a casual game at heart with some hardcore gun porn and gore. I don't care if the Stoner has the same damage as the AR15 per round, 160 rounds for about 10 seconds is more entertaining to me. I don't know about you but I've basically stopped using the armour skills for SWAT, I take the ADS skill at level 5 and with a good medic it actually works wonders alongside a g18

It depends really, I often try to pick up the skills that are the most comfortable to me. As such, I tend to pick up the armor skills for the SWAT by merely when I spawn into a new game. Meta or not, having a full armor at the beginning of the game is quite helpful. So does the extra damage on the 9mm !

But yeah, sometimes I take both skills that increase my mag sizes as a Commando and I become a real bullet hose. Sometimes, when I'm playing with friends (or alone), I become a full-on hardcore medic, bumping up my damage output. Yet, honestly... The most "un-meta" things I do are related to my loadouts. I love to use underpowered or quirky weapons like the seal squeal, the winterbites, the vlad-9000, Mkb42... and try to make it work.

And in the end, whenever people start complaining about these guns, I'm often trying to defend them as much as I can... Simply because I often found a way to make them enjoyable !

The best being when you get both... The kaboomstick is a great example. The shrapnel skill for the firebug too. Having something that is meta AND fun is wonderful.

 

[Aze]

Alright, another rework thread!

PASSIVES:
* Zed-Time reload is very powerful, so it's nice. While it feels a bit "copy-paste", it could definitely work.
* Elite reloads as a passive could DEFINITELY work. It's an essential tool for the sharpie's main role, so wether it's a guarantee from talents (i.e. both talents at level X gives it along with other stuff) or as a passive, I'm all for it!
* Night Vision is rather gimmicky, but it's not harm done.

TALENTS:
First, I think highly inconsistent / conditional damageboosts (like Death from Afar and Focus) are kind of iffy for the pace of Killing Floor. So, have that in mind with my criticism.

* Focus - I like the utilities, but the damageboost being conditional is "eh" to me.
* Marksman - I actually think fire rate is one of the things that would fit perfectly as a passive on sharpshooter. Especially since it benefits some weapons greatly, while others far less. But that's maybe just me, heh.
* Death from Afar - Way too conditional and situational. The idea isn't BAD, but it's not great for this game. Also, the range is way too lengthy. Make that 10% per 5 meters instead and make it compete with another damage-talent to avoid meta-picks (like vs Rack 'em Up).
* Always Prepared - Aside from being money-reliant, it's fine. Some passive utlity here would be nice though.
* Skullcracker + Ballistic Shock - This tier is nice. Good competition.
* Rack 'em Up - Personally, I feel this talent doesn't fit for Sharpshooter, since it promotes spamshooting (i.e. M14+FAL setup).
* Pin 'em Down - Kind of worthless, to be honest. Not only does it compete with ReU, it's also a worse version of Ballistic Shock. Not too great, to be honest.
* Assassin - Sounds ok.
* Ranger - Needs something additional, I feel.

So, while I like the passives, the talents need a bit more work, imo.

 

[Breadsticks_]

Alright, another rework thread!

PASSIVES:
* Zed-Time reload is very powerful, so it's nice. While it feels a bit "copy-paste", it could definitely work.
* Elite reloads as a passive could DEFINITELY work. It's an essential tool for the sharpie's main role, so wether it's a guarantee from talents (i.e. both talents at level X gives it along with other stuff) or as a passive, I'm all for it!
* Night Vision is rather gimmicky, but it's not harm done.

TALENTS:
First, I think highly inconsistent / conditional damageboosts (like Death from Afar and Focus) are kind of iffy for the pace of Killing Floor. So, have that in mind with my criticism.

* Focus - I like the utilities, but the damageboost being conditional is "eh" to me.
* Marksman - I actually think fire rate is one of the things that would fit perfectly as a passive on sharpshooter. Especially since it benefits some weapons greatly, while others far less. But that's maybe just me, heh.
* Death from Afar - Way too conditional and situational. The idea isn't BAD, but it's not great for this game. Also, the range is way too lengthy. Make that 10% per 5 meters instead and make it compete with another damage-talent to avoid meta-picks (like vs Rack 'em Up).
* Always Prepared - Aside from being money-reliant, it's fine. Some passive utlity here would be nice though.
* Skullcracker + Ballistic Shock - This tier is nice. Good competition.
* Rack 'em Up - Personally, I feel this talent doesn't fit for Sharpshooter, since it promotes spamshooting (i.e. M14+FAL setup).
* Pin 'em Down - Kind of worthless, to be honest. Not only does it compete with ReU, it's also a worse version of Ballistic Shock. Not too great, to be honest.
* Assassin - Sounds ok.
* Ranger - Needs something additional, I feel.

So, while I like the passives, the talents need much more work, imo.

The general reasoning for a damage buff for Focus was purely on the basis that paying a little attention as to where you land your shots is given a little reward. It does feel a little lame yea, but then again this is only the level 5 skill and the main star of the skill is the recoil reduction and a better experience trying to aim.
In my opinion, I think a fire rate increase as a passive on a skill like sharpshooter does feel like wasted potential since the gun with the largest magazine in that arsenal has 20 rounds, so the increase in my eyes would seem very very slow. If anyone deserves it, its the SWAT (why didn't I put it in my rework damnit).
I had a bit of a hard time making Death from Afar since I don't really have the tools to get a perspective of how long/far two points are in a map, the main aim being that the idea is brought to light over the actual specifics of the idea.
If I were to give Always Prepared a set bonus beyond what is already there, it would definitely be movement speed increase.
I went for Rack 'em Up on the basis I didn't want to hand a damage buff on a platter like the level 20 commando skill. What skills the SS has doesn't really sit right with me either and upon reflection, I think the skill would most certainly have to relate itself to ADS like Deadeye (but a bit better than that)
And Pin 'em Down was just a brainstorm idea that I wanted to compete with Rack 'em Up, and it was the last skill I was trying to write up. If you have any better suggestions, I'd love to hear them.
I left Ranger as it is straight from the original tree since it "should" trigger with only one shot, that being where the value lies. Meaning when you leave Zed time you can pull some big headshot damage and/or have the party reign down hellfire on a boss or FP.

But thanks again for the comments and criticism, all greatly appreciated. I do think Pin 'em Down could be waay better but don't really know how to go about it, similarly to Rack 'em Up since we both want something that could work on any weapon, but overall I feel contempt with the rest of the skills without going into the specifics (especially Death from Afar, that could do with some real stat tweaking).

 

[Aleflippy]

Alright, another rework thread!

PASSIVES:
* Zed-Time reload is very powerful, so it's nice. While it feels a bit "copy-paste", it could definitely work.
* Elite reloads as a passive could DEFINITELY work. It's an essential tool for the sharpie's main role, so wether it's a guarantee from talents (i.e. both talents at level X gives it along with other stuff) or as a passive, I'm all for it!
* Night Vision is rather gimmicky, but it's not harm done.

TALENTS:
First, I think highly inconsistent / conditional damageboosts (like Death from Afar and Focus) are kind of iffy for the pace of Killing Floor. So, have that in mind with my criticism.

* Focus - I like the utilities, but the damageboost being conditional is "eh" to me.
* Marksman - I actually think fire rate is one of the things that would fit perfectly as a passive on sharpshooter. Especially since it benefits some weapons greatly, while others far less. But that's maybe just me, heh.
* Death from Afar - Way too conditional and situational. The idea isn't BAD, but it's not great for this game. Also, the range is way too lengthy. Make that 10% per 5 meters instead and make it compete with another damage-talent to avoid meta-picks (like vs Rack 'em Up).
* Always Prepared - Aside from being money-reliant, it's fine. Some passive utlity here would be nice though.
* Skullcracker + Ballistic Shock - This tier is nice. Good competition.
* Rack 'em Up - Personally, I feel this talent doesn't fit for Sharpshooter, since it promotes spamshooting (i.e. M14+FAL setup).
* Pin 'em Down - Kind of worthless, to be honest. Not only does it compete with ReU, it's also a worse version of Ballistic Shock. Not too great, to be honest.
* Assassin - Sounds ok.
* Ranger - Needs something additional, I feel.

So, while I like the passives, the talents need much more work, imo.

That's weird, because I think the exact opposite for the damage boosts... I love when you actually have to do a little something to benefit from it. It feels less cheap, less arbitrary. Now I know I was the one complaining about the current "sniper" perk, but it's because it actually "punish you" for trying to amp your damage. Here, yes it is conditional...But it actually rewards you for playing the perk AS YOU SHOULD. That's a slight, but important difference. Plus, it's 10% for his version of "Focus"... It's a nice thing to have, but I don't think it's the main appeal of the skill. I'd use it most for the ADS really.

Fire rate as a passive is something I didn't think about, but I guess it is true. But then... Perks also need to have weaknesses! And I think that having a slow-firing, harder-hitting perk is also a good thing (compared to the 'slinger trigger happy nature anyway). So I honestly don't know. I guess having a maximum of like "25% extra firing speed" (at level 25 obviously) wouldn't be too OP.

Again, we seem to be polar opposites because I LOVE the idea of Death From Afar ! Yeah it's totally conditional, but let's be real... Unless you got a clot in your face, you'll always have a slight damage boost. It's almost a guaranteed 20% to 30% extra damage at the very least. And I believe that the 50% should precisely be a very rare thing to achieve... Because that's quite a big chunk of damage considering the perk we're playing with ! I could even imagine a sound effect being played, similar to when you kill two enemies with a single Machina shot in Team Fortress 2. As for "meta picks"... I think that's the goal actually. You shouldn't have to scramble everything if you want to play a perk YOUR way. Want to go full damage? Bam, you can be a big mean killing machine. I believe it's one big weakness of the skill system to force you to play a certain way... Currently, I pretty much never change my classes anymore. I just found "the" meta loadout. That needs to change.

I follow you on "Always Prepared" as I said in my own post above. Considering the generous damage boost of "Death From Afar", I believe it should have something extra than more mags and one extra grenade.

Well... I join what I just said for "Rack'em up", it's okay for players to pick skills suited for their playstyle. Now it is true that you probably wouldn't pick "Rack'em up" with every gun... But I know that some people (like myself) prefer the middle-ranged marksman style rather than the pure Nuking gameplay for the sharpshooter. Of course it's mad fun to explode the head of a fleshpound with a M99 as soon as he spawns... But I much prefer going in the middle of the fight and pop some caps with my upgraded centerfire. Again, it's a matter of allowing people to enjoy the playstyle that caters to them most. But I do agree that with only ten skills... Having one so binary is a bit counterintuitive (then again, considering the perk got extra swap speed... Is it bad to encourage players to blast 2-3 trash zeds with a LAR/.500 only to take out the big Railgun and kill a Fleshpound with the three racked heads bonus?)

We do agree however on "Pin'em down". There's just so much stun power you need until it becomes redundant.

Ranger...yeah, I can see a little something more. Maybe something like "every headshot deals some damage to nearby zeds" or something? Or again, take inspiration from Team Fortress 2 => every zed killed by a headshot during zed-time will EXPLODE.

 

[Aze]

Ah, to clarify my critique some more (both for OP and Aleflippy):

While I don't like damagebuffs that are too conditional (some conditionals I'm totally fine with), I think my bigger issue probably lies in the fact that it's a damage-option vs a utility-option on the same tier. I feel the best way to remove meta-builds is to make each tier compete more similarly, i.e. it should be damage vs damage, or utility vs utility.

Also, fire rate as a passive makes the absolute most sense on Sharpshooter: He is the most skilled at using these lever-actions and bolt-actions and whatnot, and those you can increase rate of fire via skill (irl, i mean). Giving a RoF boost to SWAT however, means you're altering his guns mechanically - which feels more random and nonsensical to me.

And speaking of fire rate as a passive, in my own rework i also made the ammocomponent of Always Prepared a passive, as then you make sure that both hardhitting-wise and ammo-wise, the Sharpshooter is the stongest and "longeviest" at being Sharpshooter (back off Survivalist, hehe).

Death from Afar is actually growing on me, to be honest. Tweak the distances, sure, but other than that, I agreed that it could actually work well in the end.

Rack 'em Up however, I feel is too gunslingery for Sharpshooter. I had an almost opposite idea to replace that talent, called "Lay in Wait". It goes something like this:
"Increases ranged perk weapon damage done by 10% every second (20% bonus per second if aiming down sights), up to 50%. Shooting an enemy does not consume the damagebonus, but misses (not counting penetrations or shooting dead bodies) consume up to half of the max bonus."

I feel this would feel more Sharpshootery, as it allows for both heavyhitters and spamshooters to coexist more gracefully, and while it's more "punishing", it makes sure that you don't shoot willy nilly either.

As for Ranger vs Assassin, i feel Assassin could merge current Assassin and Ranger, while Ranger becomes a "shoot and reload X% faster during ZT" kind of talent. Basicly, power vs speed choice.

Pin 'em Down replacement, well, I'm just gonna go ahead show you my entire KF2 rework document (very WIP, very undone for the Demolitionist in particular):

Killing Floor 2 - Balancing attempts

Perk n Weapon rebalance General thoughts and goals: * All talent choices should be a matter of choice and playstyle, preferably - not about meta picks (even if there might be some of it, which is arguably inevitable to minor extents) * All talent choices should be useful in as many situations a...

docs.google.com

 

[Aleflippy]

Ah, to clarify my critique some more (both for OP and Aleflippy):

While I don't like damagebuffs that are too conditional (some conditionals I'm totally fine with), I think my bigger issue probably lies in the fact that it's a damage-option vs a utility-option on the same tier. I feel the best way to remove meta-builds is to make each tier compete more similarly, i.e. it should be damage vs damage, or utility vs utility.

Also, fire rate as a passive makes the absolute most sense on Sharpshooter: He is the most skilled at using these lever-actions and bolt-actions and whatnot, and those you can increase rate of fire via skill (irl, i mean). Giving a RoF boost to SWAT however, means you're altering his guns mechanically - which feels more random and nonsensical to me.

And speaking of fire rate as a passive, in my own rework i also made the ammocomponent of Always Prepared a passive, as then you make sure that both hardhitting-wise and ammo-wise, the Sharpshooter is the stongest and "longeviest" at being Sharpshooter (back off Survivalist, hehe).

Death from Afar is actually growing on me, to be honest. Tweak the distances, sure, but other than that, I agreed that it could actually work well in the end.

Rack 'em Up however, I feel is too gunslingery for Sharpshooter. I had an almost opposite idea to replace that talent, called "Lay in Wait". It goes something like this:
"Increases ranged perk weapon damage done by 10% every second (20% bonus per second if aiming down sights), up to 50%. Shooting an enemy does not consume the damagebonus, but misses (not counting penetrations or shooting dead bodies) consume up to half of the max bonus."

I feel this would feel more Sharpshootery, as it allows for both heavyhitters and spamshooters to coexist more gracefully, and while it's more "punishing", it makes sure that you don't shoot willy nilly either.

As for Ranger vs Assassin, i feel Assassin could merge current Assassin and Ranger, while Ranger becomes a "shoot and reload X% faster during ZT" kind of talent. Basicly, power vs speed choice.

Pin 'em Down replacement, well, I'm just gonna go ahead show you my entire KF2 rework document (very WIP, very undone for the Demolitionist in particular):

Killing Floor 2 - Balancing attempts

Perk n Weapon rebalance General thoughts and goals: * All talent choices should be a matter of choice and playstyle, preferably - not about meta picks (even if there might be some of it, which is arguably inevitable to minor extents) * All talent choices should be useful in as many situations a...

docs.google.com

For the similarity of skills, it's... Kind of hard to decide I think. Because I find your point just as valid as mine. It is true that choosing between which form of damage you want is more fair, and allow for a real dilemma in the player's mind. Yet, as I pointed out, I also believe that you shouldn't be forced into playing in a way you don't like... If you want to go full-damage, you should be able to do so. And in fact, by saying so, I realize that the problem may lie in the fact that the current system is probably overly simple, or at the very least : not really adapted. In a perfect world, every skill would be useful and every combo would work. But obviously, that's not the case. And I doubt anybody can pretend being able to come up with such a system. So yeah... Personally, I would love to be able to decide to go fully towards one path or the other... Or have a mix of two. But I do believe that your argument does stand.

I don't remember your take on sharpshooter (and I'm sorry ! It's quite probable that I read and even commented on it), but I do agree that having the extra ammo as a passive sounds good. I mean... I personally rarely pick the extra ammo skills because I tend to find them boring. But then, it means we need to find something else for OP's skill tree... He obviously can't have a skill that merely adds a grenade !

The issue I got with Lay in Wait is that it's pretty much the same as Sniper... You need to stand still to make good use of it. It's arguably even worse if you need to wait multiple seconds to get the full extent of the damage bonus! Either this or I didn't understood what you meant. I do understand what you mean by "feeling too gunslingery" about it though. But I'd argue that both are perks focused on being crackshots... So honestly, I don't really mind.

I tend to find "Power vs Speed" kinda bland as ZED-Time skills... Because it's the most by-the-books option. I mean yeah, it does work... But it's kinda the easy way out.

Thanks a million for your document though ! Didn't expect you to have done so much work. I know what I'm gonna read tonight (I should really get a hobby)

 

[Aze]

Yeah, i just find it a problem with the meta-crusaders always pushing you to go all out on damage. And on higher difficulties, i feel they are quite right, sadly. Which is why I don't want damage-vs-utility to be an option, as then you destroy meta-builds to a pretty big degree. I understand that not everyone wants that forced upon them (as you pointed out yourself), but I feel it's the healthiest option nontheless.

You did comment on my Sharpshooter rework in the past in some older thread, in a very positive light. But you might've changed your mind by now

Ah, Lay in Wait doesn't require you to be still whatsoever. It charges up completely passively, all the time (just faster when aiming down sights to give some agency in regards to the waiting time). So the waiting time is minimal, but it does prevent you from just shooting like a madman, rewarding you with full damage for connecting your shots.
Basicly, it's ReU in reverse, if you will: ReU goes up with good shots, goes down over time. LiW goes up with time, goes down with bad shots.

I hope you enjoy the read

 

[Aleflippy]

Yeah, i just find it a problem with the meta-crusaders always pushing you to go all out on damage. And on higher difficulties, i feel they are quite right, sadly. Which is why I don't want damage-vs-utility to be an option, as then you destroy meta-builds to a pretty big degree. I understand that not everyone wants that forced upon them (as you pointed out yourself), but I feel it's the healthiest option nontheless.

You did comment on my Sharpshooter rework in the past in some older thread, in a very positive light. But you might've changed your mind by now

Ah, Lay in Wait doesn't require you to be still whatsoever. It charges up completely passively, all the time (just faster when aiming down sights to give some agency in regards to the waiting time). So the waiting time is minimal, but it does prevent you from just shooting like a madman, rewarding you with full damage for connecting your shots.
Basicly, it's ReU in reverse, if you will: ReU goes up with good shots, goes down over time. LiW goes up with time, goes down with bad shots.

I hope you enjoy the read

Well... I tend to think that fun should always prevail above the meta (and that's coming from someone who used to play fighting games competitively !) One obviously shouldn't be a nuisance to the team he's playing with... nor should he go full-meta and be bored doing so. It's always a mix of both, if possible. But yeah, I can see how annoying it can be if the meta-pick is each and every time "go full damage". Personally, it's really not that much about the meta as it is about me, enjoying the thought of melting big zeds as they spawn. But yes... Maybe I would think otherwise if the perk on the other side was different. I can't argue with that logic. And I can't argue either that if a perk is always taken while the other is not... Then some rebalancing should be done. But I doubt we can ever reach that perfect 50-50. Oh well... Beggars can't be choosers, and it's always easier to criticize than to do it yourself.

I honestly don't remember, so I don't know ! If your spreadsheet is any indication, I believe I would like it on a broader scale (it's always better to look at a perk as a whole rather than to take each passive and skill separately), I'll still take a closer look ASAP (I currently only looked at your ideas for the Urban Ninja, as well as your reworks for the 'slinger... I was wondering what you had in mind for a perk that I find nearly perfect, safe maybe for some versatility in its weaponry !)

Oh I see, I guess the inner penalty of Lay in Wait is that in panic situations, you pretty much CANNOT get that juicy damage boost because you obviously have to retaliate quickly... And because you may need to pierce the skulls of multiple zeds in quick succession. I can see how it's the exact opposite of Rack Em Up, and I actually find the idea quite clever ! Indeed, because I thought of the lookout that it was free damage, and quite a huge bonus with that. But on harder difficulties, against a mob of zeds? Good luck making use of that one... You could probably steamroll legions of zeds on normal and hard since zeds are waaay easier to kite forever, but what fun is there playing on such difficulties past level 10?

Nevermind though, I just re-read it and noticed that the bonus went out with bad shots rather than after "consuming" the bonus (so either with a successful or missed shot). I do have to say I'm a bit more cautious with that... I guess someone with a snappy aim could really cheese the game by keeping the bonus seemingly forever. Wouldn't it be better to force you to wait for it to come up (but unlike Sniper : you generate the bonus passively) then it gets consumed whenever you're firing? I guess one could always sprint like an idiot to farm the boost... But I would still find it less abusive as mowing down zeds upon zeds by farming the boost. I mean, I ain't even a very good shooter, and yet I rarely miss in Killing Floor : zeds often group up together and they are often close to you. So really... I feel like that bonus would pretty much never go away.

Maybe we could cut it in half and basically make it so that whenever you shoot, you consume something like... one third or one half of the boost (so you don't have to build it all the way up again), but if you miss... You lose all of it? Just throwing that in the ring basically.

 

[Aze]

Well... I tend to think that fun should always prevail above the meta (and that's coming from someone who used to play fighting games competitively !) One obviously shouldn't be a nuisance to the team he's playing with... nor should he go full-meta and be bored doing so. It's always a mix of both, if possible. But yeah, I can see how annoying it can be if the meta-pick is each and every time "go full damage". Personally, it's really not that much about the meta as it is about me, enjoying the thought of melting big zeds as they spawn. But yes... Maybe I would think otherwise if the perk on the other side was different. I can't argue with that logic. And I can't argue either that if a perk is always taken while the other is not... Then some rebalancing should be done. But I doubt we can ever reach that perfect 50-50. Oh well... Beggars can't be choosers, and it's always easier to criticize than to do it yourself.

I honestly don't remember, so I don't know ! If your spreadsheet is any indication, I believe I would like it on a broader scale (it's always better to look at a perk as a whole rather than to take each passive and skill separately), I'll still take a closer look ASAP (I currently only looked at your ideas for the Urban Ninja, as well as your reworks for the 'slinger... I was wondering what you had in mind for a perk that I find nearly perfect, safe maybe for some versatility in its weaponry !)

Oh I see, I guess the inner penalty of Lay in Wait is that in panic situations, you pretty much CANNOT get that juicy damage boost because you obviously have to retaliate quickly... And because you may need to pierce the skulls of multiple zeds in quick succession. I can see how it's the exact opposite of Rack Em Up, and I actually find the idea quite clever ! Indeed, because I thought of the lookout that it was free damage, and quite a huge bonus with that. But on harder difficulties, against a mob of zeds? Good luck making use of that one... You could probably steamroll legions of zeds on normal and hard since zeds are waaay easier to kite forever, but what fun is there playing on such difficulties past level 10?

Nevermind though, I just re-read it and noticed that the bonus went out with bad shots rather than after "consuming" the bonus (so either with a successful or missed shot). I do have to say I'm a bit more cautious with that... I guess someone with a snappy aim could really cheese the game by keeping the bonus seemingly forever. Wouldn't it be better to force you to wait for it to come up (but unlike Sniper : you generate the bonus passively) then it gets consumed whenever you're firing? I guess one could always sprint like an idiot to farm the boost... But I would still find it less abusive as mowing down zeds upon zeds by farming the boost. I mean, I ain't even a very good shooter, and yet I rarely miss in Killing Floor : zeds often group up together and they are often close to you. So really... I feel like that bonus would pretty much never go away.

Maybe we could cut it in half and basically make it so that whenever you shoot, you consume something like... one third or one half of the boost (so you don't have to build it all the way up again), but if you miss... You lose all of it? Just throwing that in the ring basically.

Speaking of fun; that is exactly why I want to "de-meta" everything by making every tier either be damage vs damage, and utility vs utility on each tier (in fact, I've tried to avoid damage-choices as much as possible, baking it into the passives where it might fit, and making the choices far more about utility). While to some they think that makes for a stale experience, I think that will do exactly the opposite of that: Because when there's less of a meta (i.e. damage vs utility = damage is meta) It means that you can pick whatever you want! Sure, a meta can't be avoided 100%, but I'll be damned if I don't wanna try my best to make it as close to 100% as possible!
Hell, I've even started to revise my rework document to make all (except on Survivalist, it's a special case) of the ammo-talents into passives. Because even max ammo can be considered pseudometa (since it boosts your total potential damage output per wave).
But one thing I particularly wanna point out of what you said: ".. it's always easier to criticize than to do it yourself." You're certainly right about that. Which is why I don't just give critique, but I put a huge effort into trying to fix it myself too.

No worries, there's a lot of discussion going on (not just here, I delve into multiple game forums myself), so I understand if you can't remember!

About 'slinger, what do you think? As you can see, it's rather small changes overall (mostly to the less picked options) - and I still feel I'm not done polishing. For example: One idea was to revamp Bone Breaker into being a lesser damage perk, but add Line 'em Up's penetration bonus to it. That way, you choose either amping your single-target killing, or up your multi-target killing, while Speedloader gets a different competition in the form of a "reload weapons when they're holstered" option (similar to Breadstick's Bandolier for SWAT). Problem with that though is that ReU is still likely gonna remain the meta-choice, so... yeah, lots to think through!

I first applied a lesser bonus loss on successful shots for Lay in Wait when I made the talent, but then I realized that it would heavily penalize the fastfiting guns (FAL and M14, in particular - making it have the opposite problem of Rack 'em Up). So that's why I made it the way it is right now. But, you made me think about that more now, and yes, it needs some other way to drain the bonus too - but I don't think it should be related to connecting shots. So how about this: On top of how it works right now, how about losing, say, 5% of the bonus for every second spent sprinting or an immediate 5% loss when jumping? That way, it fits with its name (Sprinting and jumping doesn't exactly exude laying in wait, hehe), but still allows for some movement (like jogging and crouchwalking). What do you think about that?

 

[Aleflippy]

Speaking of fun; that is exactly why I want to "de-meta" everything by making every tier either be damage vs damage, and utility vs utility on each tier (in fact, I've tried to avoid damage-choices as much as possible, baking it into the passives where it might fit, and making the choices far more about utility). While to some they think that makes for a stale experience, I think that will do exactly the opposite of that: Because when there's less of a meta (i.e. damage vs utility = damage is meta) It means that you can pick whatever you want! Sure, a meta can't be avoided 100%, but I'll be damned if I don't wanna try my best to make it as close to 100% as possible!
Hell, I've even started to revise my rework document to make all (except on Survivalist, it's a special case) of the ammo-talents into passives. Because even max ammo can be considered pseudometa (since it boosts your total potential damage output per wave).
But one thing I particularly wanna point out of what you said: ".. it's always easier to criticize than to do it yourself." You're certainly right about that. Which is why I don't just give critique, but I put a huge effort into trying to fix it myself too.

No worries, there's a lot of discussion going on (not just here, I delve into multiple game forums myself), so I understand if you can't remember!

About 'slinger, what do you think? As you can see, it's rather small changes overall (mostly to the less picked options) - and I still feel I'm not done polishing. For example: One idea was to revamp Bone Breaker into being a lesser damage perk, but add Line 'em Up's penetration bonus to it. That way, you choose either amping your single-target killing, or up your multi-target killing, while Speedloader gets a different competition in the form of a "reload weapons when they're holstered" option (similar to Breadstick's Bandolier for SWAT). Problem with that though is that ReU is still likely gonna remain the meta-choice, so... yeah, lots to think through!

I first applied a lesser bonus loss on successful shots for Lay in Wait when I made the talent, but then I realized that it would heavily penalize the fastfiting guns (FAL and M14, in particular - making it have the opposite problem of Rack 'em Up). So that's why I made it the way it is right now. But, you made me think about that more now, and yes, it needs some other way to drain the bonus too - but I don't think it should be related to connecting shots. So how about this: On top of how it works right now, how about losing, say, 5% of the bonus for every second spent sprinting or an immediate 5% loss when jumping? That way, it fits with its name (Sprinting and jumping doesn't exactly exude laying in wait, hehe), but still allows for some movement (like jogging and crouchwalking). What do you think about that?

And that's a mighty fine objective ! Even if I did say that increasing your damage output indirectly is totally okay for me (I REALLY do love my Shrapnel!) I don't really feel like commenting any further on that specific point : you said it best... Well no, I'll just clarify that I was mostly talking about myself when saying "it's always easier to criticize..." ! I often manage to point out the flaws in others' ideas, without actually bringing forward other solutions myself (AKA : the worst kind of critic !)

I concur... I'm not that big into forums anymore, but I lurk in many comment sections and many groups. It definitely helps that I'm not playing as many games as I used to, but I'm very invested in the few I'm still playing. They can be real time-sinkers (plus yeah, I got a lot of other activities and things to worry about IRL, I guess everyone can relate)

I do like the overall changes you did to the Gunslinger. They are mild, as expected, and I think that's the best way to do it. If I can name quite a handful of perks in need of proper reworks (medic, surv and sharp come to mind), some others are definitely fine as they are (support and gunslinger, for example). As you put it : those are small changes that would make the perk better. As for Bone Breaker... I also thought it was pretty much a "lazy skill". Like... You trade-off the more damaging bonus of Rack'em Up for a boost that's easier to get. It's okay for the trigger-happy Gunslinger, but anyone who played the game for a little while will know that REU is just better. Not only does it forces you to do headshots (something you should be doing as a gunslinger), but it rewards you for doing so. It's just like "Parry" for zerk... It's a skill that totally leans you towards the perk's... perks.


That's my main gripe with Bone Breaker really. If it had a little something more, I feel it would be picked up more often. Well... That and the fact it's just a flat damage boost, but I know you like these !

I get your issue for Lay in Wait, and honestly... It's mostly a problem linked to the perk itself than your idea (or Breadsticks' for that matter). But that's the deal...The sharp got both high-damage, single-shot weapons... And semi-auto, more "spammy" options. And as such, I feel like many skills would cater most to one type of weapon or the other. Basically : you can never win ! As the problem still stands for your idea of Lay in Wait, and gets even worse with such a fast-firing weapon : you could pretty much fire off 20 bullets in quick succession with 50% extra damage. Quite a lot really, even if the recoil does imply that you need to fire single shots in rapid-succession rather than going all out. Losing 5% with every jump or second spent sprinting would balance it a little bit, but I doubt it would solve the problem at its core.

It's really the whole arsenal of the perk that's problematic regarding skills ! They allow for vastly different playstyles.