Sharpshooter overpopulation

DocDave · Dec 23, 2009

-[SiN]-bswearer said:
if you would have quoted the rest of that section, you would have posted my explaination.

Heh. This?

-[SiN]-bswearer said:
the fact that it's only a small group of individuals that have been whining about certain aspects of the game indicates to me that the overwhelming majority of people would agree with most of what people like me have been saying.

Nice job "explaining" how you know what all those unknown players who don't come here think... Anyone with even the slightest grasp of statistics can tell you have no idea what you're talking about. A large portion of a small sample is still indicative of the majority.

-[SiN]-bswearer said:
actually, Yoshiro stated that TW understands that "some tier3" (notice not "the" and not "new") weapons are overpowered. and "borked"...need i say anymore about that word choice?

With the pedantry again. By far most of the complaints are in fact about the SS/M14. Yes, that is what is borked. Whine about word choice more.

DocDave said:
If you don't understand that the foundation of a perk is the perk's weapons, there's no point discussing this with you at all, case closed. +50% damage means nothing outside of the context of the weapon it is intrinsically linked to.

-[SiN]-bswearer said:
Not exactly true.

Actually, it is exactly true. The damage of a perk is "base"-d upon the "base" damage of the weapon it is founded upon. What's 300% bonus damage of 0 damage? 300% bonus of 1,000 damage? The foundation of a perk is it's weapons.

pedantic....i'm glad you've expanded your vocabulary. my style may be somewhat "formal" and "narrow" as the word implies, although it is typically also very "precise" and backed with valid support.

I'm not convinced you grasp what could "support" an argument, Mr Psychic Statistics/Video Proof.

Pedantic: unimaginative, pedestrian, overly concerned with minute details. (Such as "lolz omg we don't need teh nerfed cuz M14 is technically not really SS")

Btw:

-[SiN]-bswearer said:
"some tier3" (notice not "the" and not "new") weapons are overpowered

Tier 3 weapons are new weapons.

Nanostrike · Dec 23, 2009

outofrealman said:
Weapons of SS NEEDS a way to be accurate. So I dont think 9mm and hcs should be in the SS class in the first place. And the laser sight is fine with M14. Decrease body shot damage and increase head shot bonus of SS class is the way to balance it. Most small zeds still one-shot kill with M14, but the dont die if you miss the head. If you spam bullets in their body, you empty one mag quickly but most of them still standing. Force SSs to aim for the head is the way to make it better.

That wouldn't fix the M14 one bit, though, as most Sharpies just turn on the laser sight, aim at head-level, and blast away. They're usually at very close range, where it's quite literally hard to miss the head.

Despite what people say, I'll be the first to admit that the average sharpshooter can pull off headshots very consistantly with the M-14, ESPECIALLY when they're at almost-point-blank range and have a crosshair called a "Laser sight" to use.

Reise said:
No no no. Being able to do this with a crossbow is 100% necessary and should not be changed. Picking off the big baddies is what makes Sharpshooter useful in the first place.

What needs to be changed is the conditions that pull players away from that helpful action. The conditions that make people empty M14 mags into an FP rather than take his bleeding head off with a crossbow.

Accomplish that, and you'll find a much more "balanced" class.

That's just not the way it balances with the current weaponry, really. If you have merely a Crossbow and the stock 9mm...you can use the Crossbow for the big stuff, while relying on the 9mm to kill any of the smaller crap up to and including Gorefasts, and still carry a Handcannon for intermediate enemies like Husks and Sirens. It's an all-arounder with no weaknesses.

40 crossbow shots for big enemies
96 Handcannon shots for medium enemies
240 9mm shots for smaller enemies.

Even Crossbow sharpies are still able to be all-arounders better than most other classes. And at a significantly cheaper cost. At Level 6, you SPAWN with your $400 Crossbow (Which only costs $100 to fully reload if you sell/rebuy) and your 9mm. And the Handcannon only costs ~$200! You can get fully equipped, minus some ammo, with the spawning cash on Hard... No other class has it that easy, save for maybe Zerker.

Assuming all classes are using some of their spawn-with gear at Level 6, compare with Commando, which requires $750 to get it's almost-required SCAR, Support that takes $1200 to get it's AA12, and demo, which takes $750 for the M32 and another $240 for a load of pipes. Plus ammo for all those classes... And they STILL can't do all-around work like the Sharpie can.

I'm not the expert on fixing balance. I leave that to the professionals at Tripwire, but I can definitely see where the problems are without even looking all that deep at it. There's a reason that almost all sucessful Suicidal games have AT LEAST 3 or 4 Sharpshooters, if not more.

Shambler · Dec 23, 2009

I miss suicidal being impossible.

Evalora · Dec 23, 2009

Shambler said:
I miss suicidal being impossible.

Maybe time for a 5th difficulty: Insane?

MasterCheff · Dec 23, 2009

Evalora said:
Maybe time for a 5th difficulty: Insane?

nah it should be called pandoras box sounds cooler in my opinion

Shambler · Dec 23, 2009

No, they just need to make it harder in general, you can't keep buffing the players without buffing the monsters too... Unless making the game easier was the desired affect.

When the game was new, beating all the waves and then the patty was really a awesome accomplishment. very often ( in my experience at least) you would get wiped over and over again. Now winning is the norm and beating the patty is a joke most of the time. The satisfaction is GONE!

izak · Dec 23, 2009

I wish the would lower the m14 ammo and make a harder difficulty level above suicidal. It would be ideal if the new difficulty level had a new zed that upped the change. the kind of zed that was only available on this new difficulty level.

that would kick ***.

Madhate969 · Dec 23, 2009

That would be cool, and the new zed could be a monkey, either a fast poo flinging chimp, or a gorilla (like a short fleshpound, or a young bull)

nath2009uk · Dec 23, 2009

Madhate969 said:
fast poo flinging chimp

LOLWUT?!

Nanostrikes post above speaks the truth.

-[SiN]-bswearer · Dec 23, 2009

i'm not a "SS lover/abuser" as nano has so nicely pointed me as, but i'm simply a guy with no bias and the ability to analyze the game as a whole. look at my perk levels and notice i have them all maxed

. also to note, my zerker progress bar is filled out twice as far as my SS progress bar because i played alot as a zerker in the early days cause i happened to like the chainsaw before it got nerfed, then the addition of the katana for 15 year olds to spam with. on the flip side, most of the people who decided to b!tch about one perk specifically are the "lover/abusers" that nano has termed. thus their input not being taken seriously because they are coming from a biased standpoint.

some (not singling any individual out) of you should get it through you arrogant heads that people such as myself are actually looking at the issue from an unbiased perspective, you're never going to get anywhere.

Level 3:
- 20% more damage with 9mm, Handcannon, Rifle, Crossbow and M14
- 75% less recoil with 9mm, Handcannon, Rifle, Crossbow and M14
- 30% faster reload with 9mm, Handcannon, Rifle, Crossbow and M14
- 30% extra headshot damage
- 40% discount on Handcannon/M14
Requirements:
Get 700 headshot kills with 9mm, Handcannon, Rifle, Crossbow or EBRM14

+

[TW]schneidzekk said:
And here comes the changelog:

Implemented new Headshot system that improves headshot detection in network games. Additionally this system fixes Insta-Kill Decap on Fleshpound when attacking up close, and fixes the headshot detection issues on the Scrake.

+

Clot Only Mutator

=

This, This and This

but we still have this:

[URL="http://store.steampowered.com/stats"][URL="http://store.steampowered.com/stats"][URL="http://store.steampowered.com/stats"][URL]http://store.steampowered.com/stats[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

Current Peak Game

1,967 2,703 Killing Floor

peak more than doubled from the sub 1000 it had 2 months ago

/THREAD

Ruckus · Dec 24, 2009

@Nanostrike: I agree the M14 has a free crosshair and a laser sight is pathetic in this game for SS perk.

A sharpshooter will always seem unbalanced in comparison to other perks, one shot to the head, one kill. But remember can't gimp a player so much. It's not that 9mm and HC is so awesome, I'm sure like other SS, I would use the Winchester. But I am always in a situation with waves of 20 constantly and the amount of time it takes to reload a Winchester is enough time to die many times.

I see no reason why a SS couldn't 1 shot a common specimen to the head. And for Scrakes and FPs with Crossbow, that's the purpose of a SS.

DocDave · Dec 24, 2009

Improved network game headshot detection, really? How many people play on a network, as opposed to playing over the internet, or alone on your own server? Dunno about you, but I never had trouble getting headshots on clots, before or after that update.

SS isn't so common because it's "easy" to level. It's common because it's overpowered. People prefer perks that work better to ones that don't, and overpowered perks work better. That's something everyone agrees on. That's why SS is everywhere. That's why every other suicidal game seems to be 3 SS, 2 Commando and 1 Medic.

Btw,

peak more than doubled from the sub 1000 it had 2 months ago
/THREAD

I'm sure I'll be sorry I asked this, but in your mind, what does the number of total players have to do with anything in this thread? I'm predicting my reply will be in the form of a WoW-analogy...

DocDave · Dec 24, 2009

-[SiN]-bswearer said:
i'm not a "SS lover/abuser" as nano has so nicely pointed me as, but i'm simply a guy with no bias and the ability to analyze the game as a whole.

My impression is exactly as nano says. I don't think I've seen you ever bring a single relevant argument showing SS is balanced to the table, instead focusing on trivial things which have absolutely no bearing on the issue. It is clear you are strongly biased. A huge portion of the forum-goers have been stating there is a problem for quite some time now, and TWI has confirmed it.

You're simply grasping for straws because you are afraid your favorite perk will get fixed in the process of making the game balanced and more fun for everyone to play with all perks. I find it interesting that most of the few people who protest in favor of the SS have also shown SS is their favorite perk. On the other hand, even some people who have said SS is their favorite perk admitted it's clearly broken.

-[SiN]-bswearer · Dec 24, 2009

mod can delete. i should not have posted my quote from billy madison as it appears to have offended somebody.

-[SiN]-bswearer · Dec 27, 2009

(EDIT: apparently the post was taken care of)

i played three straight maps of wyre on suicidal tonight and this is what i found.

the first time i got in, it was right on the Patty and apparently it was the 3rd time in a row that 4 of these guys had already tried to beat the map. i died pretty fast because all i had was a level6 support with a hunting shotgun and armour. i watched in spec as 4 level5 and 6 SSs with EBRs attempted to "rape" the patty which apparently is so easy to do......they lasted about 40 seconds after i died and he didn't have to heal once.

the second time i suggested to the 4 SS that they try a crossbow or use another class and other weapons, but they ignored me and the result was the same....although he healed once because i got a full mag from an AA12 on him and my friend got 2 headshots on him with a crossbow as a level6 SS.....too bad we both got taken out by one rocket after he healed.

for the third wave 2 of the sharpshooters were still in and we got two guys that had decent leveled medics. we had a plan and everyone listened......this is what happened: (to note: the guy recording the vid was one of the SS with EBRs in the previous failures and we got him to switch to support)

YouTube - Killing Floor Suicidal Gameplay: Wyre, Long, Wave 11/10. Patriach gets straight rushed

i would have recorded their previous failings with their EBRs but i didn't think about it at the time. luckily, this guy recorded that final try and was so happy we won that he added me as a friend and sent me the link. i believe i stated that i've been on a team that took him out all using AA12s in the past and somebody said i should have proof of this cause they didn't believe me. this is the best i've got since i've not been able to assemble a team of 6 to do it.....notice it only took 3 of the 5 players to go support and the medic strat is money every time.

the claims against my "equation" are too rediculous for me to go through refuting all of them, hence my billy madison quote, but there is one thing i can easily address. the statement i made about the "headshot fix" and it's impact on the overpopulation and unbalanced nature of the EBR.........if the hitboxes were still off centered (meaning near impossible to even get headshots), how much damage would the EBR spam do since the shots would not actually be recorded as hitting the heads? remember the headshot bonus is where all the damage comes from. how effective would the Crossbow be now if the hitboxes were not centered? hardly any SS would be taking out FP and Scrakes, let alone sirens/gorefasts/husks in one shot. because of the fix, the crossbow and EBR (on top of the 9mm/handcannon) are as powerful as they are because SS are maximizing that extra headshot damage. so, for anyone to say that portion of my "equation" is incorrect is just absurd.

Nanostrike · Dec 27, 2009

DocDave said:
Improved network game headshot detection, really? How many people play on a network, as opposed to playing over the internet, or alone on your own server? Dunno about you, but I never had trouble getting headshots on clots, before or after that update.

To clarify: Headshots used to work fine on LAN games and Listen Server games, but not in Dedicated server games. I myself was a HUGE advocate in getting this fixed. We used to have to aim a full foot to the right of a Scrake's head to score a headshot.

Sharpshooter became MUCH more effective overall and much easier to level because that headshot fix came at the same time they popped in the 9mm as a Sharpshooter weapon. So everyone immediately began leveling Sharpshooter without even trying. And those that did try would discover that they can take down anything.

Basically, headshots work exactly as Tripwire originally planned. What they didn't plan on, I think, was that most Sharpshooters can EASILY nail the headshots about 90% of the time and that the huge damage of said headshots drops almost every specimen in the game in short order. At Level 5, with just the 9mm, you can kill everything up to and including Gorefasts in a single shot.

Right now, if you can hit the headshots, especially with the M-14, then the reload speed, low recoil, and massive damage bonuses allow Sharpshooter to outdamage almost every other class, even in idea circiumstances (IE: A Sharpshooter firing the M-14 at head height into a crowd will get more kills at a faster rate and from a safer distance than a Firebug or Demo). Thus the class needs attention.

There's really nothing more to discuss here. I made a topic about how Sharpshooter was being overpopulated in most servers and offered a few opinions of why. Then it turned into an absolute flamewar of a topic; something I never intended. I'd expect this stuff on the Steam forums, but not here. Both major sides are going too far in their arguments here.

-[SiN]-bswearer may come off as a Sharpshooter fanboy, but he's just concerned (And with good reason: just take a look at Berserker) that if people go complaining about a class a lot on forums, TWI might go overboard with the nerfage and make it a gimped class. And Doc comes across as a rabid sharpshooter-hater, but he's only concerned that a glaring imbalance won't be taken care of properly (And with good reason as well: folks have been saying Sharpshooter is the most powerful class since the headshot fix, but nothing's been done). Both have rational points.

But TWI has said specifically that they're gonna look into it. And that's good enough for me. If you guys wanna have more rational discussion in here with a bit cooler tempers, that's fine. But otherwise, mods, feel free to close this topic. I feel that by TWI acknowledging that they need to address the balance, I've achieved all I need to with this topic.

-[SiN]-bswearer · Dec 27, 2009

i remember those over the shoulder shots on scrakes way back when......sure it was more challenging, but it was a pain and annoying as hell to have off-centered hitboxes!!!!

the headshot fix was the best thing to ever happen to the SS. it's just now there needs to be some tweeking to better improve the perk since a key component of the perk has been fixed. i think we can all hope that TW has been able to learn from past balancing attempts and that everything will turn out fine.

Bastard · Dec 30, 2009

I find that most of the posts ignore the relevance position. Suicide can be easy with high lvl coordinated teams. Suicide is nigh impossible with 2-3 random griever on pubs. That being said when the last level patch came out I already had 4 of 6 lvl 6 perks, some of us play a lot and hence fail sometimes to put things into perspective. A avg player and I don't mean skill, I mean play time and lvl will find suicide pretty much just that.

If one looks at the achievement stats there are very few people capable of beating a suicide map, should that very small minority be the major shaping force behind development, maybe some, mechanics bugs and what not but I don't really think the few are the best judges of general game play as they far removed for the general side of things.

As to the OP, now I see very few EBR heavy teams, it doesn't work that well IMO and I have played with Nano a few times of late and I don't recall an EBR in any of those games.

I don't think the EBR is a good SS weapon as others have stated, then again I don't think the game allows true SS behavior anyway, they provide over-watch and are rarely co-located with assault forces, so the debate is mute IMO as really there are some things that just need to be in order to make the game work.

Regards

Bastard

Mr. Crow · Dec 30, 2009

I don't mean to step on anyone's toes and I'm not sure whither it has been suggested in this thread before me.

Couldn't Tripwire just remove the M14 and add in a bolt action rifle? They could essentially keep or slightly raise the damage the M14 does, lower the magazine size, reduce total number of mags, and stop run/gun game play? I'm pretty sure they chose the EBR variation of the M14 for it's cool factor (even if they added a solid stock where a collapsible should be) but there are a lot of cool looking bolt action guns out there. Like the new German made DSR-1 or one of the new Savage 10 BAS-K. Either of those would be fine replacements and stop the problems the M14 has with the Sharpshooter skill line.

The links lead off-site to pictures and details of the rifles I suggested. Both can be chambered for .300Win Mag for consistency.

Sharpshooter overpopulation

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