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Separate the commander and gunner roles

fatox

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 21, 2006
13
0
0
London
I would suggest separating the commander and gunner roles in tanks which have a three person turret. This would give a significant advantage to those who cooperate, with the commander spotting and directing fire. I know it will reduce the number of people on the field, but I think it would be worth it.

Any comments?
 

[CiA]Stiletto

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
845
1
0
For clan war purposes, it would fucking rock. Especially if the commander got a cupola MG (were those common at all back then?).

For pubbing...I dunno, might work.

There'd better be a hell of a reload speed bonus, though.
 

SiFi

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
458
0
0
I'd go for it if there was a one-click way for the commander to shout "Enemy at X o'clock!" And we got bigger servers ;)
 

Rrralphster

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 4, 2006
1,411
106
0
47
Nederland
Hmmm, doesn't feel right to me. It would mean you would need another person in the tank which decreases the effective team size again.
Now we have a few tanks with 3 people inside (16 - 3 =13 players left vs 16 - 4 = 12 players left). If you would have two of those tanks then there wouldn't be much infantry left to play. So it really depends on how such a thing would be implemented.
 
Rrralphster said:
Hmmm, doesn't feel right to me. It would mean you would need another person in the tank which decreases the effective team size again.
Now we have a few tanks with 3 people inside (16 - 3 =13 players left vs 16 - 4 = 12 players left). If you would have two of those tanks then there wouldn't be much infantry left to play. So it really depends on how such a thing would be implemented.
What do you mean "doesn't feel right to me"?

Does the Hull Mg pos feel right to you on most if not all of the tank maps we have right now? How about the very limited situational awareness when inside a tank, one doing the driving, one gunning and..oh, thats it.

Having a Commanders position would not take anything away from the game, it only adds to it. It might eventually actually lead people who continously run off with a tank on their own to NOT do that anymore, since their situational awareness as well as reaction time is far worse than that of a tank staffed w/ 2 (gunner, commander) or 3 (gunner, commander & driver).

If commander becomes available and people start using it, we might actually see more intense tank battles, maneuvering, hide&seek "games" and so forth as it was more often than not IRL. Give the Commander, if so equipped, access to the Winkelspiegel/Commanders periscope, the cupola view as it is now, one unbuttoned view just looking over the edges for minimal exposure reasons & able to use binocs then and the standard "ticker-tape parade"-style unbuttoned position as it is now, able to use binocs and Nahverteidigungswaffe (MP40 & equivalent if applicable). On account of the increased situational awareness and the ability to put up some sort of close quarters self defense, coupled with a delay when entering & exiting vehicles, this will also sort of eleminate the now all too common tactic of the BA-64 satchelrushers, for example.


ps. If I'm not making any sense, blame my gf...she f*cked up the coffeemaker this morning and as a result I'm suffering from severe caffeine withdrawal
 

KrazyKraut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
1,848
69
0
Beer capital of the world
I noticed on many maps it's wiser to man every tank with one single man (and put the rest in the PaK-/AT-rifle-/Sapper-class) rather than put a two men crew in half of the tanks (and of course leave the hull-mg empty in any way)... In short ver often 2 tanks
 

Rrralphster

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 4, 2006
1,411
106
0
47
Nederland
Yeah, even without coffee that does make sense. I'm all for more awareness options for the commanders in general, either tank or normal commander.
I just assumed adding a loader/gunner would just reduce the effectiveness of the overal situation, infantry vs armour. 16 v 16 are not big teams and 4 guys in a tank instead of 3 wouldn't make it more fun. Maybe I don't get the whole picture of the idea though, could be too much coffee... :rolleyes:
And about the hull machinegunner, they can be very effective and usefull. Something needs to be done about the hull machinegun flipping from left to right for no appearant reason though.
 

Nebfer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 23, 2006
384
11
0
It would be nice to have I think.

the germans would often have 3(4) man tanks whill the sovet would often have 2(3) man tanks.

now if we could only implment the pore quality of soviet ammo.
 
My main point was, I think (?), that having the Commanders pos. doesn't do any harm, people can still get in the tanks and run off with them all by themselves BUT for 2-4 people who -choose- to get in a single tank and cooperate, it would increase combat effectiveness greatly thus also promoting the benefits of teamwork in general even more than with the currently available crew positions.
 

Karl Ritter

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 19, 2006
60
5
0
Belgium
thefifthsswiking.org
Most of what I wanted to say has already been done. Perhaps we could make it for Germans only, that way the Germans better communication is repressented, both inside the tank as with an extra man to coordinate his tank with other tanks. As for the Russians , since they wouldnt get it, they will have to use more units, thereby repressenting their superior numbers.
 

Markov

FNG / Fresh Meat
The main problem I see with this is the lack of infantry left over already. Any more people piling into tanks and you won't have any infantry to clean up the mess.

I'm not sure how you're planning on going about to do this seeing that the commander did spot, but turret gunners were also in charge of spotting and had just the same capability besides mabye a little less visibility. I don't think you could possibly force the turret gunner to be unable to operate without a commander. Although I don't like how people do like taking tanks by themselves, I'm afraid there's no way to enforce a team tank that I can think of.

A good idea, but in the end, it would end up with less infantry, more angry players, and more complexity and inhibition to gameplay. If one really does want a team, he or she should probably join a clan for best results.
 
Markov said:
The main problem I see with this is the lack of infantry left over already. Any more people piling into tanks and you won't have any infantry to clean up the mess.

I'm not sure how you're planning on going about to do this seeing that the commander did spot, but turret gunners were also in charge of spotting and had just the same capability besides mabye a little less visibility. I don't think you could possibly force the turret gunner to be unable to operate without a commander. Although I don't like how people do like taking tanks by themselves, I'm afraid there's no way to enforce a team tank that I can think of.

A good idea, but in the end, it would end up with less infantry, more angry players, and more complexity and inhibition to gameplay. If one really does want a team, he or she should probably join a clan for best results.
Huh?

Take Ogledow (?) for example. with the current max of 32 players and autobalancing on, we have 16 players for each side. Each side also has..what, say 6 or 7 Tanks at its disposal, each tank w/ 3 Positions, that makes 18-21 positions for the tanks alone, so there won't be any infantry left as it is right now anyway. Whats your point then?

The addition of a commanders position would not change one thing regarding the infantry issue, all it would do is give a dedicated team of players, such as a Clan, a more effective means of operating the tank.

And what inhibition to gameplay are we talking about here? If the commanders pos. is not manned everything would be the same as it is now, the gunner in its dual role of operating the gun as well as scanning for targets & trying to keep things under control (situational awareness), the driver & hull mg. WITH the commanders pos manned the gunner could concentrate his efforts on destroying enemy tanks while the commander keeps scanning and calling out targets, thus making THAT particular tank a more effective weapon etcblah...
 

complex buttons

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 9, 2006
22
0
0
I didn't like the idea at first, but yeah, it might be good. You occasionally have those 3 player tanks where one player occupies the relatively useless role of the front machine gunner. Now wouldn't this one player be a lot more useful if he could switch between commander and the front MG?

Currently the front MG can't even open his hatch, so he's no use for observing. But observing is quite critical sometimes. And besides, most tanks would anyway operate with only a crew of 2, probably, so the effect on infantry wouldn't be very bad.

Who knows, maybe even the now-cosmetic rear machine gun in IS-2 might get someone operating it!
 
Last edited:

shadowmoses

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 14, 2006
688
235
0
fatox said:
I would suggest separating the commander and gunner roles in tanks which have a three person turret. This would give a significant advantage to those who cooperate, with the commander spotting and directing fire. I know it will reduce the number of people on the field, but I think it would be worth it.

Any comments?
I was actually thinking about this just a while ago...
Making it so the commander and the driver and the gunner have sep roles makes the game more team based...i know that some wouldnt like this idea because they LOVE to be in their tank alone to gun (i am one of them)...but it would greatly encourage teamwork in tank maps...
1.AR[GSC]=[ENIGMA]= said:
Huh?

Take Ogledow (?) for example. with the current max of 32 players and autobalancing on, we have 16 players for each side. Each side also has..what, say 6 or 7 Tanks at its disposal, each tank w/ 3 Positions, that makes 18-21 positions for the tanks alone, so there won't be any infantry left as it is right now anyway. Whats your point then?

The addition of a commanders position would not change one thing regarding the infantry issue, all it would do is give a dedicated team of players, such as a Clan, a more effective means of operating the tank.

And what inhibition to gameplay are we talking about here? If the commanders pos. is not manned everything would be the same as it is now, the gunner in its dual role of operating the gun as well as scanning for targets & trying to keep things under control (situational awareness), the driver & hull mg. WITH the commanders pos manned the gunner could concentrate his efforts on destroying enemy tanks while the commander keeps scanning and calling out targets, thus making THAT particular tank a more effective weapon etcblah...
Now this is where i got cought up on the idea, myself...I was kinda at a crappy realization with this issue.
You must admit that it would greatly improve tank teamwork, however.
 

PilotPirx

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 7, 2006
62
2
0
I like this idea.I guess,that commander role in real tank was biggest.But depending of gameplay and limit of players in server,i think we must wait next game engine. :) Maybe novadays solution would be this - player get in tank,he take commander position(tank is now his).Driver is default AI.(when commander have more teammate,then he can open also driver seat).Gunner position is vacant and commander choice - permit concrete player in gunner position or play self in both position.Yes,present bot of ROOST is very ...... and driver role to her is too hard.But when dev's look at some others sims,like Steel Beasts or Dangerous Waters,i believe that tank battles grow into main part of ROOST.imho.
 

Heinz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 29, 2005
1,804
0
0
New York, USA
fatox said:
I would suggest separating the commander and gunner roles in tanks which have a three person turret. This would give a significant advantage to those who cooperate, with the commander spotting and directing fire. I know it will reduce the number of people on the field, but I think it would be worth it.

Any comments?
sounds like a decent idea to me. German tank deisgn was superior in that regard, in connection with it's 5-man crews. it was a distinct advantage over the russians until late in the war.