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Secondary projectiles?

ductape3

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 13, 2011
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I was watching a video the other day on bullet penetration in some thread, cant remember which one, and was thinking that it would be pretty awesome if there were secondary projectiles.

I was thinking something like where based on rough categorizations of the wall type (wood, brick, etc.), when a bullet penetrates a wall, it would throw a couple of small secondary projectiles at low speeds out in a conical area. These would be harmless outside a few meters (3?) from the point of penetration.

I know its a late and probably to much work for TWI to do before any reasonable release date (I'm ecstatic with what they have done already and wouldn't want to delay release too much), but maybe a mod then?

Just a thought.
 
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eliteghost

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 23, 2010
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While it is a great suggestion, its unfeasible. Simply put, the calculations required for that would be taxing on servers and/or client computers. This is compounded by the MGs. It definitely be done in a sequel though but for now, it would raise system requirements, thereby raising the bar of entry and limiting who can run the game and so on not to mention that it would be a waste of packets. Just let the bullets do their job, focus on hitting your enemy, not the wall. I mean no offense whatsoever by the way.
 
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LemoN

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 26, 2006
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Well, technically it is an unrealistic suggestion. Splinters/small debris do not kill people.

They usually do not even hurt people (unless you get them into your eyes, of course).
I mostly agree.

Splinters like this won't kill anybody, but may cause eye damage and small scale tissue and skin damage. IRL they're still dangerous for this reason, but they're out of question for a game with RO's scope.
 

[TW]schneidzekk

Machete Engineering.
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What about artillery, could give flak jackets some use :p
Mythbusters did something like that (Canon fired at thick wooden plank). Nothing happened to a gelatin dummy behind the wood.

Sure, it wasn't a high velocity ww2 gun and of course it wasn't a concrete wall, but... it kinda shows that debris, splinters etc aren't the problem.

The lethal **** is called shrapnel.
 
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Hypno Toad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 18, 2008
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Yeah, I highly doubt they'd produce enough debris to do any serious damage, moreover that debris just wont be moving fast enough.

I think a better question in regards to ballistics is will bullets coming through walls do less damage after coming out the other side, and will they have altered flight paths?
 

LemoN

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Feb 26, 2006
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Mythbusters did something like that (Canon fired at thick wooden plank). Nothing happened to a gelatin dummy behind the wood.

Sure, it wasn't a high velocity ww2 gun and of course it wasn't a concrete wall, but... it kinda shows that debris, splinters etc aren't the problem.

The lethal **** is called shrapnel.
You do know that cannons were known to be able to knock off splinters as long as your arm, right?

Mythbusters may be nice for some things, but as soon as they touch a firearm, I call BS upon it.
 
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Mormegil

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Nov 21, 2005
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From what I've read on tall ships, most injuries taken care of by the ship's surgeons after battle was from splinters. I guess anyone else actually hit by cannon fire would just be dead or dying (so not worth treating).

That Mythbusters episode was tackling the idea that the splinters were more deadly than the cannonballs themselves. They considered it busted, as direct hit by cannon fire on pig carcasses caused lethal damage (no surprise), but splinters flying off the wood planks didn't cause any instantly lethal damage on the pigs. They did get embedded in the pigs, somewhat, but nothing instantly lethal.

Couple of things to note: of course direct cannon fire would be more deadly. Splinters flying around wouldn't be immediately lethal, but could probably lead to bad infections down the road, which could prove lethal, or at least seriously cause a dip in sailor productivity. Remember, not only was this before the age of anti-biotics (as was WWII for the most part), but even before anti-septics and washing your hands before surgery.

So, no splinters shouldn't kill in RO, unless we want to start modeling several days into the battle with no medical attention...
 
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LemoN

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 26, 2006
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Well, at least they are not just talking. They actually shoot cannons.

Where is your video?
No video required, just read a couple of historical accounts, especially KIA and WIA reports.

From the Crimean war 1854:
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/NAVALBRIGADE1854.html

Sir Walter Raleigh received a splinter wound which lamed him.

The Times newspaper 1863 records:
http://www.pdavis.nl/Japan.php

Nelson got once wounded in the stomache by a splinter.

Both veterans from the WW1 fighting in the Argonne forest and WW2 fighting in the Ardennes recall that splinters from HE rounds exploding in trees could be highly lethal.

Etc etc etc.


PS: I'll take official records over all the crap that Mythbusters put out. Also, the cannon they used was a 6-pounder cannon, in reality for naval warfare you'd be looking at a 12, 24 or even 32 pounder cannon firing. They basically used a .22LR to simulate the damage that a .50BMG round will do. Also, warships had thicker planking than what they used, at last 0.5m at the waterline. Also, they used pine, a soft-wood, while usually ships were built of oak, teak or cedar, all hard-woods.
 
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Major_Day

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 16, 2007
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Glasgow, Scotland
Flying debris may not be an instant killer,but shards of glass from an exploding/imploding window could be.

Exploding hedgehogs are very dangerous as well,but usually not lethal:):):) (no prick jokes please) lol
 
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213

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 22, 2009
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random debris that rarely kills people...what's next on the to do list? fatal lighting strikes?
 

Felix Ostheim

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 9, 2005
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Ohio, United States
At the very least I'd like to see some shrapnel effects from explosions. Yes shrapnel and shards of debris were not necessarily deadly, but they were and still are serious threats in many combat situations. The primary reason for wearing metal helmets in both WW1 and 2 was to protect the head from dangerous falling/flying material.
 
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Krator

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2010
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Of course debris doesn't kill people (in most cases). But it's a damn good reason for some really hard supression effects. F.e. if you look at the wall (in general direction, not necesarrily directly) that's being hit by MG42 from the other side, you should have some serious vision problems caused by all the debris and dust. The same with MG bullets landing in the sand 20cm from your face etc. It doesn't kill or seriously wound in most cases but IMO should be taken into account.
 

ductape3

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 13, 2011
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As far as the cannons go, a ship warfare doctrine was to aim around the cannon ports to create the flying splinters, this way, the gun crew was wounded and the gun could be disabled and an added bonus the guns might be disabled. Also as Mormegil said, some of those splinters were huge and would impale people. Closer to spears if you ask me.

Also, while from some small arms the secondary debris is less effective, the debris only causing scratches and such, so maybe suppression effect is plenty for this?, but start hitting the higher calibers like .50 and then up to the 30mm chain gun on modern apc's main weapon that they show secondary fragments that are possibly lethal to almost certainly leathal (a piece on concrete embeds itself in a Mannequin from the 50cal and debris from the 30mm exits the back of the building easily)

the source would be the Concealment does NOT equal Cover video put out by the marine corps (theres a full version floating around on the forum somewhere but you can see a version on youtube with some small gaps).

So ya, not realistic in terms of capability at the moment but maybe in the future...

...or just for artillery
 

[TW]schneidzekk

Machete Engineering.
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text about big guns and stuff
You probably forgot that I am talking about RO2 weapons and that the Mythbusters cannon is way bigger than anything people will be carrying around in RO2: The weapons in RO2 will shoot projectiles in the sub ounce range, not pounds.

I don't care if a dude got killed by splinters from a 345 pounder in 1245. It is simply not relevant.
 

LemoN

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 26, 2006
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You probably forgot that I am talking about RO2 weapons and that the Mythbusters cannon is way bigger than anything people will be carrying around in RO2: The weapons in RO2 will shoot projectiles in the sub ounce range, not pounds.

I don't care if a dude got killed by splinters from a 345 pounder in 1245. It is simply not relevant.
Then you could simply have read my first post in this thread instead of trying to ridicule me.:rolleyes:
I did what you asked for, provide information.

It was you who started with tall ship cannons, and used it to compare to modern large caliber HE rounds, which is pretty ridiculous by itself.

I mostly agree.

Splinters like this won't kill anybody, but may cause eye damage and small scale tissue and skin damage. IRL they're still dangerous for this reason, but they're out of question for a game with RO's scope.
Oh snap!
 
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[TW]schneidzekk

Machete Engineering.
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Well, I wasn't actually trying to ridicule you. There are people out there who are creative and actually use their creativity and skills to entertain us and create interesting things. Some even try to teach us some science and or get kids interested in science. People like the mythbusters for example.

Then we have this army of internet experts that use their google skills to prove them wrong or at least find a minor detail that could be wrong. If successful (and you always find something if you only google hard enough), rave about it on an internet forum. That is the usual destructive e-penis behavior and it is just too common these days. Quite annoying imho.

I prefer the creative people, who come up with their own stuff and ideas and even if they are not 100% right all the time (and nobody is for that matter), they are at least trying to add something to our lives.

That is why I asked for your video and not some random google result. Even if their video might have been wrong or their lack of firearm knowledge is disturbing.... it was a nice example that splinters from a wooden wall fired at from a gun bigger than any infantry weapon we have in RO2 do not really hurt the player.

Sorry, I should be more precise next time, no need to rant then.