Scaling difficulty down when someone dies is poor design

[Multihog]

It's insane how the game's difficulty dynamically scales down depending on the number of currently alive players. Why is it insane? Because it means that someone dying can potentially be beneficial. It should *never* be beneficial to lose a player. It goes against the whole cooperative spirit of the game.

The objective should be to keep as many players alive as possible because each player should be an asset. This isn't the case, however, as it's often beneficial to lose a player who isn't playing all that effectively. The game shouldn't scale down zeds' stats, at least not to the degree it currently does.

Additionally, as it stands, a medic, for example, can survive indefinitely in a Hell on Earth game where all others died because he's essentially playing solo mode now, with all the parameters of a solo round. It results in a very drawn-out, boring round where the medic just runs around the map unkillable, slowly whittling down the zed numbers. At this point on my friend's server, we usually just die on purpose because it's too tedious for both the player and the spectators. If the scaling wasn't so stupid, this wouldn't even happen.

 

[JediPeaceWalker]

That's not how the game works. If it scaled down, self-healing would be at 50 instead of 20, boss health would scale down, zed count would scale down, zed health would scale down, zed defense would scale down, and zeds would magically disappear to fit single player max zed spawn. A smart, lone person can corral the zeds easier, and the zeds focus only on one person, making it much easier to aim. Perhaps that's why you think it's scaling down.
Maybe it's the server scaling it down. It definitely doesn't get easier in small maps or rooms. I've been the surviving gunslinger on wave 50+ and the Scrakes don't get any easier.

 

[Humam2104]

Well, the game conductor scales down to 0, but that's temporary for 15 seconds after someone dies.
And yes the medic is OP in this game. I just played a game yesterday with 2 other players on suicidal, they died facing the matriarch and I survived and won!
Even though she gets up to 30% movement speed bonus. but I'm a medic and she can't catch me!
It's just stupid how all other perks are really slow against bosses. Not all perks are optimized for hell on earth in my opinion

 

[Multihog]

That's not how the game works. If it scaled down, self-healing would be at 50 instead of 20, boss health would scale down, zed count would scale down, zed health would scale down, zed defense would scale down, and zeds would magically disappear to fit single player max zed spawn. A smart, lone person can corral the zeds easier, and the zeds focus only on one person, making it much easier to aim. Perhaps that's why you think it's scaling down.
Maybe it's the server scaling it down. It definitely doesn't get easier in small maps or rooms. I've been the surviving gunslinger on wave 50+ and the Scrakes don't get any easier.

It doesn't make a difference. The zeds that spawn from that point on will be heavily nerfed (based on player count), and the maximum zed count alive simultaneously plummets to pathetic levels, making it almost identical to solo, where a medic/zerk/slinger can never die unless a very poor player. In my opinion, the game should never scale down at all, making it crucial to keep your teammates alive. This way, there would be a real gameplay incentive to heal your teammates and keep them alive, instead of "I'll just heal this guy because why not; it gives me some dosh! If he dies, though, it won't really be an issue because the game will just potentially get easier."

You're wrong in those points, by the way, because the health of newly spawned zeds, as well as damage and maximum spawn limit (plus probably other factors such as speed), does go down.

This game actually rewards losing all your teammates if you're a berserker or medic or another class that survives well alone, which is horrendous design.

 

[Humam2104]

Medic/Zerk/GS are all OP perks, try SWAT as a last man standing and let's see what you think about it
My point is, yes the game needs to scale down but these perks are already too powerful and can handle anything. the perks might need to be nerfed but not the game conductor.
imo, I think the other perks need a buff and then that feature can removed entirely

 

[Multihog]

Medic/Zerk/GS are all OP perks, try SWAT as a last man standing and let's see what you think about it
My point is, yes the game needs to scale down but these perks are already too powerful and can handle anything. the perks might need to be nerfed but not the game conductor.
imo, I think the other perks need a buff and then that feature can removed entirely

I'm not sure if that would be enough by itself, though it, too, would be welcome. I think the scaling might still be too lenient.

 

[Humam2104]

I remember that the spreadsheet and the wiki said that Low intensity mode (game gets easier) is only achieved at difficulties lower than HOE or in normal waves (Not a boss wave)

 

[Multihog]

I remember that the spreadsheet and the wiki said that Low intensity mode (game gets easier) is only achieved at difficulties lower than HOE or in normal waves (Not a boss wave)

Do you even play HoE? It's a thing, on HoE and every other difficulty.

The way it works is that on HoE, the game doesn't get easier *during the wave if people don't die* (game conductor), but it will still scale down, aka nerf, *newly spawned zeds* if players have died prior to their spawning.

 

[Humam2104]

Source: https://wiki.killingfloor2.com/index.php?title=Mechanics_(Killing_Floor_2)#Gameplay_-_Game_Conductor

 

[Multihog]

View attachment 2335859
Source: https://wiki.killingfloor2.com/index.php?title=Mechanics_(Killing_Floor_2)#Gameplay_-_Game_Conductor

Yeah, I've read this page too, and I know this part. So what if this is the case? It's only one tiny part of the puzzle. You can't be seriously suggesting there's no scaling happening whatsoever. The fact that a lone survivor can beat a wave of 200 zeds (with the rest of the team having died) is proof alone that scaling down *does* occur.

You're ignoring three factors: maximum zeds spawned at once, zed health, zed damage multiplier. All of these are affected by amount of players alive, which you will see if you read more of that page. From wiki: "amount of the health and head health for each next spawned ZED depends on amount of the LIVING players." About damage multiplier I'm not 100% sure because the wiki doesn't explicitly state it adjusts in real-time mid-wave, but I bet it does. But these 2 other factors 100% do happen with certainty, zed HP and maximum zeds alive simultaneously.

You're proving nothing about the overall situation by highlighting this tiny detail about zed attack cooldowns. And even this "low intensity mode" here is contradictory: if this doesn't happen on HoE, then why is there a "mode duration" for HoE at all? Seems nonsensical.

The fact is that the game does potentially get easier if people die, and that's a problem. It's a thing that happens out there in the real world, and it's something that should never happen. The game should ALWAYS get harder if people die, because it should be the essence of any co-op survival game. Better overall survival = more success. This game has it backwards: losing players = potentially helpful.

All I want to do is to improve this game here. What I see here is a horrendous, fundamental design flaw that should be remedied as soon as possible.

 

[Humam2104]

Well, I'm sure of the max zeds at map. Yes they do scale.
Zed health doesn't scale.
But I'm very sure that normal waves get easier on last player standing while you get screwed on boss waves if you're alone which is ironic -_-

 

[Multihog]

Well, I'm sure of the max zeds at map. Yes they do scale.
Zed health doesn't scale.

Except it does:

There's also mention of "last man alive" here, regarding damage resistance:

So the truth is that A LOT of stuff does scale down.

 

[Humam2104]

Except it does:
View attachment 2335862
There's also mention of "last man alive" here, regarding damage resistance:
View attachment 2335863
So the truth is that A LOT of stuff does scale down.

I didn't know this piece of information, it's always good to learn from the community.
So the fp gains more resistance then (0.5→0.625)? and spawns can get damage from toxicity in solo?

 

[pie1055]

So the fp gains more resistance then (0.5→0.625)?

Nope. He loses resistance. Say you're doing 100 damage. At 0.5 resistance it gets lowered to 50 damage. At 0.625, 62.5 damage. Those numbers are the direct multipliers the game uses for damage, not some arbitrary "amount of resistance". Once they become greater than 1 they begin increasing the damage you're dealing to them, because math.