RO2 The Future

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ButchCassidy

Moderator
Feb 17, 2006
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The Hole in the Wall
www.twbclan.com
I have been here a long time..Since the beginning of Red Orchestra as a retail franchise and I make no apologies about being a fan of the games and of TWI as a company.

I played the original mod and remember "thinking what a great game this would make"..

RO1 did indeed turn out to be a very good game.
Although it was limited by its learning curve which made the game to difficult for many players to get that instant gratification they found with other games such as Call of duty or Battlefield.

But lets be honest RO1 was not a main stream game and did not command the sorts of player numbers as its more arcade based siblings.
None the less it still had a loyal fanbase who were feircly protective of TWI and the game and rightly so as I still believe that TWI offer some of the best support for their products I have ever seen.

So when plans were unveiled to release RO2 with the intention of making it more accessible to main stream players I think most players and fans thought great stuff.

Now RO2 is in the wild and TWI have admitted that the condition of the games release was not ideal.
Too many bugs, too many performance issues, I don't think anyone can deny that and neither have TWI.
But whats done is done, its no use crying over spilt milk.
We are all geniuses in hindsight and I doubt TWI wanted or indeed intended to release the game with that many issues.

The good news is that they have not scammpered off to hide underneath some rock but have instead taken the failings and criticism head on and begun patching like there's no tomorrow.
I find that in itself encouraging and the fact that they are publicly stating their intention to provide long term supprt for RO2.
We are not talking weeks or months here either we are talking a couple of years.

So what of the games future?

I have read a great deal about the game dying, about player numbers decreasing because some people feel the game has overstepped the "more accessible" mark or its not like RO1 or its maps are too small or the weapons are too powerful or the ranking system has ruined the game.
I'm not going to agree or disagree with peoples personal opinions for the various reasons as to why they feel RO2 is not the game for them.

Examining the biggest issue of player numbers on a wider scale is a more productive way of looking at the games future overall.

Was it ever reasonable to believe that RO2 would maintain the 9,000+ from launch?
No not really, many people bought the game to "give it a go" and found it not to their taste this accounted for a lot of players leaving the playerbase.
but the next biggest single issue by far has been performance.
Many people read the minimum spec and found their PC could not run it at a good enough reasonable graphics setting to enjoy.
Many others have great rigs and still had problems running the game.
Again a large portion of players have stopped playing because of this.

Currently player numbers are down to about 1500 at peak.

Many claim they were dropping anyway before BF3 was released.
Well in part true but then again anyone who thought that BF3 releasing a beta just a couple of weeks into RO2's release and then the subsequent release of BF3 would not impact on RO2's player base was not being realistic.
BF3 will impact on Call of duty MW3's release and playerbase let alone that of a small indie company.
So can we reasonably expect another slight drop?
Well considering that RO2 has even less in common with MW3 than BF3 this would seem unlikely but lets say it does have a minor impact and the player takes a small hit which would not be that unreasonable.
So we could be looking at something like 1200+ prior to christmas.
Looking bad enough for everyone?

So what now..Now the game has taken the worst of the hits from other releases and we can reasonably expect that this number will be solid..
We have been here before I seem to remember with both RO1 and Killing floor.
And yet both seemed to have survived in particular Killing floor made an astonishing comeback from under 1000 to present day 3000+

So can we expect the same for RO2?
Why not as RO2 is TWI's fastest selling game, if we can readily take the negatives I have stated as mostly the reasons for the state of the game now can we not expect that the future will hold the same consequences for RO2 if TWI perform as they have done in the past.

TWI will begin to clear all the last bugs and performance issues over the next few weeks and Campaign and co-op will hopefully get released just after Xmas,Clan match mode and SDK will be made fully functional around the same time I would expect.
New maps and vehicles will get released and I would not be surprised to see something before xmas and of course we get a few free weekends.
Will this all make a difference?

It has in the past so why not with RO2 and would it be that unreasonable to see player numbers to begin to rise once all the support and content begin to take effect and some players have had their fill of BF3 and MW3.
It is not in the realms of fantasy to expect an increase in player numbers way beyond the numbers now.

Finally I would say to all those vetrans of RO do not be so eager to dismiss your own input as being invalid or as not being heard.
The rantings will be ignored but reasonable argument and requests will not be.
TWI may not be perfect but they are not the personification of evil on earth they are just human beings like us with the same desires for success as each of us.
A good idea is a good idea and if it makes sense to change things and it can be done then don't expect that it will not be.
 
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Echo Black

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 14, 2011
294
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Your post is reasonable but at the same time a bit long-winded. Saying "Just give it time" would have the same effect, I think. Anyways, the potential great shape of a future RO2 should not get in the way of people criticizing it now, or along its way there. If people can level praise now and not only when the game reaches its full potential, the same goes for dissatisfaction.

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Thaelyn

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 19, 2011
298
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Tulsa, Ok
Your post is reasonable but at the same time a bit long-winded. Saying "Just give it time" would have the same effect, I think. Anyways, the potential great shape of a future RO2 should not get in the way of people criticizing it now, or along its way there. If people can level praise now and not only when the game reaches its full potential, the same goes for dissatisfaction.

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I don't think that's what he's saying at all, Echo. He's simply pointing out, and he's absolutely right, that a reasonable post stating what you think is wrong and how you think it would be better will go a lot further than the ridiculous and pointless hyperbole that permeates most every dissatisfaction post on this forum.

The hyperbole is, in my opinion, the refuge of those unwilling or unable to make a persuasive argument. It does absolutely nothing to further their point and simply makes them look like a closed minded troll. If more people would post in a way that clearly outlines their views without resorting to that kind of crap, then discussion is encouraged and the community can far more easily influence the direction of the game moving forward. Isn't that what the people who aren't satisfied want?
 

Echo Black

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 14, 2011
294
340
0
The hyperbole is, in my opinion, the refuge of those unwilling or unable to make a persuasive argument. It does absolutely nothing to further their point and simply makes them look like a closed minded troll. If more people would post in a way that clearly outlines their views without resorting to that kind of crap, then discussion is encouraged and the community can far more easily influence the direction of the game moving forward. Isn't that what the people who aren't satisfied want?

You shouldn't disregard critique just because it's inflammatory. Certainly it would be a very nice world if everyone present their views with a modicum of sensibility and persuasive argumentation, but you're gonna have consumers of all kinds. Some of them will be more explosive, some of them will not even have the ability to produce a post that fits your standards of coherence, or be "well-argued" at all. Customers being less than polite (within a reasonable limit) with their demands is certainly an unpleasant part of business, but a part of business nonetheless. They should not be unheard, or dismissed. Certainly all complaints have a motivation, even hyperbolic complaints?

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gyps

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2009
822
73
0
Good post from a long standing player

I like you think by christmas will have lost those that are destined to leave

Hopefully and judging by past experaince the Dev's will take on board sensible feed back and impliment changes accordingly, which i believe reading the lastest post from Yosh and Ramm, imply they will.

Players numbers will climb again, to what level who knows but i think they go up.

So the game has a future contary to what some post, with the right support it actaully has a rosey future not tommor or next week but by next year things should be looking up

DLC will hopefully be out, some of the mods may be nearing release
 

Thaelyn

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 19, 2011
298
97
0
Tulsa, Ok
You shouldn't disregard critique just because it's inflammatory. Certainly it would be a very nice world if everyone present their views with a modicum of sensibility and persuasive argumentation, but you're gonna have consumers of all kinds. Some of them will be more explosive, some of them will not even have the ability to produce a post that fits your standards of coherence, or be "well-argued" at all. Customers being less than polite (within a reasonable limit) with their demands is certainly an unpleasant part of business, but a part of business nonetheless. They should not be unheard, or dismissed. Certainly all complaints have a motivation, even hyperbolic complaints?

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You're absolutely right, but ask yourself this question. Which type of post are you more likely to take note of, one that says (for the sake of example) "I think the number of AVT/MKB weapons should be reduced and limited to only those selected as heroes. These were experimental weapons that, historically, saw very little use in the battle of Stalingrad and as such should be more rare in the interest of authenticity" or "Fantasy weapons suck. TWI is trying to make this like COD". Which is more likely to get some consideration from the devs and which is more prevalent on the forums?

I'm not denying that people have the right to ***** and moan. What I'm saying is that the expectation that flaming the devs and making unfounded accusations because you're not happy with a feature is going to do little to nothing to motivate TWI to make the changes you want. People should learn to separate their *****ing from their attempts to effect change. I think they would find much more success if they did. One is not conducive to the other, in my opinion.
 
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Echo Black

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 14, 2011
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You're absolutely right, but ask yourself this question. Which type of post are you more likely to take note of, one that says (for the sake of example) "I think the number of AVT/MKB weapons should be reduced and limited to only those selected as heroes. These were experimental weapons that, historically, saw very little use in the battle of Stalingrad and as such should be more rare in the interest of authenticity" or "Fantasy weapons suck. TWI is trying to make this like COD". Which is more likely to get some consideration from the devs and which is more prevalent on the forums?

Honestly? I would identify the idea behind the complaints is the same in both cases, and just attempt not to mind the snark in the second opinion. TWI are all grown-ups, surely they can extract the overall idea from inflammatory posts without losing sleep over insults or remarks that were uncalled for? I do not condone rudeness, but you also don't pick your customers.

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Thaelyn

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 19, 2011
298
97
0
Tulsa, Ok
Honestly? I would identify the idea behind the complaints is the same in both cases, and just attempt not to mind the snark in the second opinion. TWI are all grown-ups, surely they can extract the overall idea from inflammatory posts without losing sleep over insults or remarks that were uncalled for? I do not condone rudeness, but you also don't pick your customers.

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Fair enough. I just think that you have to, when trying to influence other people, take human nature into account. Human nature will lead fo much of the hyperbole, yes, but it will also lead those reading it to more readily dismiss it as the intellectual equivalent of "Nuh-uh!"
 

Private Who?

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 18, 2006
721
139
0
Texas
Many others have great rigs and still had problems running the game.
Again a large portion of players have stopped playing because of this.

Nice post Butch. I'm trying to be patient here, and that helps.

+1 for dropping out because of performance issues with a more-than-solid rig. It was smooth...and I was happy...and then one-too-many patches later and my frames are down the tubes, pings are all over the place...and I'm outta here. (at least for now.)

Anxiously awaiting developments.
 

the_Monk

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 4, 2011
286
145
0
Is it really realistic to compare the launch (and possible player increase) of a game from 2006 to one that of today?

I mean there is so much more competition today, the young gamer isn't in tune with and doesn't want the things in an FPS that we wanted back in 2006. I mean just look at BF3's battlelog. It's facebook for the FPS and it is working quite well actually. Do I want it? No. Again, is it working for the masses of new/young gamers? Yes.

Personally I think the "state of the game" for RO2 is much more dire than any of you are willing to admit. I predict that even with the MODS RO2 will never achieve the longevity of RO1. I guess we'll have to wait and see but in my opinion, today's FPS gamer is much more fickle and conditioned to jump to the next new thing on an almost quarterly schedule for RO2 to have much "longevity" whith peak player counts already as low as 1500. Sorry.
 

Nagels

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 9, 2006
468
26
0
West Cork, Ireland
Many of us have been around for a while as you said Butch.
However this was a game release which didn't endear itself to many with various issues involved.

These were issues raised in the closed beta by many (myself included) in a reasonable, polite and proper manner which it must be said were not responded to in a manner that inspired faith to be blunt.

These issues with gameplay -performance and bugs have isolated many gamers from RO2 at this juncture.

A better PR interaction with beta testers pre launch may have reaped better dividends and now it will take some time for faith to be restored.
Bugs are to be expected,

Hopefully the game will become what it could be over the next while and restore the interest of thousands.
 
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=GG= Mr Moe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 16, 2006
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Newton, NJ
Good post Butch.

For the most part I am in it for the long haul. For me, Heroes is the only new war fps for me, even if there are a few things I am dissatisfied with. I like it and it still has great potential and hopefully it will have the player numbers it deserves. At the very least I'm sure bugs and performance issues will be resolved.

But quite honestly, its not just the game for me. Strangely enough, the TWI community and the forums are a big part (of the game) for me too. I have probably spent as much time in here as I have playing TWI's games (ROOST, KF etc).
 

Nikita

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2011
1,874
606
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+1 to OP.

As far as inflammatory critique goes, I agree that it's wholly uneccessary, and utterly counterproductive.

Sure, you can't miss recognizing the fact that the game may need improvement if you see the forums full of flame, but bowing down before some snarky, flame-filled anonymous poster who just accused you of rolling around in his money and called your work in the last three weeks a joke just isn't something that comes easily to the average human. Sitting down at a discussion table with some level-headed, well-informed community members? That's a whole new ball game.

Imagine running over your neighbor's fence. The next day, he comes stomping up to your door, swearing, foaming at the mouth, pushing you around, yelling obscenities, and threatening you with legal action.

Now imagine that instead, that neighbor simply knocked on your door sternly, gave you a look in the eye, crossed his arms, and asked if you would be so kind as to pay some compensation.

Who would you be more likely to negotiate with? I don't know about you, but if the first neighbor was obnoxious enough I'd probably be more willing to shoot his pet cat than repair his fence. :p
 

Colt .45 killer

Grizzled Veteran
May 19, 2006
3,998
775
113
+1 Moe, A good community always adds to the game and makes it better.


@ Butch, good post.

If I can just delve into what you said here for a moment, I have one disagreement that I have eluded to elsewhere but never gone and written out.

Yes well all know that the playercount dropped heavily in the first few weeks, and yes I wont deny that a lot of it was probably bug related. But I do not think that it is completely fair to excuse those who leave with them discovering that it wasn't the game for them. We need to examine this area closer, the whole point of RO2's accessibility changes was to attract a wider audience( AND KEEP THEM PLAYING ). So then, why did this attempt meet such a brick wall? Sure they purchased the game, but then they turned around and left in droves.
Finding out what made them leave, aside from bug related issues, would be a great place to start with when re structuring the game modes.

That said, I am of the personal bias that many of these people were expecting a more overall realistic tone to the game.


And yes, with mods Im quite sure that the game will last quite a long time.
 
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=GG= Mr Moe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 16, 2006
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...We need to examine this area closer, the whole point of RO2's accessibility changes was to attract a wider audience( AND KEEP THEM PLAYING ). So then, why did this attempt meet such a brick wall? Sure they purchased the game, but then they turned around and left in droves.
Finding out what made them leave, aside from bug related issues, would be a great place to start with when re structuring the game modes.

That said, I am of the personal bias that many of these people were expecting a more overall realistic tone to the game.


And yes, with mods Im quite sure that the game will last quite a long time.

I'm sure that is being looked into by TWI and speculated on by the rest of us. Personally I think the biggest issues were bugs and performance problems, of which only one is extremely annoying to me (browser refresh). Then the next biggest I would agree with you and that would be the overall realistic tone to the game.
 

ButchCassidy

Moderator
Feb 17, 2006
3,727
277
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The Hole in the Wall
www.twbclan.com
Is it really realistic to compare the launch (and possible player increase) of a game from 2006 to one that of today?

I mean there is so much more competition today, the young gamer isn't in tune with and doesn't want the things in an FPS that we wanted back in 2006. I mean just look at BF3's battlelog. It's facebook for the FPS and it is working quite well actually. Do I want it? No. Again, is it working for the masses of new/young gamers? Yes.

I must admit I did consider this factor but discounted it because it sounded like an excuse..But after doing a little digging it would appear that new games are not lasting as long..

Brink, HomeFront both died within a couple of months of release..Mainly due to very poor support compounded by paid DLC in HomeFronts case.
They appeared to be poor decisions made at bad times by dev teams with no real perception of just what was really needed to make the game survive..Thats what i thought at the time..However more recently I believe the decisions were more economic, designed to maximise turnover during a perceived brief sales windows..Is this a trend..Yes I think so, will it happen with RO..I think not..;)