RO Stats

[Pyros777]

My apologies if this has been discussed already.

One of my favorite "eras" of the Red Orchestra mod, was the brief period somewhere between 3.2 and 3.3 where we had stats tracking provided to us by a third party.

Will RO:HoS incorporate any sort of stats tracking?

Here is a look at the old stats system:

rostats.net

As you can see, it was very detailed and greatly enhanced gameplay for many people. It also made playing matches all the more fun because as soon as it was over, you could head on over to the stats website to see how you did either as an individual or against other players.

Granted, there are reasons to NOT have a stats tracking system in RO, such as individuals ignoring team play in an effort to improve their own stats.

Still, this is a feature I would like to see in the new RO.

 

[smokeythebear]

Real stats tracking was confirmed in the PCG article. I hope there is some kind of ranking system as well.

 

[Pyros777]

Oh wow, cool!

 

[Flogger23m]

I don't care for it. Score keeping seems best for a game like UT or CS.

Lets focus on the actual gameplay.

 

[worluk]

Real stats tracking was confirmed in the PCG article. I hope there is some kind of ranking system as well.

Tbh. i doubt the stats will go beyond steamworks stats seen in other games.
The UT stat system was able to track accuracies with every weapon, which imo was the most interesting part.

 

[Uurastaja]

I'm expecting lots of players turning up complete arses just for the sake of how good their k/d ratio and other info look in their profiles.

I'm happy if there will be unranked/unstats servers, though.

 

[slyder73]

One of the best things about Red Orchestra was that it did not have stats and players could focus on teamwork and helping their team win rather than personal stats or kill/death ratio's etc.

If there are going to be stats in HOS, I think the stats should focus strictly on qualities that would be helpful to the team, perhaps things like "number of enemies killed to prevent a cap", "number of caps", "number of caps participated in with squad leader", and maybe more specific things for roles to encourage the role to do their job for the team. Snipers may have stats like, "enemies sniped while capping a zone", or for MG's "enemies killed from inside a capzone" etc.

Those sound cumbersome but you should get my point, I like the idea of stats only if they focus on team goals and not at all on personal glory. Personal stats would only encourage less teamwork.

 

[7-CLOWN-7]

Another thing for caps would be to split the meter as they have it now, that way if you are at least in the zone you receive points for the time that you are there. Those who sometimes spend 5 minutes in the cap to only die with a hair left on the meter and to receive 0 royally sucks. If the meter were split and you were there for 1/2 or 3/4 you'd receive points accordingly.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

steam acheivements and a "promotion" system would be nice, but individual player rankings would not be at all constructive and will take away from teamplay. it is nice for people to show off their skills and acheivements but rankings really take it to the next extreme in boosting one's online ego.

like worluk said, some overall game stats like weapon kills/accuracy, amount of times a map is played, or amount of allied/axis victories on maps are useful and interesting. even individual player weapon/player class stats would be cool; one of the few things that DOD does that is interesting.

the in-game scoreboard is already bad enough for encouraging individuals to be point whores to be on the top of the list.

 

[Zetsumei]

I like the kills per hour ratio. Rather than kill/death ratio in games.

As dying makes you walk from spawn you loose a lot of time, yet you need to be in the heat of battle as much as possible.

In the mod when looking at the fph ratio, the ranking was pretty much of how i personally thought players should be. And the first few spots were actually rifleman and not smg.

 

[Nestor Makhno]

To encourage realism, rather than kills/hour or k/d, how about getting the lowest possible deaths/hour ratio?

 

[Zetsumei]

the issue with that is that maps are probably still bound to a time limit.
Meaning if done realistic especially on a computergame in public too many would stay and sit back in their spawn trying to shoot people and survive rather than win the map.

The most kills are made being on the frontline, and when considering kills/hour people are either making loads of kills, and with that not dying too much because then you loose precious killing time.

Ideally i want a form of fear of death (or i would rather call it punishment of death). But not through a point system or ranking system. With a point system most people wont care about it, with a ranking system people might just idle in a server in the spawn.


The issue i have with kill death ratio is that it can cause people to sit back in spawn and make 4 kills in an entire round and get a good kill/death ratio.
In my opinion kill/death ratio only mean something if reinforcements would be more inportant like in games where you have 1 life.

A kill/death ratio would then mean that you killed a set percentage of the people on the server. However with nearly inifinite players to kill contantly you can rank up a really high k/d ratio without ever actually killing a vast amount of people or helping your team.

Together that different classes will get different k/d ratio's, snipers are often far back relatively safe picking people off, while smgs are right in the heat of battle.

The issue with deaths/hour is that you can just never cap kill or whatever, and just join a server with people and walk around in spawn to make your stats better while you're effectively doing nothing for your team.

The reason for kills/hour for me is that in the old mod it portrayed skill of players generally the best.
If you went rambo with a smg you died too much and in the walking back from spawn you would loose a lot of time making you not be able to grab the top spots.

 

[Pyros777]

I remember rostats working quite well as far as the community was concerned when it was around. The only reason it went away was because the person working on it disappeared off the face of the earth.

Anyway, I would be happy even if the player ranking was removed. I just like to see all the statistical information like accuracy, kills vs player, deaths vs player, kills with weapon, deaths with weapon, etc.

Something about knowing all that info actually makes the game more immersive for me. Nothing "gamey" about it if you ask me.

 

[7-CLOWN-7]

People always complain about stats and anything similar, but regardless of what many say people enjoy being able to brag and enjoy being able to prove their skills via stats and the like, instead of just posting or stating their skills, everything is there to be seen and there is nothing that can then be argued.

Most of the popular games have always had sites that kept stats or simply gone to internal stat tracking. Examples of this were the Battlefield Series, the first games in the series did NOT have any stat tracking other than sites that created databases etc similar to ROStats. BF2 then added all the stats within game with something similar to achievements but far more advanced with actual rankings and earnings of metals, ranks (Military Rankings), and had all of the others that have been mentioned in this thread, they have a complete stat tracking of ingame happenings.

It's too bad ROStats went away and it's a shame someone didn't take the defunct database and revamp it. Anyone with database skills could easily port to a new site or create a new site altogether from scratch with ideas that have been mentioned here. You could do it now for the old game and probably could do it for the new when released and show ONLY the things everyone wants.

There already are stats within RO but they were never turned on or coding was dropped for the ingame stats. You can see in game there are Rankings but everyone is 0 because the coding was not finished or used, then if you look with the Webadmin there is already a kill/death ratio as well and suicides. So the old game already has everything there, it's just tapping into it and getting it to a database or website to show those things off and this was what ROStats probably had done.

Sure people have always said about point whoring in all versions to date of stat tracking but with all the years of knowing this, there are many ways to defeat it or have things properly represented and maybe if they have full stats it will be done properly and be the one all to beat all stats version in the new game? Only time will tell. With many threads like this they may finally have what everyone will agree is by far the best stat tracking system to date and that alone will bring many non-fans over to the game.

It's the nature of the beast and everyone wants to be the BEST, with RO though the so called point whoring reallly is better for the team in the long run, because when done properly it's about capping and the more caps the better. Sure you could resupply but it actually helps the team as well, so the way the game is currently with points etc. is already pretty well done but to show how the points were grabbed is what people would like to see. Example: in a single round I get 120 points, 20 points (Resupply), 50 points, (Caps), 50 points (Kills) - of course there are no penalties for deaths, other than an eventual loss of the round by the team. Now if you were to point whore in a WEAK way then people that do NOTHING but resupply it would be known.

I've always wished there were a TEAM BONUS - what this would be is an extra 50-100 points given to everyone on a team for WINNING, which then would make more people eager to get that WIN to improve their points and so those on the losing team that would have tons of points would then not look so good to the worse player on the winning team or even a stat similar to hockey like a + or - or something showing you've been on the winning team 75% of the time or on the losing team 25% of the time or vice versa.

Either way this subject is always a 2 way street for those that love stats and those that hate them. Personally I think a game that is just play (Win or Lose) for most is not really that fun, and unfortunately is not enough to keep peoples interest, you need to give folks something to strive for individually and that's partly why they have points already in game and most if not all games have some sort of stats or rankings.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

clown brings up some very good points. for one, the idea that everything is about stats.....being a baseball and sports guy myself, i totally agree. the only way to evaulate your skill level and improvement is by comparing your stats with those of others.

the points per hour or points per minute idea that zets mentions is a very good way of evaluating abilities. people may put up 3000 points but it might take them 100 hrs as opposed to a person that gets 1500 points in 5 hours of play. which player is better? obviously the player that gets more points in less time. [url]www.gametracker.com[/URL] does a good job keeping stats like that based off of individual servers, but the only problem there is that stats are kept by playername not GUID so people who change their name by adding clan tags, ranks, or just for the fun of it won't see true stat tracking.

like clown was pointing out, RO is extremely unique in the way stats are kept and that is what so many love about it. ranks go by total points which is better than games that just focus on flag captures or frags. what RO has figured out is how to evenly distribute those points through caps, resupplies, kills etc... and all the point earning functions are designed to help assist in a team victory.

stat tracking and acheivements are good things so long as they are done correctly. and by correctly i mean the way that RO:O currently impliments stats and acheivements. i trust that TWI would not screw something up that has worked so well over the years.

 

[slyder73]

I like the kills per hour ratio. Rather than kill/death ratio in games.

As dying makes you walk from spawn you loose a lot of time, yet you need to be in the heat of battle as much as possible.

In the mod when looking at the fph ratio, the ranking was pretty much of how i personally thought players should be. And the first few spots were actually rifleman and not smg.

Modify that to POINTS per Minute or Hour. If it is points rather than deaths, it encourages the extra teamwork in being in capzones and resupply etc on regular RO. If the team oriented points can be boosted in other ways more than kill points this can work better in HOS.

A lot of the ideas here are failing to take into account the entire purpose of every RO map so far, the entire game (all the ones I've played in 3 and a half years anyway), is that the number of players you kill is not important, all that matters is that you are helping your team capture or defend capzones. The killing is just a side effect of the team objectives. Sometimes you kill more than others and some roles such as sniper and MG are often killing to cover those zones from outside of them, but you get a lot more points from being in capzones. I think this is the way it should stay. Once killing becomes the focus pointwise, you lose the teamwork. The objectives need to stay the primary focus and how to best get your team into them to cap or defend. Points should be given in various ways to encourage that rather than just killing.

 

[Zetsumei]

In essense points/hour is the best system on paper, as points represent the amount of work you have done towards your team.

The issue with it though is that point systems are never perfect, so a ranking based on points can become meaningless. Point system are prone to exploitation on the methods to get points the easiest, this can lead to deterioration of gameplay.

- In public games, plenty of times do i see people capping a capzone to just leave it afterwards to go to the next without any defense, as defending the place doesnt give any points.
- When i'm a MG, i get seriously annoyed by having 5 people to move out in open grounds to get shot just to ressuply me preferably from inside my line of fire rather than focussing on the enemy.
- Points are based on people their loves for doing something, rather than actual effect for the team. Giving someone ammo, is something that is not that loved by players so its rewarded with 5 points, yet an mg having 1 more clip does not give you as a team a major advantage.

In general i like point systems, if they could measure an absolute value of teamplay. Thats why i like ideas as a kill/point bonus for the winning team as no matter what happends the goal is to win that map.
But if a team absolutely works well together, they wont give an mg more ammo than he needs, and they wont put every single person in a capzone and then lay it to waste.

It will push people that want good stats (and believe me there are loads) to play in a certain way, that actually does not offer the best method to win the map.
And that is what annoys me the most as that is my goal in the game. Especially since in publics
i'm the guy that is either defending an older capzone rather than attacking, or being at a flank taking out mgs and snipers, or being just ahead of the capzone stopping the enemies from getting into the capzone. I will get 0 points for my team effort, as loads of infinite way that you help your team cannot or are not accounted in the point system so by default would get lower stats than others.

Now taking kills/hour is just another system that people will try to exploit. The difference is that killing people and alot during a timespan is not that easy, with most enemies being around the capzone.
The only way to make loads of kills, is being where the action is, which should be around the capzones, and the only way to make a good amount of kills within a time span is by not dying.

Kills/hour on paper might seem that once people exploit it that things like teamplay will completely vanish, but as i said the reason i liked it was because at the old rostats, it showed the stats that showed to me what i thought of good players (back then the community was small enough to pretty much know everybody) and not only people that were good shots, but people that capped objectives and helped the team go forward.

According to sepherioth the owner of rostats, some important features for the default ut2k4 stat logging were taken out of the code. So making a stat system could not use the ut2k4 base and would need to be done from scratch. He started on something with but dissapeared later on.

------------------
So in short about what i said above.

Points/Hour would be the most ideal, as long as the point system is more exploit proof, and covers a more complete range of awards for teamwork than it does now.

Kills/Hour showed by simple emperical data under the current cap and point system, to give the best results conform my personal thoughts about what players, played the best, in both individual skill and teamwork. This in a community of 2 populated servers where i played 2-3 hours per day at, and thus knowing most people.

Although in general, best imo would be to show a variety of options, and allow people to sort for them self what they find more important. And sort players just like with rostats by points/hour or kills/hour or kill/death ratio. Whatever floats someones boat. Preferably without an actual ranking of players, but the ability to compare between players that you know.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

excellent summary. agreed.

 

[gauss_]

my opinion is we need an additional depiction of the kill death ratio client side based, at the moment it is just possible for the server to look at K/D ratio. The points do not depict the skill/strength accurately, it is too easy to get on top just with capping and resuppling. Maybe the user should decide by himself via configuration settings wether he wants points or K/D ratio for the ingame stats.

 

[Zetsumei]

Personally i feel kill death ratios are not optimal in games with respawning. As sometimes people should just get a lower kill death ratio by simply going for the objective.

Thats why i aim for kills/minute simply because it gave the best representation in the RO mod. And then only collecting stats with 16+ people and collecting stats seperately for tank focussed games and infantry focussed games.