RO-Lazur50_beta2
- Thread starter Drecks
- Start date
I've played this a few times on TWB now. Overall, I have to say that I like the previous version better. I felt like the previous version fit 50 people reasonably well, actually.
Anyway, here's a few thoughts.
1.) Why do the Germans have two snipers? Snipers are basically worthless on the map, from what I can tell. The lines of sight available are no better suited to a sniper on this map than they are to a regular rifleman. Once the battle goes indoors the snipers are even less useful. I would either get rid of the sniper class on both sides altogether or provide more hidey-holes for them on both sides. Or perhaps more OBVIOUS hidey holes (if there are any, I had a tough time finding them).
2.) The map is confusing as hell after the first two spawns. It is not particularly intuitive. Part of this is due to the multi-layered nature of indoor combat and the fact that it doesn't work well with the objective map. That's to be expected, though. The other part is that a lot of pathways don't seem to have a lot of purpose to them. I'd say try to funnel your combat a bit more. Keep the action focused so people don't wander off randomly. Also, you might want to make it absolutely clear which doors can and cannot be opened. It's quite frustrating to be running around cluelessly, only to realize (a) in THIS room you could open the door and move on, but (b) in THAT room the doors are all closed off. Some visual cue like rubble in front of the door or something.
3.) You have GOT to fix the insta-death minefields. When the Russians capture the first two objectives, literally, INSTANTLY, anyone who was in previously legitimate areas will vaporize. That ain't cool and it costs reinforcements and affects map balance. Plus, it pisses off the german team. Give them, say, 15 seconds to get out of there and THEN vaporize 'em. But something has to be done there.
4.) The chemical plant is by far the most exciting battle. Previously, the big fight was out in the open in the train yards and such, and the indoor fighting was kind of lackluster. Now I think the chemical plant is where the action is. It seems this is also the make-or-break point in the map. The "interim" objectives on either end of it are just that -- interim objectives. They're quickly taken by the Russians. You may want to revisit their design to figure out how the Germans can defend them a bit easier. Personally, I see no point in an easily taken objective, UNLESS you're trying to slow DOWN the Russian advance and the idea is for the Germans to fall back to the more defensible position. Kind of like the interim objectives on Berezina (IE: crossroads, farm, AT guns). If that's the case, then I guess we just need smarter German teams.
I'll try to post further comments when I've had more time to play. Honestly, that instant-kill thing is the most annoying aspect, though. That and the maze-like layout of the map. I'm not saying you need to have a straight line from start to finish a la Gorlitz (although I do love that map), but I do think you need to make the map less confusing and have less pointless corridors and such. At the very least, make the corridors and areas look like they served some function before the city was a warzone instead of "We put a hallway here because...uh......the boss told us to."
Anyway, here's a few thoughts.
1.) Why do the Germans have two snipers? Snipers are basically worthless on the map, from what I can tell. The lines of sight available are no better suited to a sniper on this map than they are to a regular rifleman. Once the battle goes indoors the snipers are even less useful. I would either get rid of the sniper class on both sides altogether or provide more hidey-holes for them on both sides. Or perhaps more OBVIOUS hidey holes (if there are any, I had a tough time finding them).
2.) The map is confusing as hell after the first two spawns. It is not particularly intuitive. Part of this is due to the multi-layered nature of indoor combat and the fact that it doesn't work well with the objective map. That's to be expected, though. The other part is that a lot of pathways don't seem to have a lot of purpose to them. I'd say try to funnel your combat a bit more. Keep the action focused so people don't wander off randomly. Also, you might want to make it absolutely clear which doors can and cannot be opened. It's quite frustrating to be running around cluelessly, only to realize (a) in THIS room you could open the door and move on, but (b) in THAT room the doors are all closed off. Some visual cue like rubble in front of the door or something.
3.) You have GOT to fix the insta-death minefields. When the Russians capture the first two objectives, literally, INSTANTLY, anyone who was in previously legitimate areas will vaporize. That ain't cool and it costs reinforcements and affects map balance. Plus, it pisses off the german team. Give them, say, 15 seconds to get out of there and THEN vaporize 'em. But something has to be done there.
4.) The chemical plant is by far the most exciting battle. Previously, the big fight was out in the open in the train yards and such, and the indoor fighting was kind of lackluster. Now I think the chemical plant is where the action is. It seems this is also the make-or-break point in the map. The "interim" objectives on either end of it are just that -- interim objectives. They're quickly taken by the Russians. You may want to revisit their design to figure out how the Germans can defend them a bit easier. Personally, I see no point in an easily taken objective, UNLESS you're trying to slow DOWN the Russian advance and the idea is for the Germans to fall back to the more defensible position. Kind of like the interim objectives on Berezina (IE: crossroads, farm, AT guns). If that's the case, then I guess we just need smarter German teams.
I'll try to post further comments when I've had more time to play. Honestly, that instant-kill thing is the most annoying aspect, though. That and the maze-like layout of the map. I'm not saying you need to have a straight line from start to finish a la Gorlitz (although I do love that map), but I do think you need to make the map less confusing and have less pointless corridors and such. At the very least, make the corridors and areas look like they served some function before the city was a warzone instead of "We put a hallway here because...uh......the boss told us to."
Good post Solo,
The next version alread has the cap sequence changed. The first two objectives needs to be taken one by one now. The goal was to create more outside fights and give the sniper more options.
Still my thought is that noone is forced to be a sniper and you always have people who want to snipe.
Like Zhitomir i tried to spread as much stuff in front of non usable doors as possible. And even did more in this version. Still i can't add stuff for any non usable door and here i rely on the intelligence of the average player. A hard nutt i know.
But when someone has played the map a few times you know which door to use and which not. To make stuff more clear i closed down some areas which had no use. And in other areas i opened up some walls to make it more intuitive.
I will try not to forget the instant death thing. I never noticed it but that happens when you have to spread your foucs on to many stuff
Thanks for the good post and yep my boss told me to build more hallways.
The next version alread has the cap sequence changed. The first two objectives needs to be taken one by one now. The goal was to create more outside fights and give the sniper more options.
Still my thought is that noone is forced to be a sniper and you always have people who want to snipe.
Like Zhitomir i tried to spread as much stuff in front of non usable doors as possible. And even did more in this version. Still i can't add stuff for any non usable door and here i rely on the intelligence of the average player. A hard nutt i know.
But when someone has played the map a few times you know which door to use and which not. To make stuff more clear i closed down some areas which had no use. And in other areas i opened up some walls to make it more intuitive.
I will try not to forget the instant death thing. I never noticed it but that happens when you have to spread your foucs on to many stuff
Thanks for the good post and yep my boss told me to build more hallways.
On the spawnzone thing not sure if this was fixed in b2 so not sure which one I was playing but , on the raised walkway over the traintracks neare southern after the russians capped that the new spawnzone seemed to end at the very end of that raised hallway. So russians could come to the top of the stairs stand and aim their shot and Germans could not touch them which was very annoying when trying to hold that point. so pull it back a bit so Russians have to expose themselves to shoot. This may be different now though with your changes.
Any chance of just having the PPSh in the future? I mean I'm pretty sure the PPD pretty much phased out by this time.
This must have been in Beta 1 cause in Beta 2 the entire spawn already moved to create a more logical route for the Allies.
Good post Solo,
The next version alread has the cap sequence changed. The first two objectives needs to be taken one by one now. The goal was to create more outside fights and give the sniper more options.
Still my thought is that noone is forced to be a sniper and you always have people who want to snipe.
Like Zhitomir i tried to spread as much stuff in front of non usable doors as possible. And even did more in this version. Still i can't add stuff for any non usable door and here i rely on the intelligence of the average player. A hard nutt i know.
But when someone has played the map a few times you know which door to use and which not. To make stuff more clear i closed down some areas which had no use. And in other areas i opened up some walls to make it more intuitive.
I will try not to forget the instant death thing. I never noticed it but that happens when you have to spread your foucs on to many stuff
Thanks for the good post and yep my boss told me to build more hallways.
My pleasure, and I hope the comments help.
I loved the original version of the map, but right now the map kind of frustrates me. Maybe it'll grow on me over time once I learn the ins and outs of it (and the insta-death spawn thing goes away -- which I think is really my biggest gripe. Which probably means the map is good and I'm getting overly focused on that one issue which can be easily fixed).
I think after the first positions are taken, the only other open area battles seem to go quite quickly. Not sure why that is, though. I'll need to play this one from the Russian side a few times to get the hang of it.
Oh, and I think there's already a PPSh in the map, but for whatever reason I see a lot of PPDs around, too. Again, not sure what that's about since I haven't played the Russian side yet.
I'll say one thing, though. The chemical plant battle can be really intense, especially firing back and forth between the balconies and the one room off to the side with the windows. That, and this map REALLY requires a savvy Russian squad leader who knows how and when to use smoke.
The insta death minefield issue is a problem with the minefield volumes in general and not so much a map specific issue. The impression I get is that the volume has already counted down the time that the player has been within it, but will not activate its killswitch until the spawn moves up, and which point, in the logic of the volume, the player has been in it for an excess of time. I am probably wrong but this was the best conclusion I could come to in regard to the issue. I'm trying to sort the issue out using Triggers in my map, to allow players a grace period to withdraw before the minefield activates.
Couldnt you just use and AI scripted trigger with a wait timer as an intermediary before turning on the mine field?
Yeah what I meant was just have PPSh's because the PPD is overused in my opinion.
That people notice any difference between the two i game is highly remarkable. But that's me i play a game and at a certain point don't
care what they use. The weapon excisted at that time so it's possible it got used.
I think the PPSh has a SLIGHTLY higher rate of fire, and may be SLIGHTLY more accurate at range (longer barrel) but it also has slightly higher recoil. Outside of that, it's pretty much a question of whether you prefer open or hooded sights. I have no preference there.
Anyway, while some of the "maze" aspect of the map is cool -- because often the path leads you somewhere useful -- I think it's important to keep the paths at least somewhat intuitive. Making at least one or two paths that just "make sense" will cut down on a LOT of the complaints, I think. Of course, I'd expect those paths to see the most fighting too, but that's where the secondary and tertiary paths get fun -- when you can sneak into a really good firing position because you found a path no one ever takes. So, maybe the solution is to cut down on the dead end paths. Just a thought.
Anyway, while some of the "maze" aspect of the map is cool -- because often the path leads you somewhere useful -- I think it's important to keep the paths at least somewhat intuitive. Making at least one or two paths that just "make sense" will cut down on a LOT of the complaints, I think. Of course, I'd expect those paths to see the most fighting too, but that's where the secondary and tertiary paths get fun -- when you can sneak into a really good firing position because you found a path no one ever takes. So, maybe the solution is to cut down on the dead end paths. Just a thought.
Minefields: Old topic of many maps. Mappers have no control over it. Vehicles typically survive until they exit the advancing minefields and try to re-enter. Players on foot go *poof*.
Maze: I liken it to a hospital. Put some freaking colored lines on the floor already.
"YO! DUDE, follow the red line!"
"Hey! They went down the blue line and then switched to Yellow for X-Ray...I mean Yellow for 'Generator Room'.". Something like that.
Maze: I liken it to a hospital. Put some freaking colored lines on the floor already.
"YO! DUDE, follow the red line!"
"Hey! They went down the blue line and then switched to Yellow for X-Ray...I mean Yellow for 'Generator Room'.". Something like that.
I for one will have to agree to disagree. I think many, many routes, rooms, doorways, etc. make this map more enjoyable, and more realistic. This is how it looked in actuality, and makes for better teamwork, in clearing rooms, looking where you're going, etc, even if it takes more time to do so. I hate nothing more than a straight line, linear map, with only ONE way or avenue to each cap zone, including the last. I think this map is excellent as is, and have played this many times on a 50 player server, and everytime I play it by going different routes to the objective makes it more enjoyable....
One point on the "Many routes = realistic" claim. Anyone noticed that right at the start of the map, the Germans can wander into ALL of the German cap zones they can't capture yet? And yet, they still can't capture them for some reason. That, to me, is not realistic. Too many routes can lead to "WTF?" scenarios where cap zones are wide open, accessible, and totally undefended....yet not capturable.
The map's "path" currently is almost a complete circle. You finish the map just about where you started. To my way of thinking, the initial two cap zones should be cappable first, and then ALL of the rest of the cap zones should be open because, well, they ARE open, they're just supposed to be captured in order. Right now, I find that to be the biggest flaw of the map. Well, that and the >poof< minefield. That thing is gonna end up seriously irritating people. At the very least, you may want to give the Germans a few extra reinforcements for just such an occasion as when 5-8 of their guys simultaneously spontaneously combust.
The map's "path" currently is almost a complete circle. You finish the map just about where you started. To my way of thinking, the initial two cap zones should be cappable first, and then ALL of the rest of the cap zones should be open because, well, they ARE open, they're just supposed to be captured in order. Right now, I find that to be the biggest flaw of the map. Well, that and the >poof< minefield. That thing is gonna end up seriously irritating people. At the very least, you may want to give the Germans a few extra reinforcements for just such an occasion as when 5-8 of their guys simultaneously spontaneously combust.
What did you drink ?
The Germans can walk there cause they own these areas. Allies can go there that's true and maybe that's what you mean. But this has been the same in any previous version. While going there won't bring the Allies any benefit at all. And a vast chance of getting shot by Germans. As they spawn nearby. I could even close these areas down by spawn protection.
And i'm not claiming to much of realism since Wateverovko.
But i prefer goodlooking stuff.
So Solo won't play this one, what a loss
Monk.
I think Solo had a valid point when he ment the Russians can run all over the map at the maps start. I think he ment Russians but made a type fault and wrote Germans.
So i made some spawnprotections for Russian No Go Areas at certain points
in the battle.
Yeah, I just mistyped. I did indeed mean the Russians.
I didn't notice it previously -- mostly because I was (as Russians) focusing my attention on the eastern railyard area (which is a pain to get into, and probably intentionally so).
Even adding the spawn protection points so the Russians can't go into certain areas until others are captured won't quite change the underlying issue that the pre-determined path of which points can be captured doesn't quite make sense. I would say any position that is accessible by foot should be capturable once the first "line" is captured. So once the first two spots are captured, the Warehouse, Generator Room, and "open field" thing would open up as capturable. Any area you had to "work your way into" would logically be uncapturable. So, given the map layout, I'd think that after the first two objectives are captured, you have the next three, and the final objective to be captured would be the chemical plant.
The thing about adding the spawn protections is that it'll seem like the map is "cheating" some how and can break immersion (which may not matter all that much). I tend to think maps should be laid out logically so that capture positions don't seem arbitrary and instead are places that legitimately make good tactical strongpoints or are at least places you'd need to secure to be in a good tactical position. All of your capture points do that, but by having the order pre-determined while the areas are accessible (or inaccessible due to "minefields") you undercut their tactical value.
I'd say if you can make them physically inaccessible for the Russians, you'll be in better shape. This may mean cutting off a few routes and making some approaches to capture points more linear. Or you can leave the map as open but figure that the Germans' attention will be split amongst objectives. Not sure how well that'll play, though.
If the realism thing isn't that crucial, then I'd just say add the spawn protection to keep Russians from getting distracted too much and to refocus the battle, and you'll be fine.
I didn't notice it previously -- mostly because I was (as Russians) focusing my attention on the eastern railyard area (which is a pain to get into, and probably intentionally so).
Even adding the spawn protection points so the Russians can't go into certain areas until others are captured won't quite change the underlying issue that the pre-determined path of which points can be captured doesn't quite make sense. I would say any position that is accessible by foot should be capturable once the first "line" is captured. So once the first two spots are captured, the Warehouse, Generator Room, and "open field" thing would open up as capturable. Any area you had to "work your way into" would logically be uncapturable. So, given the map layout, I'd think that after the first two objectives are captured, you have the next three, and the final objective to be captured would be the chemical plant.
The thing about adding the spawn protections is that it'll seem like the map is "cheating" some how and can break immersion (which may not matter all that much). I tend to think maps should be laid out logically so that capture positions don't seem arbitrary and instead are places that legitimately make good tactical strongpoints or are at least places you'd need to secure to be in a good tactical position. All of your capture points do that, but by having the order pre-determined while the areas are accessible (or inaccessible due to "minefields") you undercut their tactical value.
I'd say if you can make them physically inaccessible for the Russians, you'll be in better shape. This may mean cutting off a few routes and making some approaches to capture points more linear. Or you can leave the map as open but figure that the Germans' attention will be split amongst objectives. Not sure how well that'll play, though.
If the realism thing isn't that crucial, then I'd just say add the spawn protection to keep Russians from getting distracted too much and to refocus the battle, and you'll be fine.
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