RS Rising Storm SMGs too powerfull
- Thread starter 1conu59
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Both teams have SMG's, so I don't think it breaks the balance.
Ofcourse, in a close combat map, the SMG will have an edge over the rifleman. But the balance is in the numbers.
It's like saying "the commander is unbalanced, because he can call in arty!"
Ofcourse, in a close combat map, the SMG will have an edge over the rifleman. But the balance is in the numbers.
It's like saying "the commander is unbalanced, because he can call in arty!"
I've been sniped at 150m with a few short bursts. I would consider anything outside of 50m long range, since that is the generally agreed upon effective range of SMGs.
Im going to go ahead and clear some false assumptions by using the actual code directly from the game -
PPSH41 and Type 100 have the same spread - .01 (In some special case the PPSH gains a advanced spread of .002 but i am not too sure what makes this happen, perhaps the drum upgrade but that doesn't make sense, perhaps the singleshot mode uses that)
PPSH41 and Type 100 have the same damage- 50 per bullet
PPSH41 has a slightly faster fire rate, - 909.09 rpm(not too sure why they didnt just even it at 900) vs 800
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Now we get to something that is actually true in the video -
The Drummed PPSH41 has-
Max Vertical recoil of - 170
Minimal vertical recoil of -105
Max Horizontal recoil of - 105
Min Horizontal Recoil of - 85
Now the Type 100 44 version is blessed with the recoil of
Max vertical recoil -125
Min vertical recoil - 100
Fixed Horizontal recoil of - 130
PPSH41 and Type 100 have the same spread - .01 (In some special case the PPSH gains a advanced spread of .002 but i am not too sure what makes this happen, perhaps the drum upgrade but that doesn't make sense, perhaps the singleshot mode uses that)
PPSH41 and Type 100 have the same damage- 50 per bullet
PPSH41 has a slightly faster fire rate, - 909.09 rpm(not too sure why they didnt just even it at 900) vs 800
______________________________
Now we get to something that is actually true in the video -
The Drummed PPSH41 has-
Max Vertical recoil of - 170
Minimal vertical recoil of -105
Max Horizontal recoil of - 105
Min Horizontal Recoil of - 85
Now the Type 100 44 version is blessed with the recoil of
Max vertical recoil -125
Min vertical recoil - 100
Fixed Horizontal recoil of - 130
But the recoil of the PPSH is much higher.
Edit: All the info JagdpantherX posted about recoil looked like a Signature, no wonder I missed it. xp
Edit: All the info JagdpantherX posted about recoil looked like a Signature, no wonder I missed it. xp
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TBH i think you cannot compare real world recoil which is a force based output with a postion based feature as how it is in RO.
Personally never had any issue with the recoil in Roost, its just a matter of moving your mouse down with a constant speed. Its a trick and just requires a couple of minutes to master. (heck you could even write a mouse macro/ keybind to do it)
I only used rifles in Ost yet could handle smgs ok,
ROOSTRecoil - YouTube
sure if you do nothing it will point at the sky. In a similar sense there are plenty of videos of real people using a wrong pose and have the weapon pointing towards the sky (or their own head).
"its a ****ing magnum" -Woman hit in face by gun - YouTube
It all comes down to personal preference in the end, I like the model of RO of making the gun pull up so you pull it down. But there exists no realistic amount you have to pull your gun down.
Should the recoil system automatically simulate the muscles of an experienced shooter, that will automatically go to the same position again. Or should it not simulate any shooter, where the force related properties are simply simulated through a position task, requiring the player itself to actually control the "muscles" instead of the character?
Personally I like to think of it in the method of the last
, as that would allow people to actually learn to handle the weaponry. Instead of having their character handling that.With regards to RS weaponry, they aren't that different from RO2 weaponry in terms of stats. Some changes have been made based on realistic properties, and relative differences from people that shot the weapons.
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Most smgs have a stated effective range far in excess of 50m. They're usually more 100-150 metres.
The only issue I see really is that Japan has far more smgs than they had irl, and that the nambu pistol round seems to do fairly decent damage in game. The 8mm nambu round was pretty pathetic irl. It compared very badly against the 9mm/.45/7.62mm rounds.
The type 100 was supposed to be a rather shoddy SMG and closer to the British Sten than the MP40 in performance.
Unfortunately, information on this gun is sparse.
Superficially, you can see that:
-Unlike the heavy PPSH Drum, it had high cyclic, but light weight. This implies more recoil.
-It was an unbalanced weapon, so firing it accurately would be more of a challenge.
-The 8mm round was weaker than the 9mm, and extensive foliage like those present in RS would easily distort its flight path. However, in the game you shoot through the jungle like air.
-The type 100 in RS is OP, IMHO.
Unfortunately, information on this gun is sparse.
Superficially, you can see that:
-Unlike the heavy PPSH Drum, it had high cyclic, but light weight. This implies more recoil.
-It was an unbalanced weapon, so firing it accurately would be more of a challenge.
-The 8mm round was weaker than the 9mm, and extensive foliage like those present in RS would easily distort its flight path. However, in the game you shoot through the jungle like air.
-The type 100 in RS is OP, IMHO.
Controlling auto recoil in real life is not about "pulling down", much less doing so at a constant or consistent rate. The "constant and consistent" aspect is probably the worst part, because it ensures that in-game, firing long bursts is actually more accurate than short bursts, because that gives you more time to feel out and match the weapons' climb - maintaining single smooth movement rather than many repeated jerks. That isn't isn't natural or realistic - it's pretty much the opposite of real life.TBH i think you cannot compare real world recoil which is a force based output with a postion based feature as how it is in RO.
Personally never had any issue with the recoil in Roost, its just a matter of moving your mouse down with a constant speed. Its a trick and just requires a couple of minutes to master. (heck you could even write a mouse macro/ keybind to do it)
sure if you do nothing it will point at the sky. In a similar sense there are plenty of videos of real people using a wrong pose and have the weapon pointing towards the sky (or their own head).
It all comes down to personal preference in the end, I like the model of RO of making the gun pull up so you pull it down. But there exists no realistic amount you have to pull your gun down.
Should the recoil system automatically simulate the muscles of an experienced shooter, that will automatically go to the same position again. Or should it not simulate any shooter, where the force related properties are simply simulated through a position task, requiring the player itself to actually control the "muscles" instead of the character?
Personally I like to think of it in the method of the last
The amount of recoil for SMG's in OST was a total ****ing joke. I have fired various SMG's in real life and I can tell you that's plainly not what it feels like - barring fluke incompetent soccer mom incidents [mind you that is the same group that broke tv's and people's noses by accidentally throwing their wiimotes], there's no way anyone is going to wind up pointing at the sky with a measly 9mm, 8mm, or 7.62x25mm SMG.
Panzer Jager's mod pretty much nails it - the only auto weapon with OST-level recoil is the AVT40, which is accurate to real life - many grown men with military experience have struggled to keep rifles like the AVT, M14, and G3A3 on target - sometimes outright stumbling backwards, even during short burst fire. Meanwhile, SMG's like the MP40 and PPSH require only very subtle pressure to keep on target, and the Mkb-42 falls somewhere in between. That's how it's supposed to be.
In short, pulling down is not an aspect of controlling recoil in real life. If you're firing from the shoulder with any reasonably decent basic stance, there's only so much the muzzle can possibly rise, and it naturally falls back down close to the original position after each short or burst. The most accurate way to fire is through repeated short bursts, not holding the trigger down as you armwrestle the thing into a steady position over the course of 30 rounds.
If you look at Panzer Jager's recoil, Arma, or even Rainbow Six Vegas - as in real life, "pulling down" actually can cause worst accuracy, as you are more likely to overcompensate and jerk the weapon too far in one direction. You still might apply a tiny, subtle amount of pressure to get optimal burst groups, but it's actually pretty difficult to push your view up 90 degrees, and doesn't require as minimum sensitivity setting to keep from pulling your mouse clear off the desk every time you fire. Adjusting your aim between each burst and squeezing off the exact number of rounds you want, as in real life, becomes much more important than the fictional "pulling down" mechanic RO1 created.
This is much closer to the optimal balance. It doesn't come even close to eliminating player skill at controlling recoil, it just shifts the player skill away from the arm-wrestling match, and toward more subtle, legit components. The truth is you CAN make a comparison between real life and the game, because even without taking a ruler to the screen, you can tell when a weapon is just rising WAY too much with each shot compared to anyone and everyone firing in real life. Moreover, the ridiculous degree of recoil seen in OST pretty much throws real life recoil relationships to the wind - if all weapons point at the sky after 3 shots regardless of the weapon's caliber or weight, then there is no difference between an LMG, rifle, or SMG firing in auto.
Lastly, building your game to be that mouse dependent is simply bad practice for usability - you're forcing people who prefer low mouse sensitivities to turn their sensitivity up an arbitrary amount just to fire their gun properly, and tossing any possibility of gamepad support or console versions straight out the window, because analog sticks just can't output the "jerking motions" necessary for the kind of exaggerated recoil control represented in a game like RO1.
I've shot a Mac10 in real life, which fires a much higher-recoil cartridge than 8mm or 7.62x25 at an even faster cyclic rate, and it's even smaller and lighter than the Sten or Type 100. It still didn't feel nearly as inaccurate and impractical to control as RO2's PPSH, so I'm pretty much positive that neither the PPSH nor Type 100 should perform like that.
The reason this comment doesn't work is because no one has actually made a convincing argument for why nerfing SMG's is better for gameplay. Balancing weapons on an even scale might make sense if EVERYONE had access to the specialized classes like Assault, but that's not the case. This isn't Team Fortress, where everyone can pick any class and the fight's supposed to be balanced no matter which class goes up against which. The game is made up of a majority of rifleman relying on a minority of specialized classes (Assault, MG, Sniper, Squad Leader) to provide additional firepower beyond that of a bolt action rifle.
If you nerf that additional firepower to be equal to a bolt action rifle, then the entire purpose of those limited-availability classes is defeated, and the game just becomes a bolt-action turkey shoot where a few people have weapons which deliver bolt-action firepower in a roundabout way.
So what the "gameplay > realism" ultimately comes down to is whining "waah, I don't like getting killed by SMG's when I'm a rifleman". There is a difference between true gameplay balance, and coddling whiners.
Moreover, since this is a realistic tactical shooter, we should be discussing how to alter the game parameters to balance the real life attributes, not vice versa. In real life, weapons are never balanced, yet wars take a big toll on both sides regardless, so we should always be paying more attention to the aspects which evened the scales regardless of which weapons were superior...otherwise we may as well just go play COD.
I agree. The reason SMGs seem more powerful is because there are certain things that are not represented well in game. For example, the amount of horizontal sway during firing is definitely lacking. My real life full auto experience is limited to assault rifles, but I'm sure SMGs still have quite a bit of horizontal jump.
I dont know why we're losing us with all of this detail : in reality Smg it's like that.. in ro1 like this...
We speak about RO2 a video games which demand high abilities to be handle.
Smgs on Red Orchestra 2 is what they are just to balance the game and create a reason to play bolt rifle. So yes compar to reality the weapon is probably less accurate (and not as much as that) BUT this does not prevent good player to make a lot of kill with it and nobody complain about that since the release of the game so it's work and well balance.
In Rising storm SMGs it's too easy to handle and all normal players can realy make heavy damage with that with no specific abilities. Honnestly I don't care if you change nothing but I have to tell you that it's a loss in the high abilities level which Ro2 ask for.
do what you have to do but don't forget to be objective ! It's probably hard to spend many hours to build a game and loose against better player than us but it's how the world is made. You can make an easy game or you can make a difficult game, but you agree to not be the best on it.
For people who misunderstanding the direction that Redorchestra2 took, I invite you to read this article : http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/
Nothing must to be done to make the task easiest for the player.
We speak about RO2 a video games which demand high abilities to be handle.
Smgs on Red Orchestra 2 is what they are just to balance the game and create a reason to play bolt rifle. So yes compar to reality the weapon is probably less accurate (and not as much as that) BUT this does not prevent good player to make a lot of kill with it and nobody complain about that since the release of the game so it's work and well balance.
In Rising storm SMGs it's too easy to handle and all normal players can realy make heavy damage with that with no specific abilities. Honnestly I don't care if you change nothing but I have to tell you that it's a loss in the high abilities level which Ro2 ask for.
do what you have to do but don't forget to be objective ! It's probably hard to spend many hours to build a game and loose against better player than us but it's how the world is made. You can make an easy game or you can make a difficult game, but you agree to not be the best on it.
For people who misunderstanding the direction that Redorchestra2 took, I invite you to read this article : http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/
Nothing must to be done to make the task easiest for the player.
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So I can conclude, you actually didn't read what i actually said :\.
In real life you control the gun by your muscles, whether guns climb up or down of course would depend on the leverage, but guns like a mg34 as I said fire in a straight line so there is no leverage to begin with while they got a hefty recoil.
The position control based method of the RO series is not what happens in real life, but is a system that can be employed in games where people control their character with a mouse, which in general can only accept position input and not any force input/output.
However it can be used as an alternative method that is rather intuitive, for people to control a weapon themselves, instead of having it automatically done for you.
Even though things like joysticks with haptic feedback exist that would logically be more ideal to use (but still not be able to model the correct forces) nobody would use such a device.
Since everybody uses a mouse which is a position input device, it makes sense to replace the force control task of a real gun with a position based task.
Is this realistic, yes and no. Its realistic in the behaviour you can obtain in accuracy of shooting, while taking into account real individual skill. Is it realistic in the absolute sense no, as in real life its not a position based task, but it sure beats the hell imo out of other systems often employed.
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Your getting the wrong idea from me, im just saying that good gameplay should always be prioritized over being realistic.
That includes lowing RO2 PPSH recoil to lower amounts. It would not be fun for PPSHs to have low recoil, we don't need to make bolt action users totally useless.
And RO2 being realistic is a bit of a misused term. RO2/RS use realism were it fits into gameplay, rather than put in gameplay were it fits into realism. You can see this in pretty much nearly every part of gameplay.
No, I don't think you read my post. When controlling recoil in real life, your weight alone does most of the work in keeping the weapon steady; that's the entire point of having a stock, and postioning the weapon against your shoulder. The portion of recoil controlled by your weight doesn't require any more effort than standing still or sitting on your *** - it's basic physics; an object at rest tends to stay at rest when acted upon by an object with much lower mass and weight.
In short, the amount of recoil seen in RO1 represents the muscle effort that might be required if you were firing the weapon without a stock, without the weapon pressed to your shoulder. Effort is a subjective and relative, but reason dictates a line be drawn somewhere.
In short, claiming that the recoil in RO1 is proportional to the effort of muscle control required to keep a shouldered, stocked SMG steady is a lot like claiming the player should be required to rapidly tap a key at all times in order to stay standing upright, because in real life a certain degree of muscle effort is required to stay standing.
The amount of recoil seen in RO2's MP40, or in Panzer Jager's mod, is a much better representation of the section of recoil that actually requires any muscle effort to control - the part that's left over after your body weight does the majority of the work. Controlling SMG's in real life is not like arm wrestling or playing tug of war.
No, you're just excusing lazy game design. A game which purports to authentically portray historical battles obligates itself to avoid altering things in-game from their real-life counterparts wherever an alternate solution can easily be realized. The truth is that most balance issues can be solved without altering reality if you dig deeper for a way to solve the problem, rather than just slapping a simple arcade mechanic on it without thinking things through.
For example, you people seem to be under the illusion that the PPSH is "overpowered" because its drum magazine is so much larger than the MP40's stick mag. If TWI had dug deeper and not lazily resorted to grossly exagerating the weapon's recoil, they would have come up with multiple solutions:
A) The PPSH did not really grant the Russians an unfair advantage IRL, because the German's used them too! Especially during the battle of Stalingrad where supplies were short, the Germans issued hundreds of thousands of captured PPSH's to their own troops as the "MP-41R". If this was realistically represented in-game, then half of all German assault troops would have PPSH's too, and things would be much more "fair".
B) Even though the PPSH drum could technically hold 71 rounds, the spring could not actually handle it, and in practice it was only loaded to 65 rounds to avoid jamming. Moreoever, the PPSH's higher likelihood to jam isn't even represented in-game, despite the fact that it easily could be, and would go far to balance the weapon's larger magazine capacity. Jamming on all self-loading and fully-automatic weapons would go a long way to making bolt-action rifles more valuable.
C) The PPSH's higher cyclic rate makes it harder to squeeze off an apropriate number of rounds per burst, and more prone to wasting ammunition in full auto, even without the exagerated recoil. The MP40 is less likely to expend extra rounds putting bullets in a guy who's already dead, and doesn't require you to stop and change modes just to squeeze off a single shot. Even if the PPSH were properly implemented with lower recoil, it'd merely be a matter of personal preference whether the Germans assault troops with MP40's were better off or worse off.
It wouldn't be fun based on what evidence? Right now the PPSH's recoil is so exagerated, it basically forces you to use the weapon in a retarded rambo way which is boring to execute. Rather than intelligently dispatching enemies with short, accurate bursts, you are forced to magdump like an idiot in order to make a reliable kill. It's something of a vicious cycle - like LMG hipfire, people resort to mindless rambo PPSH tactics, because unrealistic restrictions [cannot deploy here, PPSH recoil] prohibit using the weapon properly, which causes more people to complain that the weapons need nerfs, which only strengthens the weapons' need to be used improperly in order to succeed.
Riflemen with bolt-actions are riflemen with bolt-actions. Guess what, bolt-actions weren't railguns in real life, and SMG's weren't pea shooters. Bolt actions aren't useless, riflemen just need to play to their role, moving under support fire from the specialized classes, rather than trying rambo through everything using their rifles like a 12 gauge loaded with slugs. If you want your railgun to always have enough firepower to go toe-to-toe with everything else, go play Quake.
And guess what, the best answer to improve things in this area comes from real life...the rifleman could probably receive a few more grenades, and the "elite rifleman" class should be eliminated in favor of all rifleman having a random ~1/8 chance to spawn with a semi-auto. This way, the game throws them a bone once in a while, and the semi-auto firepower is distributed more evenly, rather than letting one jackass with a high ping hog the SVT-40 for the whole match.
And you advocate using bad game design.
Option A) Armies lose even less distinction from each other by allowing players to use captured weapons en-mass. At least now usually only heroes use captured weapons on most servers.
Option B) Nobody likes more RNG in their FPS game. Bad design for the superior player to catch someone offgaurd only to lose due to a ****ty dice roll.
Option C) This is already in-game? Not sure what your getting at.
And the rest I'm not really understanding you 100%. At medium range its exponentially more effective to burst than magdump. It would be even easier to magdump at farther ranges with lower recoil. And of course at short range you magdump. You would do the exact same thing even if there was low recoil.
And in the end the PPSH w/ drum mag in the current build is still superior. Don't worry, thats why germans get MG34.